Talk:Balady citron

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Second name[edit]

Can someone provide a source stating whether this citron is also known as a Palestinian or an Israeli citron. Sepsis II (talk) 00:21, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: Can I see your source for "Israeli citron", thanks. Sepsis II (talk) 20:26, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Here is one: "Rise of the Palestinian Citron".[1] .../ Chesdovi (talk) 20:52, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Isaac, Erich (1958). "Rise of the Palestinian Citron". The Citron in the Mediterranean: A Study in Religious Influences. Economic geography. University of California. p. 76. Morocco, Tunisia, Corsica, and Calabria continued to be sources for etrogim and have remained so until the present day. There has been one major addition — Palestine, now Israel, which has become the most important single producer in the Mediterranean.. The rise of the Palestine etrog coincided with the decline of that of Corfu. Etrogim were, of course grown from ancient times in Palestine and individual citron reached European Jewish dignitaries, but there was no significant trade until the latter part of the nineteenth century. The chief impediment to widespread acceptance of the Palestinian etrog in Europe was the prevalence of grafting there as in Europe. 
Alright, I've seen a few weak sources using the term Palestinian citron, and none using the term Israeli citron, but I must be missing some sources as there are a couple editors who must know the real name is not Palestinian citron but Israeli citron. Sepsis II (talk) 21:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
See the comment Shoteh left here: [1]. Chesdovi (talk) 22:11, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
This looks like a good source in general that might help here and in other articles The Search for the Authentic Citron (Citrus medica L.): Historic and Genetic Analysis, HortScience December 2005 40:1963-1968]. Plus this one. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:54, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Either remove the name completely, or leave it as it is. Do not change Palestinian to 'Israeli' unless you are *also* changing the Hebrew translation. Otherwise its saying Israeli Citron in English but effectively 'Palestinian Citron' in Hebrew. Which is ridiculous. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:37, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Maybe after 1948, it's known by both names? Btw, the article has had the name "Palestinian" in Hebrew since 2008: [2]. Chesdovi (talk) 16:50, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I removed the name completely. Neither the Hebrew or English for "Palestinian citron" seems to be commonly used (the Hebrew got exactly 5 hits on google). Also this article is lacking in sources in general. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:31, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Does "Balady Citron" return any results? Try Baledi/Beledi. The term Balady was/is also used in reference to the local Orange variety. And presumably it is used in any Arab speaking country to define the native variety of any given fruit. That's why the article first stated: "The Balady of Palestine (my emphasis) was the Pitamless Israeli Citron which was native to Palestine." Now it misleadingly reads as if "Balady" is the name of the variety itself: "Balady citron is a variety of citron, or etrog, grown in Palestine and Israel". I feel naming this page "Balady citron" which translates as "Local citron" is too much of a generalisation. It should be more specific to the region where it was grown and I suggest renaming the page "Palestinian citron". Sources I have found are listed below:

[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23]

References

  1. ^ Supreme Court Apellate Division First Department. 1917. p. 341. Comparing the quality, the Palestine esrogim were much more." and "the difference between a Triest citron and a Palestine citron?" and "the same quality of citron between a Palestine citron and a Greek citron? 
  2. ^ Gaster, Theodor H. (1952). "What the Feast of Booths Celebrates. The Meaning of Succoth for Moderns". Commentary. American Jewish Committee. p. 311. So, too, is the identification of the fruit with the Palestinian citron (ethrog) 
  3. ^ Raphael H. Levine (1953). Holy Mountain: Two Paths to One God. Binfords & Mort. p. 71. Symbols of the Feast of Tabernacles include the Lulav (palm leaves bound together), the Esrog (Palestinian citron), Myrtle and Willow of the Brook. 
  4. ^ Henry Charles Lennox Anderson; W. H. Clarke; F. G. Chomley; Percy Hunter; J. E. O'Grady (1953). The Agricultural Gazette of New South Wales. C. Potter, Government Printer. p. 129. Palestine citron. 
  5. ^ Isaac, Eric; Isaac, Rael (October 1958). "A Goodly Tree: Sacred and Profane History". Commentary. American Jewish Committee. p. 305. While the Palestinian etrog steadily climbed in popularity, the Corfu etrog still did not lack persistent champions. 
  6. ^ Isaac, Erich (1958). "Rise of the Palestinian Citron". The Citron in the Mediterranean: A Study in Religious Influences. Economic geography. University of California. p. 76. Morocco, Tunisia, Corsica, and Calabria continued to be sources for etrogim and have remained so until the present day. There has been one major addition — Palestine, now Israel, which has become the most important single producer in the Mediterranean.. The rise of the Palestine etrog coincided with the decline of that of Corfu. Etrogim were, of course grown from ancient times in Palestine and individual citron reached European Jewish dignitaries, but there was no significant trade until the latter part of the nineteenth century. The chief impediment to widespread acceptance of the Palestinian etrog in Europe was the prevalence of grafting there as in Europe. 
  7. ^ Raphael Patai (1958). Herzl Year Book. Herzl Press. p. 252. The opponents attacked the Shavei Zion leaders even for promoting the sale of Palestinian ethrogim. 
  8. ^ Solomon Bennett Freehof (1959). The Responsa Literature. Jewish Publication Society of America. p. 174. Nevertheless, even with regard to the Palestinian etrogim, a question was asked of Eliezar David Greenwald. This question could not have been asked except about Palestinian etrogim; it could have no bearing on any others. 
  9. ^ Tzvi Rabinowicz (1961). A Guide to Hassidism. T. Yoseloff. p. 132. Among the many rabbis who wholeheartedly supported the use of Palestinian etrogim was Rabbi Abraham Bornstein (1839-1910) of Sochaczew. "It is forbidden to use etrogim from Corfu when Palestinian etrogim are available," he ruled, in 1898. 
  10. ^ Marnin Feinstein (1965). "Hoveve Zion: 1884-1895". American Zionism, 1884-1904. Herzl Press. p. 44. These officers agreed not only to boycott Corfu ethrogim but to purchase Palestinian ethrogim. 
  11. ^ Isser Frenkel (1967). Men of distinction: biographies of great rabbis. Sinai. pp. 45–6. The Palestinian ethrog was in its infancy, and only just beginning to penetrate world markets." and "Eretz Yisroel was the apogee of all that Rabbi Kook wished for. He fought with might and main on behalf of the Palestine etrog, and even went so far as to forbid the saying of the benediction on the better quality fruit imported from the Isle of Corfu in Greece. 
  12. ^ Tradition: A Journal of Orthodox Jewish Thought. Human Sciences Press. 1979. p. 86. Problems also arose in theoretical matters, such as the use of Palestinian Etrogim and the most difficult of them all, the observance of the Sabbatical year 
  13. ^ Sykes, S. R. "A glasshouse screening procedure for identifying citrus hybrids which restrict chloride accumulation in shoot tissues." Crop and Pasture Science 36.6 (1985): 779-789. "Palestine citron."
  14. ^ Philip Goodman; Simon Rawidowicz (1974). Studies in Jewish thought. Jewish Publication Society of America. p. 4. ISBN 978-0-8276-0057-7. He also promoted the sale of Palestinian etrogim (citrons), despite the criticisms of the extremely Orthodox members of the community who claimed that they were unfit for ritual purposes 
  15. ^ AM Snowball, AM Zeman, YT Tchan, MG Mullins and PB Goodwin. (1991) "Phase Change in Citrus: Immunologically Detectable Differences Between Juvenile and Mature Plants". Australian Journal of Plant Physiology 18(4). pp. 385-96: "Species which contained more specific antigen than Marsh grapefruit were Citrus medica L. (Palestine citron)"
  16. ^ The Orchardist of New Zealand: Official Organ of the New Zealand Fruitgrowers' Federation and the New Zeland Apple and Pear Marketing Board. The Federation. 1991. p. 47. Palestine citron. 
  17. ^ Murray Friedman (1993). When Philadelphia was the capital of Jewish America. Balch Institute Press. p. 136. In Philadelphia, Levinthal sought to support the Yishuv (term used for Jewish settlement in Palestine) by advertising Palestinian etrogim and lulavim 
  18. ^ AM Snowball, Elizabeth A. Halliganb, I. J. Warringtonb & M. G. Mullinsa. (1994) "Phase change in citrus: Growth and flowering of citrus seedlings from thirteen genetically diverse seedling families". Journal of Horticultural Science. Volume 69, Issue 1. pp. 141-8: "Within 30 months of germination some seedlings of some families formed flowers (e.g. ‘West Indian’ lime, ‘Eureka’ lemon, ‘Rangpur lime’, ‘Palestine’ citron and ‘Cleopatra’ mandarin)."
  19. ^ Ana María Quiñones Costa (1 January 1995). Symboles végétaux: la flore sculptée dans l'art médiéval. Desclée de Brouwer. p. 138. ISBN 978-2-220-03704-2. le citron de Palestine (ethrog) 
  20. ^ Michel H. Porcher. Sorting Citrus names, (1997). MULTILINGUAL MULTISCRIPT PLANT NAME DATABASE. University of Melbourne. "Citrus medica L. cv. ' Palestine' ENGLISH : Palestine citron."
  21. ^ Jeffrey Gurock (4 February 2014). "Memoirs and Scrapbooks of Dr. Bluestone-Grinstein". American Zionism: Missions and Politics: American Jewish History. Routledge. p. 56. ISBN 978-1-136-67549-2. This, repeated a numher of times, spread the rumor about town that the Jews were demanding Palestinian ethrogim. 
  22. ^ Yehudah Mirsky (11 February 2014). Rav Kook: Mystic in a Time of Revolution. Yale University Press. p. 70. ISBN 978-0-300-16555-5. he published Etz Hadar (A Stately Tree), a treatise on the desirability of Palestinian etrogim, the citrons taken up in the prayers of the sukkot harvest festival 
  23. ^ Robert Nemes; Daniel Unowsky (29 July 2014). Sites of European Antisemitism in the Age of Mass Politics, 1880-1918. Brandeis University Press. p. 188. ISBN 978-1-61168-583-1. The boycott, combined with the increased production and successful promotion of the Palestinian etrog, spelled the end of the etrog on Corfu—and with it,the end of an important point of contact between Christians and Jews. 

// Chesdovi (talk) 00:05, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

As always, some of your sources don't refer to the Balady citron, but when they say Palestinan Citron, they refer to any citrons grown. Specifically, read the Rav Kook reference you provided. He wrote that as an economic preference, he did not want to import citrons when local ones are available. That's like saying you want Red Delicious apples renamed to NY apples because people in NY prefer NY apples over imported apples. In addition, the common name of the citron is Balady citron and that is why it should not be renamed. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:41, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Sir Joseph, your "as always" strikes me as a personal attack, and an untrue one at that.
Either way, Chesdovi provided 23 sources, and you have provided none. Since you state a view re the common name, please show us what you base that conclusion on.
Oncenawhile (talk) 14:47, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
To be clear, in the mid-1800s there was one variety which was known as "native" to Palestine, which according to the article was called "Baledi" after other varieties were introduced from elsewhere. But for the rest of the world, it was know after the place from where it originated, similar to Corsican citron, Diamante citron, Greek citron, Moroccan citron, Yemenite citron. Palestine/Palestinian citron also seems to be the scientific name. "Balady" is indeed a variety, and it should be unambiguously termed as the one "native" to Palestine. Chesdovi (talk) 15:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC) (edit conflict}
The article says "Balady citron is native to Israel and Palestine." That is how it should be. Renaming to Palestinian Citron is just not good and a POV edit. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Not at all, he cherry picks sources and takes out of context. Here are some sources that call it a Balady Citron. [1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

[8][9][10][11] Sir Joseph (talk) 15:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ The Heart of the Four Species. (2012), Emunah of America. "Part of the slack was picked up by Israeli etrogim. The etrog variety common to Israel is the Balady (Arabic meaning “native”), a name engendered in the mid-nineteenth century to distinguish it from the Greek varieties that had recently been planted in the Holy Land. Balady, also known as Jericho etrog, is extremely similar to the Greek etrog, but generally less attractive and more irregular."
  2. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etrog (This cannot be used as a source per policy) Chesdovi
  3. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_citron (This cannot be used as a source per policy) Chesdovi
  4. ^ Down on America’s next big etrog farm JTA: "And, of course, because Jews cannot agree on which etrog variety is optimal, Bycer has planted an array of specimens: Moroccan etrog, which has an hourglass-like strip around the middle; Chazon Ish or Balady etrogs, which are covered in bumps and are very popular; Yanover or Diamente etrogs, which are greener and smoother; and Yemenite etrogs, which are significantly larger than average."
  5. ^ Live and Feel: "While in modern Hebrew Etrog is the name used for any variety of citron, its English usage applies to those species and specimens used as one of the four varieties traditionally used as Etrog. These are are the Diamante Citron from Italy, the Greek Citron, the Balady Citron from Israel, the Moroccan or Yemenite Citrons"
  6. ^ A REVIEW ON CITRON-PHARMACOGNOSY, PHYTOCHEMISTRY AND MEDICINAL USES, By Meena A K*, Kandale Ajit, Rao M M, Panda P., Reddy Govind (This cannot be used as a source per policy) Chesdovi
  7. ^ King Pawn, By Raj Nellooli: "He had even managed to get a few tress of Balady citron when he had visited Palestine"
  8. ^ e-Study Guide for: Cultural Anthropology by Serena Nanda, ISBN
  9. ^ Pilgrimage to Jerusalem and the Holy Land, 1187–1291, By Professor Denys Pringle: "A variety of citron, known as the balady citron"
  10. ^ Encyclopedia of Jewish Food, By Gil Marks; "Consequently, many growers began grafting Greek branches onto Israeli Balady citron rootstock.."
  11. ^ Palestine, By Sarah Irving, Bradt Travel Guides, 1 Mar 2012 - Travel: ""It is one of the areas in Palestine where baladi citron, a strange, bumpy type of lemon used specificlly for Jewish rituals, is grown. The name 'baladi', which associates it with the land, differentiates it from the smooth 'Greek' lemons grown on the coast"


To be clear: I do not of course deny that "Balady citron" is used as a common name. The reason I feel the page should be moved is because each variety is "Balady" to wherever it is grown. The page name should be more specific to the geographical location where this citron grows.

I'm a tad suspicious about some of the above sources citing "Balady". I had earlier seen Irving (#11), but dispensed with it since, as a travel guide, it is not a good RS, although it does show usage as common name. References #2 & #3 are sourced to Wikipedia which obviously cannot be used as RS here. #6 is also sourced to Wikipedia's article on Citron. I am not at all sure about #8 as it seems a very bizarre source which I cannot fully access. #7 is not RS, but a novel, which again shows name usage. #5 "Live and Feel" health product website has no details of authorship. The sources which may bear some weight as RS are the JTA article (#3), #9, #10. Not sure what to make of #1 which claims it is also called "Jericho etrog" which I cannot find sourced anywhere else. (#9 features as a footnote, so really need to see to what it refers) Chesdovi (talk) 16:16, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Except that is not how it is referred to when people say Balady Citron or Balady Esrog. And travel guides and other items are indeed useful since they show common usage of the term. You should also not be striking out my comments, you should deal with your comments and refs. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:25, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

It seems #9 relates to a pilgrim account referring to "Adam's apple" which Pringle (as opposed to Tolkowsky) suggests is the "Balady citron." It should be noted however that Pringle possibly used "Balady" since the context of the text was unambiguously related to Palestine. Chesdovi (talk) 16:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

It should also be noted that a good chunk of your sources refer to the geography not the name when they say Palestine Citron. Similar to how the scientific name of apples in NY is not NY Apples. But someone saying "buy Palestinian Citrons" just means he wants you to buy those citrons to support the local economy, and this is more of you taking references out of context. Your ref 1 is exactly the same thing. With regards to the WP articles: This is not used for RS purposes but what an article title should be called and as such we should be using what is used in common day and Wikipedia is a valid source for that.Sir Joseph (talk) 16:56, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
No. As Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, including those who have absolutely no idea what they're talk about, it can not be used as a source for anything. -- -- -- 20:34, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I cannot see "Balady" used on Hebrew Wiki. I suggest adding to this page that in Hebrew, the Palestine citron is called אתרוג ארץ ישראל for which I have found sources. It also seems that Israel's Ministry Of Agriculture And Rural Development (pp. 40-1) neither use the term "Balady", opting to refer to it simply as "Citrus medica L," though they do list "Palestine sweet lime". Chesdovi (talk) 17:26, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

  • As an outsider to the discussion here, I can only say that the article needs a major rewrite. It's full of unencyclopedic language. It tells the reader very little about the plant or the fruit. The appropriate sources to decide what a cultivated fruit should be called are horticultural and botanical, not religious. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:16, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose Chesdovi engages in cherrypicking and POV pushing. He does not hesitate to bring support form sources that upon closer analysis do not use the word Palestinian in the same sense as he implies. Debresser (talk) 19:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
    • "POV pushing"? Enough! Please elaborate on "Palestinian in the same sense as he implies". 19:26, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
      • For example, your source 1,10 and 11. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:28, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
Don't tell me "enough"! You are POV pushing, and I have the right and the obligation to warn against it.
In most of the sources the word "Palestinian" is used not as part of the name, but as an indication of geographical origin. Precisely the same as "Palestinian wine", which is just "wine from the territory that is called Palestine", but is not a proper name. Note, that Sir Joseph also told you this above. Debresser (talk) 21:55, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
True, "Palestinian" it is used in the geographical sense, but wherever in the Arab world citrons are grown, they are called Balady! We could not have Israeli citron for a single variety as there are a dozen sub-varieties to which people refer, eg. a Chazon Ish, Braverman, etc. It would have to be called Israeli citrons (plural). To distinguish this sole Balady variety from others around the world, I am suggesting adding the region to its name, just as do a number of scientific papers which call this citron "Palestine citron." Chesdovi (talk) 13:32, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

An interesting article about the word "Beledi" There’s A Word For Tradition, Quality In Morocco (Apr-14): "Within Morocco and abroad, beldi is being used to market quality boutique-style products to foreigners and Moroccans. Moroccan beldi include raib beldi, thin drinkable yogurt; zebda beldia, homemade or traditional Moroccan butter; and citron beldi, indigenous lemons used to make preserved lemons. In Morocco, McDonalds is jumping on the bandwagon with a specialty sandwich called the “P’tit Beldi” featuring spiced halal meat. Even U.S. grocer Whole Foods is now selling products such as “Beldi: A small, fruity olive from Morocco.”" and "Citron beldi or l’hamd beldi: These are varieties of lemon found throughout Morocco, such as the small doqq lemons (Citrus limonum Risso var. pusilla R) from the Taroudant region outside of Agadir and boussera lemons, or limonette de Marrakesh, often used in traditional recipes." It is clear having a page called "Balady citron" is misleading and confusing. It should be a disambig page. Chesdovi (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

OK. So how about Balady etrog? -- -- -- 20:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

FWIW, none of the Hebrew names including Eretz Israel Etrog seem to be common at all. This includes the he.wiki article, which explains the Corfu/Palestine etrog thing without actually naming the one found in Palestine, only its sub-species. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

"The Moroccan term citron beldi (or l'hamd beldi) translates to "traditional lemon." It refers to specific varieties of lemon which are grown in Morocco..." Traditional Moroccan Lemon Varieties - Citron Beldi, by Christine Benlafquih - a "Moroccan Food Expert". Chesdovi (talk) 23:32, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

(adding my 2c) it is not uncommon for many plants (or many other objects for that matter) to have some common and rare names. Usually I leave the most common one or two names in the lead and have a Naming/etymology/taxonomy section where rare names can be included (these might include local or unusual names). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:30, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Could I suggest renaming to "Palestinian Baladi citron" or "Baladi citron (Palestine)"? Chesdovi (talk) 13:32, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Here אתרוג הארצישראלי (Esrog Ha'Eretzyisraeli) and אתרוגי הארץ (Esrogei Ha'aretz) is used in Hebrew: [3]. Chesdovi (talk) 11:35, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Palestine: State vs. region[edit]

I feel the lead should read: "grown in Israel and historic Palestine (region)", as there is no evidence citron are grown in PA areas, i.e State of Palestine. Chesdovi (talk) 11:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

No objection if its sourced correctly. My reverts were regarding the IP making unconstructive edits so you might have been caught in the crossfire. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Many thanks. Chesdovi (talk) 11:36, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
There is also no evidence the historic plantations were discontinued. In such a case, I think we should assume they still exist till proven otherwise. Which is why I undid my own edit, which was the same as what you are proposing now. Debresser (talk) 13:55, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
Annoyingly the IP muddied the waters due to the personal attacks. Palestine (region) does encompass Palestine (state) so I have no real feelings either way. Its essentially just an opportunity to blue-link to another article. Just saying 'Israel and Palestine' would be correct regardless of where palestine is linked to. I would say point it at whatever can be referenced. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:59, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 4 May 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 18:03, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


Balady citronPalestinian citron1. "Balady citron" is a localised term, and is used for citrons grown in Morocco. 2. There are hardly any scholarly sources which use the term "Balady citron". 3. Scientific papers refer to this particular citron as "Palestine citron". Chesdovi (talk) 16:01, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Strong oppose The article makes the opposite case of this proposal. See also the numerous sources in the section above that prove the usage of the term. Also, I think this proposal violates the nominator's edit restrictions, or at least goes against the spirit of those edit restrictions. Debresser (talk) 20:27, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Err, Chesdovi, didn't we have this discussion a few lines above? I don't have an opinion until I have a look at sources...and I am in the middle of something else currently. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:52, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Incidentally, what this article lacks is some discussion on its relationship to etrog WRT citrons in general in he body of the text...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:56, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose - the Etrog is referred to as "Etrog Eretz Yisraeli" or "Etrog Yisraeli" by the Jews, for whom it is important. Never heard of it being "Palestinian" or "Arab".GreyShark (dibra) 12:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Alternative proposal - merge it into Etrog article. Exactly the same topic.GreyShark (dibra) 12:19, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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