Talk:Ba gua

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This page doesn't work with UTF-8. All the characters appear as a questionmark (Like '?').

Shouldn't this page use Unicode, so we can properly display English, Chinese & Korean characters? Gigglesworth 20:13, 23 September 2005 (UTC) Gigglesworth 20:12, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Autodidaktor - looks ok to me. How about now? October 30 2006 03:38 UTC

Guys the trigram symbols in the table don't match the glyph.[edit]

Otherwise good page --

--Xgenei 03:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

"Bagua - Animated" and "Bagua - Full Diagram"[edit]

In the "External Links" section, these two 'links' were included initially as simple html addresses. I went ahead and replaced them with shorter versions; doing so makes the two look nicer, I believe. Personally, though, I believe the two should be moved to the "See Also" section seeing as the two links are still links within Wikipedia (albeit the .ru version). But that's just me...Ultatri 05:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge with Bagua Map[edit]

I can't see any reason why this shouldn't be done. The feng shui thing is just one of many applications for the concept, and doesn't really seem to be a rich enough vein of material to merit its own article. --grant 22:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I've merged Bagua Map into this article. Also, I moved this section to the bottom of the talk page so that it doesn't look confusing. Thaurisil 10:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Incomplete Treatment[edit]

I noticed that while the majority of Baguas match the ordering shown in this article, I have seen some that do not. I wondered about the difference, but I didn't think much of it until I stumbled across the answer in the Wilhelm/Baynes translation of the I Ching. In the Shuo Kua (the eighth "Wing" of the I Ching), it explains how the *original*--i.e. created prior to or early on in the Zhou dynasty--configuration of the trigrams was as follows, starting from the top (which is south, btw; the article doesn't specifically mention this aspect of the Bagua) and moving clockwise: Qian, Xun, Kan, Gen, Kun, Zhen, Li, Dui. According to the Shuo Kua, this arrangement is called the "Sequence of Earlier Heaven" or "Primal Arrangement". It then gives the arrangement shown in the article (Li, Kun, Dui, Qian, Kan, Gen, Zhen, Xun), which they term the "Sequence of Later Heaven" or "Inner-World Arrangement". They attribute this latter ordering to King Wen.

The significances and differences between these two orderings is something I am still wrapping my head around (I have only recently became intrigued by Taoism), but from what I've gathered so far the "Primal Arrangement" is based on complementary opposites placed on opposite sides (Fire/Water, Earth/Heaven, Thunder/Wind, Mountain/Lake) whereas the "Inner-World Arrangement" is arranged to better mimic the progression of natural phenomena throughout the year. Seems reasonably simple, but there are three catches:

1. Since the position of the seasons remain the same, each season is represented by different trigrams--for example, in "Primal Arrangement" Summer is Qian but in "Inner-World Arrangement" it is Li.

2. Since the position of the cardinal directions remains the same (i.e. south is still at the top), each direction is represented by a different trigram.

3. Despite these differences (or because of them?), the two orderings are supposed to coexist--Baynes' exact words are "It is noted that the trigram Li occupies the place in the south that in the Primal Arrangement is held by the trigram Qian, the Creative. Li consists essentially of the top and bottom lines of Qian, which have taken to themselves the middle line of Kun. To understand fully, one must always visualize the Inner-World Arrangement as transparent, with the Primal Arrangement shining through it. Thus when we come to the trigram Li, we come at the same time upon the ruler Qian, who governs with his face turned to the south."

Suffice it to say that I do not "understand fully". It sounds like it's describing a series of alterations you can perform on the Primal Arrangement in order to produce the Inner-World Arrangement and/or it's explaining how any two of the overlapping trigrams coexist...

Despite this ignorance on my part, the Wilhelm/Baynes I Ching translation is nigh-legendary in its accuracy and I have found several examples of Baguas (mostly pendants) that use the "Primal Arrangement." I've therefore concluded that it's significant enough to merit immediate inclusion in the article. Since I cannot (yet) explain the interplay between the two diagrams, I'll tag the article as needing attention from an expert. I'm also going to stress that south is at the top of the bagua--the article doesn't contradict this (for example, it says that Li represents south and Li is indeed at the top of the bagua in the illustrations) and change the caption on the first picture to reflect that it is an "Inner-World Arrangement." (EDIT: I just now noticed that the caption on the second picture does indeed identify it as the "Later Heaven" King Wen order. It also seems that there were originally pictures showing the Primal Arrangement order, but were removed due to potential copyright issues. Even if we can't find a picture, though, we do need to address the differences in the article itself.)

Note on romanization: The Wilhem/Baynes I Ching uses Wade-Giles. To avoid confusion, I have substituted the appropriate pinyin terms, except for the term "Shuo Kua", for which I could find no readily available pinyin transliteration. --Lode Runner 02:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, changes made. I also took the liberty of adding a "season" column, since it (along with cardinal direction) is a very important difference between the two orderings. If and when I figure out how the two arrangements work together, I'll add some commentary; in the meantime, perhaps someone else can explain what I cannot. --Lode Runner 03:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

For your information, there are many differing trigram arrangements other than the two trigram sequences known as the Earlier Heaven and the Later Heaven arrangements. In fact, there could be 40320 (factorial 8!). The most authoritative author on this subject is Richard Wilhelm. In his book of changes, he describes the context and meaning of the two trigram sequences mention above. His book also includes a matrix grid used for identifying the two trigram components which form each hexagram. The trigram sequence employed is the KEY CODE sequence which is directly and mathematically linked to the ORDER OF COMPLETION sequence mentioned in the Great Commentary. (Book II, chapter IX). I have added some additional information to the BA-GUA section which you may be of interest to you. -- ichingmaster 13:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)

A lot of feng shui-specific information has appeared in the main section of the article. Please keep this information in the "Bagua map" section. The bagua is a central Taoist image (second in importance only to the Taijitu), and feng shui is but one taoist-derived discipline out of a great multitude. I just copied and pasted the errant information--the bagua map section could use a rewrite by someone who is knowledgeable about feng shui.--Lode Runner 00:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the tables be written so that the information that doesn't change (season/direction) are the leftmost columns, and the others to the right of them? It would make comparison easier. -- TimNelson 09:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

triplet of what? and why?[edit]

what i understand is that if you got 2 possible values you are doing binary. what i do not understand is why it is 3 bits. and does each bit have a meaning (or maybe flipping has ?) ? (talk) 07:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC) add: maybe they have been foretelling by throwing "dices". where each dice had 2 sides. but then again each die must have some meaning - to identify position. so why they wouldn't use two 4-side dice instead and kept 2-sided? (talk) 07:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Short answers: they throw coins, not dice. I think 2^3=8 was just a convenient number--octogons are a lot easier to draw and use than 16-gons. Yes, specific bits have meaning, although it depends on your interpretation. Foretelling is usually done with a hexagram, the pairing of two trigrams. See I Ching divination for details. - (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC).

Digits for zero and unity are binary but an alphabet with 2 letters wouldn't be binary per se. For lack of arithmetic, even Shao Yong's binary order might be understood as lexical.
3 bits can store an unsigned binary integer in the range 0 to 7. If the least significant bit is on the right, then the first bit is (0 or 1) × 22, the middle bit is (0 or 1) × 21 and the final bit on the right is (0 or 1) × 20. For example, binary 1112 = (1 × 4) + (1 × 2) + (1 × 1) = decimal 710.
Why? In consideration of yin/yang philosophy, 3 being half of 6, 8 being √64 etc. Contrary to legend, many Yi scholars now believe the use of hexagrams predated the use of compound trigrams (and the ba gua images).
Gua are traditionally read from the bottom up (with the least significant bit at the top as per Shao Yong's diagrams). For trigrams, the relative proportion of firm and yielding lines (yin and yang lines) determine familial categories: parent/child and gender. The eldest children have a single, gender-matching, yin or yang at the bottom, the youngest have one at the top and the middle children have it in the middle. Hexagrams have commentary, general meanings and specific interpretations for every line in each hexagram.
Long answer: Traditionally, 3 coins are thrown 6 times, counting tails × 3 and heads × 2 each throw. 6 is old yin, 7 is young yang, 8 is young yin and 9 is old yang. (Also written as "—×—", "–—–", "— —" and "—θ—"). For each position, special commentary is provided for sixes and nines, (old yin/yang lines), also known as changing lines or moving lines. A second hexagram will be formed by switching the yin/yang polarity of changing lines, (if any). Technically, this requires six base-4 numbers or 12 bits of binary (3333334= 77778= 409510= FFF16).
Tai Xuan Jing uses base-3 and Ifa uses base-4.
The original stick method was lost in antiquity, so the coin method is the oldest documented procedure. As reinvented, the stick method features asymmetric probabilities: ℙ(6)=116, ℙ(7)=516, ℙ(8)=716, ℙ(9)=316. This differs from the coin method's balanced yin/yang probabilities: ℙ(6)=216, ℙ(7)=616, ℙ(8)=616, ℙ(9)=216. Various procedures using polyhedral dice, standard dice, lots and playing cards are easily found online. Non-randomized selection procedures and non-bibliomantic interpretations also exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Machine Elf 1735 (talkcontribs) 23:09, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Broken links[edit]

The following links are broken, so I removed them from the article. I include them for future reference if they become available again (not likely).

Ba gua (bakkwa, rougan)[edit]

I added the dried meat product "Ba gua" to the disambiguation page.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 17:58, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Where is the jerky ever called "Ba gua"? --JWB (talk) 18:11, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Someone mentioned it in the wrong place yesterday. [1] It's also in second paragraph of the "Ba gua" (bakkwa) article.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 21:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

scheme based on Sun Lutang's book[edit]

why the scheme is deleted? Sun Lutang in his book shows the roots of bagua - how they made! so th scheme should not be deleted (Idot (talk) 00:53, 1 July 2010 (UTC))

Sun Lutang scheme
non–animated version
Hi Idot, you're referring to the animated gif and the external link. The animation is distracting and it's not exactly encyclopedic because it has no captions and cycles very quickly. Regarding the external link to an earlier version of the animation at commons, that isn't normally done.
I made a non–animated version (50% thumbnail→) and considered using it, but without labels I'm concerned it might be confusing for some readers. I've included a linear derivation instead; which isn't the same, I understand... I'll keep an eye out for his book on Google Book and such.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 07:03, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
animation here is crucial! 'coz he starts drawing scheme from round cicrle - which is wuji, then ads a curved line and calls it taiji (not steriotypical, but..), then colors it and call it liuan-yi, then converts it to yin-yang and adds four digramms - which are five elements together with central yin-yang, and so on... (Idot (talk) 02:16, 3 July 2010 (UTC))
It would be more encyclopedic if you could transcribe the text description of it from his book and send it to me (with citation details)? Then I could paraphrase it... Special:EmailUser/Machine Elf 1735Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 03:33, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
transformations are following:

wu-ji - unlimited - round circle
=> tai-ji - great limit - round circle with curved line (not steriotypical yin-yang)
=> liang-yi - two meaninngs - two black and white commas without dots
=> wu-xing - five elments - presneted as yin-yang (soil) + si-xian (shown as four digramms)
=> ba gua

transformations are dynamic (Idot (talk) 06:30, 6 July 2010 (UTC))
WP:FIVE—try baguazhang. K,thxMachine Elf 1735 (talk) 06:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)