Talk:Avars (Caucasus)

Material on Caucasian Avars, with sources

Avars or Caucasian Avars are a modern people of Caucasus, mainly of Daghestan, which are the predominant group. The Capital city of Caucasian Avars is Khunzakh which means “At the Huns” or “The city of Huns”. Their self designation is “Avaral” and “Ma’arulal” (from “mu’rul Avaral”, “Avarian Highlanders”). The Caucasian Avar language is said to show some affinity ancient Mesopotamian agglutinative languages like Hurrian, Sino-Tibetan and also Ket (Yenissei Ostyak) of which there are now less than 500 speakers left in Siberia. It appears from Chinese sources that a Yenisseian group was among the peoples that up the tribal confederation known as the Huns (Xiong-Nu, Hsiung-Nu).

The linguistic data showed that the contacts of Yenisseian languages with Caucasian languages were later than with Basque and Burushaski not to speak about the Indian languages of America. This fact permitted to assume that Indians diverged first from that Union, then the Basques and Burushaski and later on the Caucasian people. Taking into consideration the Indian settlements in America to be 15 thousand years ago, A.Dulson approximately defined the Caucasian-Yenisseian language contact at 6-7 thousand years ago. He devoted his last period of life to Yenisseian languages and their comparison with other language families. Ket having preserved the most ancient structure in the conjugation system gave the key to the explanation of the conjugation system in such languages as Finno-Ugric, Uralo-Altaic, and Indo-European, which was based on pronouns.

In the Caucasian Avar language the word "Avar" is always used any time Avars mention the names of Messengers, Prophets: Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus or Muhammad. For example: Ibrahim-Avarag, Isa-Avarag or Muhammad-Avarag.Thus the word Avarag seems to mean the descendants or followers of the Messenger, Prophet, Messia or Archangel.

One of the prominent figures in Avar history is Sheikh Shamil (1797 – 1871) political and religious leader of the anti-Russian national liberation movement of the Caucasian peoples in 1817 – 1859. He was third imam of Daghestan and Chechnya (1834 – 1859).

http://www.circassiancanada.com/ing/04_daghestan/05_history/da_caucasian_avars.htm

http://www.wikimirror.com/Yeniseian_languages

http://www.hostkingdom.net/caucasus.html#Avaristan

http://www.osi.hu/ipf/fellows/Filtchenko/professor_andrei_petrovitch_duls.htm

--80.237.10.233 19:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Dispute about languages

Autor wrote that language of Avars are "Avar and Russian".This is most strange. Armenians,Aserbaijans,Georgians an others knows Russian Language bat about ther's non wrote there's Languages are "Russian" and other.Autor of "caucasian Avars" is russian nationalist. Russian Language is non-Avarian Language. Author wrote "Imam Shamil" bat non wrote about Shamil. Who was Imam Shamil was unknown. Bad Information about Avars from Wiki. Other Author (user 22 May 2006)wrothe good about Avars. --80.237.10.233 14:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Language of Avars is Avarian Language.Only. language of Russians is Russian language. Only.Language of Armenians, Georgians are Armenian and Georgian languages.

Well, considering the fact that most Avars live in Russia, I would assume that some of them know Russian (at least the ones that live in cities like Makhachkala). —Khoikhoi 01:24, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Answer to HOI. Well, bat the fact that most Avars know Turkish (Qumuq-Turkish and Oghuz Turkish).Avars of Temirkhan-Shura (Buynaksk),Kizilyurt and Khasavyurt know Qumuq Turkish, Avars of Aserbaidjan know Azeri Turkish (Oghuz Turkish), Avars of Turkiye know Turkiye Turkish. AND THIS IS FACT! MOST AVARS KNOW TURKISH! All Armenians of Armenia know Russian, all Georgians know Russian, all Uzbeks, Kazachs, Aserbaidjanians know Russian. Bat who wrote about in Wikipedia? About Makhachkala... Only 23% of people of Makhachkala are Avars."Regions with significant populations Russia (primarily Dagestan". NON-PRIMARILY...BAT THE DAGHESTANIAN REPUBLIC! THE DAGHESTAN IS REPUBLIC. Awarenstuermer--80.237.35.244 09:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Khoikhoi wrote: "The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.” Joseph Stalin. Hello Khoikhoi,Stalin were russian-sovjetian disgusting diktator.Stop with stalinist propaganda from user-Khoikhoi in Wikipedia!--80.237.35.244 09:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear troll, if you had bothered to read the article about Stalin, you would learn that he did not have a drop of Russian blood. He was 100% Georgian, and Georgians and Avars are cousins, right? --Ghirla ^-трёп- 06:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It was a joke, I've now removed it, ok? And why do you think most Avars know Turkish? They're not even a Turkic people! Is Pan-Turkism expanding it's borders? —Khoikhoi 14:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Link about Halil-Beg Mussayassul

http://www.abbeyofreginalaudis.com/sitelive/community/mjerome/mjerome.htm--81.24.84.11 06:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

"Linkspam"

There's no reason to remove the external link. It provides useful information such as a map for the Avars in Dagestan, some information about the people themselves and about their religious believes. Which criterion makes this link "spam"? — N-true 14:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

See WP:EL and WP:SPAM. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Inter-article cleanup desperately needed

The average reader is going to be completely confused between the relationships (if any, and how demonstrated) between the Caucasian Avars and European Avars (a.k.a. Pseudo-Avars a.k.a Eurasian Avars). Both of these articles needs to be very clear on this blindingly obvious question. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:49, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Avars are not speak

Avars are not speak , but the Turko-Mongol children speak. Avars are Aryen-Caucasian. Turks are Mongol people.

Caucasian Avars were "elit Hun" people. huns were Caucasian. But Hunnic slaves were mongoloid.

Um ... WHAT ?!?!?! HammerFilmFan (talk) 19:26, 30 January 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

From Khurasan (Abarshahr) to Agran

Wiki should adhere to sources. In the chronicle of Derbent (Derbend-Name) there is a direct instruction that in the Daghestan area under name Agran (modern Northern territory of Avaristan with name Chir-yurt) the population from Khurasan is moved. And in a vicinity of district Aghran it is a lot of these inhabitants. The old name of Khurasan is Aparshahr/Abarshahr (according to Middle-Persian/Pahlavi later reading should be Awarshahr). Except for that in Avarian language there are words Awarag " the prophet, the Messiah " (< Pahlavi abar "up,on,over; higher,superior", abarag is "superior", Abargar "God, Divinity", abarig "other", abarmanig "noble").In Avaristan is also a river the Avar 'Or (ʕωr). The small river Abhar (according to language of local Turkic people "Avhar") and settlement Abhar is available also in the Iranian province Zenjan. Besides in Iran in olden time in district Shir-Kuh there was a settlement Abar-Kuh (=Abar Mounthain). The mountain Shir-Kuh is probably also is Abar-kuh. According to genetic researches Caucasian Avars are as much as possible close both Iranians, and to Anatolian Turks. The significant part of descendants modern Turk has come on the present grounds from Khurasan (in 19 century so referred to not only northeast land of Persia, but also all Afghanistan. So-called White Huns (the Iranian nomads with Mongolian and probably turkic groups) aspired to seize this territory and there them was much, as well as descendants Parthians.These statements I can support all the concrete facts, sources. As to Turkic language among Avars it really was earlier it is popular. A part of Avars (Azerbaijan, and also inhabitants Buynakskand area Khasav-yurt know Turkic language freely at a level native).

According to Yunusbayev (2006)Caucasian Avars are very close to Anatolian Turks, moreover, at it this same people (absolute identity!). But thus it for some reason has not resulted genetic markers of Iranians. If it them has resulted that a picture would look a little other. The Iranians would send forward Anatolian Turks. Other author Bulayeva (2008) proves, that Avarian women essentially differ on the origin from Avarian men. The Avarian womens are very close to Iranians, and also Slavs, and the most widespread marker among Avarian mens it "F" (61%)but among Avarian women "F" is zero, nothing! In view of a parent and fatherly line an origin the genetic distance looks according to Bulayeva as follows: Georgian (0,02), Iranians (0,03), Kumyk Turks 0,04, Anatolian Turks 0,05, Crimean Tatar 0,06. A part of genetics, investigating inhabitants of Croatia have come to conclusion, that the part of women Avarian qaganate should belong to marker "F". I suggest to avoid mess to write the following: according to chronicles (here to result a source) the part of the population of the Caucasian Failure has been moved from Khurasan (Аbar-shahr) for struggle with Khazars and protection of northern mountain boundaries of sasanian Iran. Thanks for attention. All details later.

Sources,chroniks,books

See: Abbas-Kuli-Aga Bakikhanov. Gulistan-i Iram (Edition, comments, notes and indexes of the academician of the Academy of sciences of Azerbaijan of Z.M.Bunyatov) Publishing house "Elm", Baku 1990. ISBN 5-8066-0236-2).Page 45 Жители окрестностей Аграна были им переселены сюда из Хорасана. Местопребыванием этого эмира также был Агран (Inhabitants of vicinities of Agran have been moved by it here from Khurasan. A residence of this emir also was Agran).On p. 43 A. Bakikhanov informs, that it used the chronicle "Derbend-name".On p. 219 academic -editor of book- A.Buniyatov confirms, that the district Agran corresponds to the Caucasian Avaria: "Агран (Ихран) в Тарих-и Дербенд-наме проходит под названием Аварии" ("Agran (Ikhran)in Derbend-name passes under the name of Avaria "). A.Bakikhanov The author also writes about immigrants (military colonists) from Iran to other Daghestan settlements, but in connection with Khurasan is mentioned only Agran-Avaristan. More shortly, from Khurasan have moved only in Agran. The purpose of resettlement was protection, according to the author leaned the historical chronicle to strengthen defense of Derbend walls. These immigrants were necessary in mountain district that through it there did not pass nomads. Nomads tried to bypass powerful Derbend strengthenings through mountain district. In the same place the author writes, that the Sasanian governor has divided Dagestan into 7 districts and has appointed in Agran the emir. This emir has sat on a gold throne, and the local governor has received from it a silver throne. Author writes that inhabitants of Khurasan have been forwarded in Agran still up to Khosrov Anushirvan by a certain governor by name Isfendiyar. I shall remind, that Sasanian Iran has really spent huge means for construction and protection of Derbend pass. The Sasanides also really pursued a policy of mass resettlements. Besides Sasanian Iran has built on border of Khurasan a powerful wall under the name "The Red snake" or Gorgan Wall. The Arabian medieval geographer and traveller Ibn-Rustah also wrote about the "Master of the Gold Throne" and the "the Earth of the Throne" Ard-as-Sarir", and Supreme the lord of this empire with name Auhar was " qagan of mountains ". If you will type in V.Minorsky's "Sarir" search system easily will find article of V.Minorsky in English. At V.Minorsky you also will find that medieval authors of chronicles write, that in Sarir the throne and treasury Sasanides have been Iranian Bahram Ghur sent. It has ostensibly occured from for invasions of Arabs to Iran. But in any case transfer of a throne and treasury means, as what exactly the Caucasian Avaria and its governors could be considered since then as unique heir-at-laws of empire Sasanides with all consequences following from here. By the way, The Parthian word "aparmand" means "inheritance" and aparmanig "noble".

--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 20:03, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The Sasanian control centre of Daghestan

According to "Gulistan-i Iram" of Abbas-Kuli-Aga-Bakikhanov,p. 44: Город Агран, где Исфандияр воссел на престол, был сделан столицей края (The city of Agran where Isfandiyar has sat on a throne, has been made by capital of edge). Further on p. 44-45 we read: The mouth of the river Terek and copper mine has been given to the local governor silver mine near at Agran. Hot waters on left side of Sulak -river (above Čir-yurt) and now refer to as "Gelbakhs waters".--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 05:33, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

"Agran" and "Abar" according to Iranian Studies

According to D. N. Maсkenzie, A concise Pahlavi Dictionary. Oxford University Press, London, 1971.ISBN 0-19-713559-5: "Abar (Manichean 'br, New Pers. bar: up,on,over; abar amadan rise (sun), abar axistan "rise ap", abar nišastan seat, install; abar ['pl] higher,superior, abarag ['pl] Manichean 'brgsuperior, abaragan(ag)superior, abargar god,divinity, abarig other, abarmand inheritance, privilege, abarmanig noble, abar-menišn prought, haughty, abar-oz stronger, abar-tan arrogant abarwez trumphant, victorious. It not Simply top ground, pay attention, that in sources the throne is constantly mentioned, that clearly specifies the superiority above others. We know also, that the self-name of Parthians was APARNAK and thus they were not mountaineers, and more likely nomads. The Aparnaks have originally seized Parthia-Khurasan and оtherefrom have directed on the West. In the Russian annals " The Story of time years" (Povest' Vremennyh let) about avars-warkhonites of Avarian Qaganate it is written, that " the Obr's (=Avars) were high, great, and haughty Such translation is admissible only if to consider the Iranian and Mongolian languages. The matter is that this word has got and in the Mongolian languages: avarga or abarga great, superior, huge, the champion. Abarga mogoy in Miths of Mongols "Great snake, python, the divinator" As to Turkic languages in one of Turkic languages of such word as avarga, abarga or abarag, awarag is not present.In Turkic languages there is only a Persian loan avare (< abarig "other")" the wanderer, transcender" According to Altiranisches Woerterbuch (Dictionary of Old Iranian languages) of Christian Bartholomae: upara "oben, nach oben; von oben, vom Hochgebirge herkommend(=oestlich). Uparaitat "Superiotaet, Ueberlegenheit". And about word "agran" see by Bartholomae: Aγra- "der erste, oberste, nach Zeit, Rang usw.:2. Anfang, das Oberste, Spitze"; aγrava "vom Obersten, von der Oberseite stammend"Christian (Bartholomae. Altiranisches Woerterbuch, p.49) .

All the resulted dictionaries are accessible on the Internet in a format pdf.--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 07:26, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

G Haplogroup (Y-chromosome) among Cauc.Avars

According to Kazima Bulayeva: "Interestingly, haplogroup G occurs in the Avars (0.06) but not in the other highland groups. Haplogroup G is common in the Southern Caucasus. The mountain groups also have little R1*(xR1a1) (0.06 in Avars, 0.08 in Kubachi)" See: Y chromosomes and mtDNA of Daghestan groups. July 21. 2008. http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-of-daghestan.html Haplogroup G is also common for part of Iranian speaking peoples and probably for Sarmatians--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 10:06, 5 January 2012 (UTC) Step by step The tough job on editing clause has begun. Certainly while I exist roughnesses in the text, footnotes, etc. But набиритесь by patience not everywhere are placed, all will be indispensable. Thanks those, ккто worked on me as I should not begin on an equal place, from zero. I shall try more precisely state a theme, not going into extremes. More that you see now does not belong to my edition. All will be corrected in appropriate way. Step by step--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 13:01, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.163.52.161 (talk) 17:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

File:H Mussayassul Party.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:H Mussayassul Party.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 18:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Stop to irrelevance links in article about Caucasian Avars

Dear user Tigril34! Encyclopaedic clause about the Caucasian Avars cannot begin according to " they were Turks " and in general from a mention about Turks, at all respect for them. You can be have forgotten, what in this world except for Turks still there live also other people? The Article of Caucasian Avars is non article of Kipchaks, Pechenegs and oters. I ask will relieve me in the further from yours editions? Do not involve participants of this clause in unnecessary disputes on unnecessary things. If you really wished something to improve in this clause you, probably, could make it up to me. You of editing destroy clause. Here till now positive was very much and very little. This clause represented a strange Russian salad from senseless and inconsistent messages. Historians should start with sources first of all. In the Byzantian sources it is absolutely precisely told, that in opinion kagan of Goktirks, those avars were Pseudo-avars. That is it did not consider them Avar real. I proceeded also these sources. Besides there are works on genetics. It was written by the international collective. And in searches of traces of Avars in Croatia, they recognized that the European Avars were Mongols. And any word about turkis in this work is not present.There is very much solid an Encyclopedia, under the name " the British encyclopedia "And in it unchecked data are never printed.Here that in it it is written:

AVAR

one of a people of undetermined origin and language, who, playing an important role in eastern Europe (6th–9th century), built an empire in the area between the Adriatic and the Baltic Sea and between the Elbe and Dnieper rivers (6th–8th century). Inhabiting an area in the Caucasus region in 558, they intervened in Germanic tribal wars, allied with the Lombards to overthrow the Gepidae (allies of Byzantium), and between 550 and 575 established themselves in the Hungarian plain between the Danube and Tisza rivers. This area became the centre of their empire, which reached its peak at the end of the 6th century.

Source: "Avar." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica 2007 Ultimate Reference Suite . Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2012.

Resulted by you references to books HAVE no THAT AUTHORITY which is available for the British Encyclopaedia.Still time I repeat, that the page of the Caucasian Avars has no attitude to Turks. All your not clear inserts spoil page. Do not bring henceforth similar amendments. If you accept I can relieve this page of the slightest mention of turkis completely. Never and anywhere you do not prove, that avars were turkis. I do not wish to argue on this theme.As I have understood, you meaningly destroy a page. And I could see in what it has been transformed former editions. It was absolutely pity page and it had a poor maintenance. You possibly hope, that that I shall correct it and when it will get, at last, a tidy kind and the worthy maintenance you enter: " they were turks"? There Is no I with it do not agree. All former editing of page have shown, that it people not the experts limited, not owning were engaged in the information. Everyone who wanted has crippled it as it wished. I have no anything against тюрок, but I do not wish, that the page the Caucasian Avars at once would begin with lines about Turks. And here in general--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 23:11, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

About Turks and not solid sources

Dear user Tigril34,I have cleaned your mention of Turks in the beginning of clause. My source is clear: 1. The Encyclopaedia Britannica: 2. Opinion most of Qagan of Gokturks. And stop!To a theme of Anatolian Turks we still shall return in special section where the materials which are partly throwing light a genetic origin аварцев will be given. Here there Anatolian Turks will be mentioned too which alongside with Iranians in opinion of the some genetiks are very close relatives of the Caucasian Avars. But it is absolutely another question and while to write about it time has not come. You wish only - to receive one well edited clause and then to add there only one - "THEY WERE TURKS!". ;-) Here your purpose. It is More to you it is necessary than nothing. If you wish really something to help, help please! But this comments about Caucasian People, instead of any Turkic Christian peoples. Do not confuse!--Gorgan Aparshahr (talk) 01:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Wrong Avars, Unsourced Connections

Some of the information presented about the (Caucasian) Avars is actually in reference to the Turkic-speaking group also called Avars. Specifically, the quotes from Priscus and Theophylact Simocatta, and the whole first paragraph in general. This seems to be somewhat corrected by a mention of the "Pseudo-Avars," but the meaning of the caveat is hard to discern, even in context, without a prior knowledge of what "pseudo-Avar" refers to. The suggestion of contiguity between the two groups is, as far as its lack of documentation is concerned, unbased. Additionally, available information on Sarir mentions nothing of the Avars that supposedly founded the polity, so much as I can tell.

Additionally, I suggest removing the word "Alorodian" from the article, as this is only a hypothetical, and as of yet unaccepted, language family. 75.80.102.235 (talk) 04:41, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

The Organization

This is a very intriguing nest of information about the Avars. But, it suffers from the problem that often plagues longer WP articles: organization. Three or four different views are presented with no clear distinctions. Each editor is plugging his own view as though it were the proven truth. Well, that is human enough. The main problem I note in the resulting organization is the insufficient distinction between Caucasian Avars and Eurasian Avars. By title, this is the Caucasian. Material on the Eurasian belongs in the Eurasian article. I understand, there are different points of view. Maybe the Avars took their name from the Turkics, maybe from the Iranians. Maybe these Avars settled after a life on the plains. I don't know how you are going to work this out, but each theory needs to be clearly distinguished by sectioning or leading sentences. As it is now I get the idea that the name of the original Avars might appear in ancient Chinese writings. In the very next section they came from the land of the Hurrians. The result is pretty confused. I suggest someone with some knowledge take over the article, and the rest of you leave him alone until he is done. Thanks. Man's worst impediment, of course, is himself.Branigan 11:15, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Moving comment

It is not about Caucasian Avar people, but Eurasian Avars. Bests, Ali-al-Bakuvi (talk) 21:47, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Doh! Thanks. Moving my comment to Talk:Eurasian Avars. Sca (talk) 15:45, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Avars (Caucasus). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071223062713/http://www.eurasianet.org/resource/azerbaijan/hypermail/200103/0062.html to http://www.eurasianet.org/resource/azerbaijan/hypermail/200103/0062.html
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://ii-elm.az/view.php?lang=az&menu=21&id=14
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.dagistan.net/forum/index.php?topic=3913.0
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927005649/http://www.uni-klu.ac.at/eeo/Awarisch.pdf to http://www.uni-klu.ac.at/eeo/Awarisch.pdf
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.jamestown.org/docs/Saidov-14Sep06.pdf,

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:19, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Abdullah Fa'izi ad-Daghestan

Dear IP,

born in Dagestan would mean Avar ethnicity?(KIENGIR (talk) 22:39, 30 March 2020 (UTC))

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Flag of Avars.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:40, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Shamil 1.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:51, 15 May 2022 (UTC)