Talk:Ayurveda

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Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience

The Arbitration Committee has issued several principles which may be helpful to editors of this and other articles when dealing with subjects and categories related to "pseudoscience".

Principles
Four groups

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2016[edit]

59.184.132.78 (talk) 02:35, 7 June 2016 (UTC) ayurveda's where very historical and devosnal riligion

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:33, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
  The question/comment being stated here is, I think, is what I noticed too i.e.: 

"This article is part of a series on Alternative and pseudo-medicine" There are studies supporting alternative and complementary medicine etc. So to say it is pseudo medicine comes off as dismissive or might rub people the wrong way for various reasons. Thus, the idea I believe is to change the title to be more accurate or not rub people the wrong way. I get that it is good to warn people when modern medicine and other things differ or haven't come together yet so they can make the best health decisions.

    Ayurveda as the article translated it means "life-knowledge." Life transcends medicine, and so as the article also stated "Other researchers consider it a protoscience, or trans-science system instead.[13][14]" 

Thus, while I think a person unfamiliar should be cautious and keep in mind some of the ideas in Ayurveda may not have been studied scientifically or might even differ from modern medicine, there can be knowledge gained from learning about it. I don't think medical treatments or ideas from a couple hundred years ago in the west or before bacteria were discovered, even if they didn't work or didn't work well, arent considered pseudo medicine are they? If the history of western medicine is considered they aren't apparently part of the series, so it is more like the history and philosophies of medicine and more. Part of Ayurveda has some philosophy, though India had pioneered things and was the first to do things like certain surgeries etc. So to dismiss Ayurveda as pseudo science might sound like all Indian contributions to medicine are being spoken of though obviously there There are also things in Ayurveda that didn't get researched with modern academic science and medicine yet though it is being found that there are alternative or complementary medicine therapies worth looking into if one so chooses. Even modern western medicine can have drawbacks, side effects, and other such things, so it isn't perfect yet. If only it were so simple as it is in Star Trek where they can just spend a few seconds and a person heals completely. Also, the article notes that Ayurveda is part of series on Hinduism. If it is, one should make sure to keep the article objective and respectful because it can be offensive possibly to some people since religion and philosophy is part of the topic of life knowledge and thus makes sense. Thus you can also see where that can be offensive... to compare a religion to pseudo science is probably offensive. Religions are religion not science though they may overlap too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:583:706:9E70:7D9E:C118:DBD1:7054 (talk) 04:49, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2016[edit]

I am an Ayurvedic Doctor and i want to remove the pseudoscience reference here. It is not correct for ayurveda. Pseudo science means science which mistakenly taken as scientific. Here ayurveda is having scientific principles and anyone who have the doubt can verify the base. This is an era where modern medicine accepting many ayurvedic solutions as correct.

X mark.svg Not done and won't be done - This has been discussed repeatedly and the current wording is the consensus. Please see the archives (1-13) in the top yellow box and the latest discussion in the purple box at the top of this page - please also see the Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience as summarized in the yellow box above the purple one. - Arjayay (talk) 16:46, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


I think this request should be considered because I also think this should be considered. There is a way to be accurate and objective without being offensive and dismissive of research progress. Recent science advances are finding a number of things that are known in Ayurveda are actually being confirmed in modern western science. So how can something that is at least in part being scientifically validated be called a pseudo science? There has to be a better way to acknowledge that in some ways we know more now than we did before and that in some ways we know less than we did before. It is the nature of modern science to test everything etc. So things that were tested before and found to be true may be true. It is just that modern academia is trying to confirm it within the modern paradigm and retrying it or even trying it for the first time.

also "Close to 21% of Ayurveda U.S. and Indian-manufactured patent medicines sold through the Internet were found to contain toxic levels of heavy metals, specifically lead, mercury, and arsenic.[15] The public health implications of such metallic contaminants in India are unknown.[15]" there is something wrong with that I think. Another poster mentioned concerns about this too I believe. Ayurveda is not the worldwide supplement industry! Did you know Consumer Reports did testing and found heavy metals in many popular brands of protein powders?? Check their website. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine-archive/2010/july/food/protein-drinks/whats-in-your-protein-drink/index.htm lead arsenic cadmium mercury. I mention the protein powders because that is supplement industry stuff. Also, protein suppliments are very popular in the USA. They contain heavy metals a ot of them apparently. The supplement industry and its lack of regulation is a different topic than the topic of Ayurveda. There can be subsection where some suppliments had impurities in them if there was heavy metal when there wasn't supposed to be, or there can be discussion of the topic of intentionally using heavy metal as part of some ayurvedic treatments, however these are two different topics. Ayurveda is a body of knowledge not a bottle of nutritional suppliments and the subsequent industry that is being bought and sold.


Letting people know that some traditional medicine therapies and perhaps systems should be looked upon with more of a historical or philosophical lens than a medical one is useful, however some of these ancient treatments are actually still good. Just because something gets involved with nutritional suppliments doesn't mean that it isn't legit. Vitamin D is available over the counter as a nutritional supplement but it is also available by prescription. Vitamin D is also available for free by getting some sun on your skin. three ways to look at it for example. perhaps the traditional ways might not emphasize ingestion and might suggest getting sun daily for a period of time but that works.

I don't have time to goive more concise and such talk but hope this helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikipediaisgreat (talkcontribs) 06:17, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Should Ayurvedic medicine or rasa shastra be described as a public health hazard?[edit]

I recently started a thread (above) titled "Public health implications of toxins unknown?" The purpose of that thread was to discuss my proposal to remove one sentence from the article: "The public health implications of metals in rasa shastra in India is unknown.[15]" I felt that such a broad statement could not be supported by a primary source, as per WP:MEDRS. The thread turned into a discussion about the harmful effects, as if the sentence I wanted to remove needed to be replaced with a more forceful statement about harmful effects.

Since others here seem determined to include a broad statement about harmful effects, I thought that should be a separate proposal in its own thread. Personally I don't think such a broad statement can be supported by the kind of sources that would be acceptable. In the 1950s, organizations like the FDA or the AMA might have made such statements, but as I pointed out above, public health agencies nowadays tend to shy away from broad condemnations of traditional medicine. Instead, they focus on a harm-reduction model. As a result, even though I personally think that rasa shastra is "scary-dangerous", I think including such a broad statement would not be within the scope of what an encyclopedia is supposed to be, as it does not reflect the position of the kind of sources we should be citing. Zyxwv99 (talk) 14:14, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

We should say the heavy metals and other toxic ingredients of ayurvedic remedies pose a risk to people taking them, using the good Ernst sources discussed in the section above. Alexbrn (talk) 14:17, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Is it only the rasa shastra remedies, or other Ayurvedic medicines as well? Zyxwv99 (talk) 18:39, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Is this a continuation of the conversation above or something totally separate? Just making I understand what we're talking about before responding. PermStrump(talk) 19:25, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Please provide a page number for saying "The heavy metals and other toxic ingredients of ayurvedic remedies pose a risk to people taking them". I have a copy of the Ernst 2002 review (PMID 11936709). QuackGuru (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
The last 2 paragraphs of the conclusion (page 895):

It is thus important that doctors are aware of the risks associated with HMPs [4] and include questions about HMP use during the routine taking of a patient’s history [29]. This obviously goes far beyond the possibility of heavy metal contamination, also covering areas like herbal toxicity and herb–drug interactions [29, 30].

In conclusion, some traditional Indian HMPs have been shown to contain dangerously large amounts of heavy metals (particularly lead) resulting in serious intoxication. This knowledge should encourage us to investigate this issue further and, if necessary, find means of minimising the risk of heavy metal poisoning through HMPs in the future.
PermStrump(talk) 06:08, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Ignore my first (struck out) comment. I missed the top of the OP somehow. Re: The original question, these review articles—Kosalec (2009) and Parasuraman (2014)—are clear that high levels of heavy metals and the related health risks are a pervasive problem across Ayurvedic products due to contamination from where they're grown and/or manufactured, not just rasa shastra, where the metals are intentionally added. WHO has made clear statements on the topic as well: "According to the principles of Ayurvedic medicine, heavy metals may be used because of their reputed therapeutic properties. However, improper manufacturing processes may result in dangerously high levels of heavy metals remaining in the final product. Heavy metals pose a particular health risk because they may accumulate in vital organs..." I haven't seen any reliable sources that attribute this problem exclusively to rasa shastra, so no, I don't think it would be at all appropriate to make that claim in the article. And considering the review articles explicitly address the importance of educating the public about the potential risks, it makes sense for us to clearly articulate them in this article. PermStrump(talk) 06:57, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The article on Traditional Chinese medicine#Safety has a substantial subsection entitled "Safety". That seems like a good word, since the FDA uses the phrase "safe and effective when used as directed" to describe approved drugs. Ideally this article should have an entire section on Safety. Here, safety information is buried in a sub-subsection "Use of toxic metals" under subheading "Research" in section "Classification and efficacy." Having an entire section would obviate the need for broad, sweeping statements, since we could say more precisely what the problems are. Zyxwv99 (talk) 18:28, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm open to the idea if there were a draft version that other editors could contribute to before it went live. PermStrump(talk) 20:37, 26 July 2016 (UTC)


I didn't read all of the discussion above, but the title of this section says it all. I think a good metaphor, case, or example is chemotherapy. Chemotherapy drugs are powerful drugs and can have some very serious side effects. However, I don't think the medical system goes around calling it poison or a health hazard; they just say it has side effects etc.. Though obviously people shouldnt take chemotherapy drugs if they dont need them. Also those drugs are obviously regulated prescription etc stuff.

I hope the chemo drugs can and do help at least many of those if that need them. The side effects are dangerous and people don't just take stuff for no reason, healthy people don't take the drugs not just because it would be not allowed since it is regulated by prescription etc but also because a healthy person to take chemo drugs would be bad for them.

I don't know the science on things like heavy metals etc but maybe they have a down side like some other prescription medications though I dont know the science on them though I suppose it is at least possible that they can be they can help some people more than they hurt those people possibly, or maybe not I don't know, but we can use common sense here and along those lines of course people shouldn't take them if they don't need them.

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2016[edit]


Although laboratory experiments suggest it is possible that some substances in Ayurveda might be developed into effective treatments, there is no evidence that any are effective as currently proffered.[11] Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific.[12]

I would suggest removing these lines as the sources provided do not state the same at all. Moreover, many of Ayurveda's have been scientifically tested in laboratories and have helped pharmaceuticals develop new drugs based on such studies.Ayurveda also gives one of the first detailed descriptions of surgery in the world, and this can be verified by referring books such as the Susruta Samhita Ramgopalc24 (talk) 17:20, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

The sources seem fine for the content.
Note for medical claims such as what you are arguing, WP:MEDRS sources are required.
I don't understand what descriptions of early surgery has to do with any of it. --Ronz (talk) 18:33, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Not done: as the cited reliable sources back up the existing text, whereas you have not cited any reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 20:57, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2016[edit]

heavy metal content is high in ayurvedic medicines because some medicinal plants used in it(eg. Bacopa moneri) have the capability of absorbing heavy metals from soil ayurveda though it its principle is outdated is a very effective branch of medicine because of countless trial and error experiments carried out over generations Tompyro (talk) 15:27, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 15:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)