Talk:Baltic states

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Baltic States and Occupation of the Baltic States[edit]

This is very biased writing, which may be acceptable in a political treatise, but not in a historical document. The use of sarcasm is unacceptable.

Example 1: In June 1940, the Red Army occupied the whole territory of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and installed new, pro-Soviet governments in all three countries. Following rigged elections, in which only pro-communist candidates were allowed to run, the newly "elected" parliaments of the three countries formally applied to "join" the USSR in August 1940 and were annexed into it as the Estonian SSR, the Latvian SSR, and the Lithuanian SSR.

Example 2: The new Soviet-installed governments in the Baltic states began to align their policies with current Soviet practices. According to the prevailing doctrine in the process, the old "bourgeois" societies were destroyed so that new socialist societies, run by loyal Soviet citizens, could be constructed in their place.

(58.175.202.174 (talk) 03:40, 8 October 2009 (UTC)) Helen Webberley helenw@bigpond.net.au

Helen, both your examples are factual recountings of events with no interpretation attached. In particular, your first example doesn't even mention that election results were released to the press in London from Moscow by Tass, accidentally, and published, 24 12 hours before the "election". Furthermore, there is no "sarcasm" in either of the examples you provide. The "quotes" are appropriate.VЄСRUМВА  ♪  13:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

note[edit]

Please note that the German version of this page includes Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) as part of the Baltic states. This should be included in the English version since this is not a international regional union such as Benelux, but rather simply a international region. 216.99.54.62 (talk) 17:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Realistically speaking, regardless of what other Wikipedia versions might contain, it would seem rather far-fetched to include Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) as part of the Baltic states. Dr. Dan (talk) 18:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

considering Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) the capital city of former Prussia nowadyas the capital city of Kaliningrad Oblast in Russia a "Baltic state" is flat out redicilous. Somenoe should just fix the German version.--Termer (talk) 21:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Konigsberg was never considered a Baltic State--not every country bordering on the Baltic Sea is automatically a Baltic "State". VЄСRUМВА  ♪  04:00, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually the real problem is the joyous welcoming of Nazis and widespread participation by the locals in the annihilation of Jews--alas, Nazi propaganda. VЄСRUМВА  ♪  04:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
That statement is somewhat confusing. Can you elaborate a little on what you meant? I'm thrown off track since we were discussing Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) here. Dr. Dan (talk) 13:24, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I ran the Baltische Staaten article through a translator. I did not see mention of Konigsberg, but I did find the issue I mentioned. Perhaps I misunderstood, the issue mentioned here is in the German article on Konigsberg? VЄСRUМВА  ♪  16:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
For some reason the German link from the "Baltic States" links to Baltikum. This maybe the cause for the confusion. Just the same, Konigsberg (Kaliningrad) isn't part of them. Dr. Dan (talk) 15:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Correct on both counts. VЄСRUМВА [TALK] 16:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The German link would be more accurate linking this article to Die Baltische Staaten article in the German WP. It seems to be more appropriate. The link would be better served using that existing article rather than Das "Baltikum". Dr. Dan (talk) 19:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, I updated the link. VЄСRUМВА [TALK] 03:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Interesting how my point led to this whole conversation. Where is the definition of Baltic States? Is it set in stone somewhere on a legal document? I think not, therefore it is up for discussion. And Vecrumba, you have problems. 216.99.54.62 (talk) 16:23, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
It really doesn't matter what German WP may consider to be the "Baltic states", this is English wikipedia and thus names are dependent upon common English usage, see WP:COMMONNAME. BTW, I suggest you refactor your comment regarding Vecrumba per WP:NPA. --Martintg (talk) 18:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually no it is not strait forward, for instance the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry on the "Baltic States" says that Finland and Poland could also be included in the definition of Baltic States. As I initially stated, the Baltic States are not an international regional union such as Benelux, but rather simply a international region, therefore there is debate. e.g. is Andorra a southern-European, or a western-European nation? And I find Vercrumba's comment (denial of history) offensive, so I will not "refactor" (not a real word) it. If he wishes to apologize to me that'd be fine though, because my Russian grandfather fought to save his Latvian family. 216.99.54.62 (talk) 05:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Encyclopaedia Britannica says "The name has sometimes been used to include Finland and Poland" otherwise its straight forward: "Republics of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, situated on the eastern shore of the Baltic Sea." If anybody wants to say it in this article on Wikipedia that Poland (Finland is already mentioned) is also sometimes called a "Baltic state", whats the big deal, just go ahead.--Termer (talk) 03:28, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
There's no big deal here. This is not about the Baltic Mare Nostrum. Termer, go ahead and include Germany, Denmark, and Sweden too if you think it's important. It would be much harder to include Norway but you could give it a try. And why should Russia be excluded? As anon 216.99.54.62 told Vecrumba, his Russian grandfather fought to save his Latvian family. Besides it too borders the Baltic Sea. And dear anon, I imagine your grandfather did this in 1944-45. What was he doing for Vecrumba's family in June 1940? Dr. Dan (talk) 03:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

May I clarify this confusing moment? Actually, there are two definitions (or terms) in Russian: "Прибалтика" (Pribaltika) and "Прибалтийские республики" (Pribaltiyskie Respubliki). Both of them were mentioned in this article. The problem, however, is that they are not equivalent. The first definition does include Kaliningrad Oblast as well as Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. The second definition, since literally it means "Baltic Republics", includes those three states only, but does not include Kaliningrad Oblast. So, while the first definition belongs to territory "at Baltic", the second one belongs to aggregate of states, which entirely locate on this territory "at Baltic". Both terms cannot be translated from Russian to English directly, the closest translation is "Baltic States". But we have another problem here, because "Baltic States" is the direct translation of another Russian definition "Балтийские страны" (Baltiyskie strani). This third definition includes all Baltic states without any exception. So, the word "Прибалтика" was mentioned in this article in little bit incorrect context, this is not an exact equivalent to "Baltic States". In fact "Прибалтика" includes three Baltic States (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia) and Kaliningrad Oblast as well. That's why German Wiki mentioned Kaliningrad Oblast in the original version of article (I am not sure if it still does). With respect, Oleg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.167.74 (talk) 05:52, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

an ancient but - useless argumentation whilst http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact is not quoted — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.130.47.86 (talk) 03:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

title[edit]

Whomever chose "Baltic states" as the title, does not know proper English. In standard English a proper name should have both initial letters capitalized. Baltic States is correct. Slaja (talk) 03:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Except it isn't a proper name of anything; it's just a label. - BilCat (talk) 04:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Right you are, BilCat! We may also browse through this book, "The Baltic states: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania": I would not argue that David Jones Smith "does not know proper English" :))). Cherurbino (talk) 09:06, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Iceland?[edit]

Goodness me! The article seems to list Iceland as a Baltic state. No, not even in the broadest sense it is! Have I misread it somehow? - SirteP (talk) 16:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with the above comment, the last time I sailed past Iceland it was in the middle of the North Atlantic! More over it forms part of the GIUK (Greenland-Iceland-UK) Gap. Would somebody, preferably whoever added Iceland to the list, please explain their reasoning? Robodick (talk) 14:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC) Robodick

Limitrophe states[edit]

The term limitrophe states does not deserve a mention in the intro section, if anywhere at all. In reference to the three Baltic countries it has only been used used in some obscure French sources but is otherwise not widely known. In fact, the combination of "Baltic states/countries" and "limitrophe" yields only about 700 hits on Google, many of them leading to Wikipedia and its derivatives. --Vihelik (talk) 00:52, 7 July 2011 (UTC)


The term "state" is misleading and no longer used[edit]

The three Baltic countries used to be called "Baltic states" since they were states of the Soviet Union, today the proper term is Baltic Countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onyxstarr (talkcontribs) 13:11, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

In this context "state" means Sovereign state, and in any case these countries are widely referred to in reliable sources as the "Baltic states". --Nug (talk) 20:28, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
They were colloquially (including Finland) known as the Baltic states after independence, during occupation (USSR, Germany, USSR), and after regaining independence. There was no such thing as a Soviet "state" except for "the" Soviet state. Common English usage/scholarly terminology prevails.PЄTЄRS J V TALK 21:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Maps of 1920[edit]

Territory was clearly defined in 1918 close to Lithuania proper. Either do not put maps from 1920 that were changing during 1919-1920 Lithuanian-Polish war or explain what does it represent correctly. The map represents nonsense which can be easily seen in Soviet-Lithuanian Treaty of 1920. Maps from 1919 should be explained as they represent still ongoing Lithuanian Wars of Independence. EMPerror (talk) 11:58, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

If you're talking about this then yes, that's not particularly useful. Worse, the old caption was very clearly and deliberately misleading - does anyone really think that a Polish "propaganda map" would show Vilnius not in Poland?VolunteerMarek 12:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Yes, map used for early propaganda when Suvalkai were occupied. Later maps extended claims to add newly occupied Vilnius and reduces claims in failed complete occupation of Suvalkija. It is map used for propaganda and should not be here, or should be explained as such.EMPerror (talk) 12:28, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

This map represents modified map of Imperial Russia before 1914 with Kaunas and Vilnius governorates assigned to Lithuania and Suvalkai governorate to Poland for propaganda purposes. It should not be here including dispute dating back to Polish-Lithuanian war. Authentic maps can be used for verification.EMPerror (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

We probably need a better map clearly showing the Brest-Litovsk dividing line, occupation zone as of the signing of the agreement, and superimposing the eventual Baltic states and Poland. I'm not clear, however, who are you saying is the purveyor of propaganda here and to what purpose? VєсrumЬа TALK 20:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Königsberg/Kaliningrad[edit]

What about Königsberg/Kaliningrad? --84.61.149.75 (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Upon gaining freedom from the Russian empire, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, the provinces on the Baltic, became known as the Baltic states, that nomenclature eventually dropping Finland, leaving just other three. Königsberg now Kaliningrad has a different history and is not a "Baltic state" in the geopolitical meaning of that term. VєсrumЬа TALK 19:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
One might wonder how a fact, previously included in the article, has ended up not in it. You know white washing works better when you insert the fact and then explain why this is "wrong", not when you ought right try to deny it even being possible :D ~~Xil (talk) 14:27, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Economics[edit]

There is obviously an Estonian bias in Economics section. I think we should update this section with more objective information including all three of the Baltic Countries, because the Wikipedia is not a business or investment attraction platform where you can exclude parts of information just to make your country to look good. EqualizeWorld (talk) 19:36, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

What, specifically, needs to be fixed. I don't see any obvious adverts for foreign investment. VєсrumЬа TALK 20:27, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Etymology and meaning of term[edit]

I'm somewhat confused as to why "Baltic states" means what it does. Logic would suggest it meant either all the states surrounding the Baltic (analagous to "Mediterranean countries", or the states inhabited by the Baltic peoples (i.e. just Latvia and Lithuania, but not Estonia). Of course, language rarely follows logic, but the article needs to better explain how the current usage came about (including why Finland ceased to be considered a Baltic state). The Etymology and toponymic history section is rather confusing and doesn't really help answer this question - it contains too much general history (which should be transplanted into the Histories section) and not enough about the origin and useage of the term "Baltic states" Iapetus (talk) 11:12, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I think I did a pretty good job :D – Baltic_states#Features_shared_by_the_Baltic_states This is something I've wanted to do for quite a while, the term indeed is contrived/convoluted. Someone will probably accuse that section of synthesis but most of the stuff mentioned is "common knowledge" discussed with references in the specific articles I linked to in there.
Also agree about the "toponymic history" section, a lot of corollary information but the question what is Baltic states? doesn't really get addressed (I wouldn't have it in me to really remove anything from there though.) Neitrāls vārds (talk) 13:11, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
A good question was raised by Wardog. But after reading this article I think we can assume that there is no logic, meaning or real true etymology. It's certainly not geographical as it only includes three of the sovereign states on that sea. Nor is is ethnically or linguistically based as Estonians are Finnic people who speak a Finnic language. It's just a term which is used in the English language and other languages. As Finland is rarely mentioned as a Baltic state today I guess in time Estonia and maybe all three will no longer be grouped in this way. The more developed they become, the more their education, finance and policy institutions become intertwined with those in the Nordic states the more they'll be Nordic rather than Baltic.--XANIA - ЗAНИAWikipedia talk | Wikibooks talk 22:44, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Been quite a while. The Russian "Baltic provinces" were originally roughly today's Estonia and Latvia. After independence from the empire, after WWI, the "Baltic" nomenclature was expanded to encompass Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, all newly independent from the Russian empire. With WWII and Soviet occupation and annexation, and Finland remaining independent, "Baltic States" became the encompassing term for the three annexed countries--the only countries to "disappear" in the aftermath of WWII. Today's "Baltic States" is ultimately a geopolitical designation. VєсrumЬа TALK 02:28, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

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1000 Baltic Challenge[edit]

Hi. I was wondering if anybody who actively works on the Baltic states, Estonian, Lithuanian and Latvian articles, would be interested in launching your own Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Baltic), based on the Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Nordic) and Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge. The idea would be to try to bring about 1000 article improvements and creations on this region as an enjoyable challenge and potentially things like National Contests with prizes. If you'd be interested and think it's something you might regularly contribute to sign up below. If there is interest we can move this to a project somewhere and set something up, thanks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:16, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Participants[edit]

  1. Dr. Blofeld 19:23, 26 September 2016 (UTC), Very busy but will try to help occasionally.
  2. Yakikaki (talk) 15:58, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Both agree on merging into Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Nordic), so if anybody wants to contribute to Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania they can do so as part of that.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:38, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the fine work I've already seen you accomplish. :-) VєсrumЬа TALK 02:29, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Estonia & The Nordic Countries[edit]

The topic of Estonia being Nordic is only gathering importance in Estonia, both on a cultural and political level. The direction towards the Nordics is an official governmental theme.

Most young Estonians who have been born after the soviet union, define themselves as Nordic ("põhjamaalane"). They should not be denied their identity, just because they were occupied by the Soviets for 50 years. It seems very strange to force the Baltic identity on Estonia, if many or most young people do not feel a connection to that definition. Probably because estonians are Finnic and not Balts, while latvians and lithuanians are Balts.

I will not go into a long historical discussion about why Estonia is Nordic, but in general, Estonia shares almost all the historical points with other nordic countries. Starting from the Vikings, Thor, Rune alphabet, the climate, Sauna, Jul, etc.

The only remaining question has been the flag. Mind you, Estonia almost got the cross flag in 1919, but the current flag was a student organization flag and students fought in the freedom war under it, so the tricolour attained a meaning from the war. This gave an emotional meaning to the tricolour and so it came to be.

That being said, the cross flag is in use in Estonia.

On the island of Vormsi: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Estonia-nordic-cross-flag-02.jpg

The former prime minister wearing it in parliament: http://f2.pmo.ee/f/2008/12/18/107565t81h8b52.jpg

An athlete winning a competition, flying a cross flag: http://p.ocdn.ee/17/i/2015/12/13/jchsaod3.tid.jpg

Santa claus in parliament with the cross flag: http://f.pmo.ee/f/2008/12/18/107373t81hda9d.jpg

I guess the only issue is that because it's not official, people are using different versions of it.

A very high-profile conference on the same subject: http://www.norden.ee/en/about-us/news/item/8543-estonia-and-the-nordic-countries-estonia-as-a-nordic-country-conference-summary-and-videos

---

I understand that Estonia is not currently a full member of the Nordic Council (it is a member though). But still, the case of Estonia should be included on the main site as a subtheme. It is a topic that is very much active and in a developing status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaanMatti (talkcontribs) 05:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

---

I will add one more comment: the GDP PPP per capita of Estonia is now at 30,000, while that of Finland is 42,000. This is 72% of the living standard of Finland. And more in the capital Tallinn. So the argument of low living standards is not correct anymore. Estonia is very close to a traditional scandinavian living standard.

Also the LGBT rights have come a long way in Estonia in the last 25 years.


This article is about Baltic States, which currently is a political region accepted by mainstream. That some Estonians, including politicians at times, are trying to build some other image by cherry picking every fact making them look remotely Nordic is no secret and it wouldn't even be a problem, if there was a bit longer description about it here, if it would remain neutral. However using these propaganda tactics here just results in that the article turns into lenghty comparison of countries (that doesn't even serve this Nordic Estonia story), not article on a region. And that's also why I removed LGBT map - it has absolutely nothing to do with region or what's described in that section, it's just one of those minor things that at a glance look diffrent. Furthermore on political level this isn't really as clear cut as you think - say, the link I rescued yesterday is interview from late 1990s apperently just after they had first come up with this, it has their minister of foreign affairs, later president Ilves saying that he is not questioning Baltic unity, but rather it's an image thing and suggests Latvia should also claim to be Nordic, secondly I remember this interview with current Estonian president from few months ago in which she said that the image of three Baltic States as sisters is an asset and that there should be cooperation not neccesarilly called either Baltic or Nordic. Similarly Estonia doesn't seem to have problem with taking part in regional coorporation projects and organizations even when "Baltic" is in their name. This doesn't at all look like how people act when reclaiming identity and renouncing another identity that has been pushed on them ~~Xil (talk) 16:29, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

---

I removed the language from the LGBT map that might sound negative. I think something that affects 10% of the population is important and if it sounds negative, then maybe it's something that will force the LV/LT governments to change their laws to help the 100,000+ of their own people whom this affects.

I understand that you are saying that the Nordic thing in Estonia is a fringe movement, limited to lone politicians. This might have been the case in 2001, but not in 2016. If you look at the article referenced, it talks about the seminar. All the heads of the current political coalition were there. Also the new president has said that she considers Estonia to be nordic. And also the previous prime minister and the new prime minister, etc. This is no longer a fringe movement but mainstream. The wikipedia article should reflect this.

I was driving and thinking about this. What is needed is a separate wiki article about the whole thing. So I'll start writing and referencing one. But the one sentence in the summary should remain, because it is factually correct in 2016. JaanMatti (talk) 16:52, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

@JaanMatti: You already broke the three-revert rule. I advise you to stop it and discuss unless you want to have a word with the admins. One more revert and you will go here.Sabbatino (talk) 17:43, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
@Sabbatino: Go ahead, I do not think you have any authority to decide if something that is correctly referenced is appropriate or not. This sounds more like a latvian-lithuanian POV. JaanMatti (talk) 18:35, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
You also fail to understand that nobody says that Estonia=Balts. Balts and Baltic states are two different things, which I see that you aren't familiar with. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
And the estonian government is actively moving towards being considered as a nordic state. So obviously this needs to be quoted on the "baltic states" page. JaanMatti (talk) 18:40, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm also very well aware that Balts does not mean Baltic countries, thank you. Estonians are Finnic. The current discussion is not about that at all. It is about what the Estonian government is actively doing in 2016. And this has been referenced. What else do you want? The discussion is not about what the definition of the baltic states is or was in someone's opinion. That is for everyone to decide for themselves. JaanMatti (talk) 18:59, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
It shouldn't be, but you again point that "Estonians are Finnic", which shows that you are confusing these two subjects. Xil gave his opinion, but for some reason you ignored it and just keep trying to win the argument by giving some dubious claims (one source doesn't mean anything), which are accepted by the minority. Since this is controversial at the moment, it should only be included in the prose, which is already added here. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:25, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
This here is a draft article I started on the same topic. It is not a dubious or a minority claim. It is the official position of the government of Estonia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Estonia_as_a_Nordic_country JaanMatti (talk) 19:42, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Full article on the political movement: Estonia as a Nordic country JaanMatti (talk) 21:13, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Incomplete article, which will mostly likely get deleted. One source for every sentence doesn't make the article notable. This can't even be called an article as it is poor in every way (grammar, sources, etc). – Sabbatino (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Seems to correspond to the notability guidelines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability . If you have specific feedback then you are very welcome to add it on the page JaanMatti (talk) 21:45, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
The article was reviewed & approved. JaanMatti (talk) 22:41, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
It is a fringe view outside of Estonia and it seems it isn't completely accepted in it - as I allready cited sources above showing even politicians saying this are not consistent in their claims, not to mention that from what I've personally seen among ordinary Estonians the opinions are split. But giving some mention to notable fringe views is not a problem, the problem is putting too much emphasis on them (as Sabbatino pointed out it's usually done in text, not lead section) and describing what clearly is a viewpoint and a political strategy that emerged in late 1990s as a fact, historical "truth" and supporting it whith cherry picked observations about culture, language and whatever else. Supposing you can write a neutral article about it, though, it would be far better idea to move everything about it there and just leave what text there allready is here and link to your article, just like there are articles on Baltoscandia, Intermarium and other grand political concepts of the kind.
And with LGBT map, again it's not that it is not important in general, but this article is not about LGBT issues, it's not even something mentioned in text and there is no reason to do it, because, despite being hot current issue in politics, it's just one thing, just consider a diffrent example for ilustration: tax policy is currently very hottly debated in Latvia, comparisions with neighbouring countries are made and it affects nearly everyone, and that's just off the top of my head, there are number of such issues and if there's map about LGBT you could as well make maps about that and ten other things and place them there. Plus it's not even like article lacks pictures, that spot allready looks pretty overcorwded with them. ~~Xil (talk) 01:29, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Nordic identity of Estonia[edit]

A single-sentence mention of this does belong the lead, if the entire article is about the grouping of what are the baltic states. As for the reference, fine, we can use any of the references used on the other wiki page. For example Estonia - Nordic With A Twist. It is unobjective and POV to keep a mention of this from the lead. JonSonberg (talk) 12:30, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

This is the reason on why you were blocked. Instead of discussion, you just keep edit-warring. This doesn't belong in the lede as that is already mentioned somewhere in the article and there are two users that don't approve with this addition (me and Xil against you). – Sabbatino (talk) 13:17, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
I claim that it belongs to the lead, because it's about the very definition of the article. It would not belong to the lead if it were about some random historical fact. But this is about the definition of the article itself. JonSonberg (talk) 13:19, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Definition criticism[edit]

Fine about the lead. I'll start a criticism section of the term / definition instead JonSonberg (talk) 17:34, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

This just moves all the problems to diffrent section - it still is off topic political agenda that should not get more than passing mention in this article. Not to mention that the section mostly contains very questionable statements ~~Xil (talk) 22:34, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
Criticism is not off-topic in Wikipedia. Following the logic of your sentence, if wikipedia existed in 1988, Latvian independence movement from the soviet union should also have not been noted on a wikipedia page. I don't agree to that logic. Tag the sentences that you think are questionable. JonSonberg (talk) 23:02, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Ok, questionable sentences:

  • Estonia especially has attempted to construct a Nordic identity for itself and denounced Baltic identity, despite still seeking to preserve close relationship with other countries in the region. (Apparently only Ilves had that position, so current statement is exaggeration)
Also kaljulaid JonSonberg (talk) 02:59, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
  • The term "Baltic states" has been criticised, because the term has it's roots in politics instead of national grouping or history ... (Given reference says that roots are in politics and recent history and does not mention "national grouping", whatever that means)
removed the second part and replaced with a quote from a different publication JonSonberg (talk) 03:15, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
  • ...with the only shared similarity between the three countries being a common history of occupations and it's aftermath (Neither reference is relevant; one gives overview of Lithuanian history, in other British politician claims Eastern Europe is bad term and Estonia in Nordic)
  • By 814, the Finno-Ugric tribes of today's Finland and Estonia spanned the majority of today's Scandinavia (That statement doesn't make sense, tribes of Estonia and Finland couldn't span outside named territories by definition),
said "today's estonia and latvia"

while the Baltic tribes of today's Latvia and Lithuania were more or less in their current area. (Actually also to east and south - no need to trust over 100 years old map as a source, also Finnic and Baltic populations boarder corresponds more to 11.-12. century [1]; but it all doesn't even matter as I fail to see how it relates to criticism of Baltic states concept and it applies to following history related statements too)

  • In the medieval period, the areas of Estonia and Latvia were considered to be a part of the "Northern countries" (Source is another sourceless Wiki page??)
  • Lithuanians on the other hand ruled their own kingdom and it's expansion to the southeast. (Some national romantic rhetoric - few nobles ruled the kingdom, not Lithuanian people - and another wikilink reference)
  • ... more statements about history (What's the point?)
  • During the interwar period, also Finland was considered a Baltic state ... (Beginning of that segment is correct, but it's already previously discussed in article and lacks connection to subtopic "Criticism of the definition" - nobody denies that Baltic states concept used to be different)
  • It is believed that Estonia would have been part of the Nordic Countries, had it not been occupied by the Soviet Union in 1939. (Source is a Neo-Nazi forum post??)
I'll comment on or fix the other issues tomorrow but what makes it a neo-nazi blog post? Looks like a normal discussion to meJonSonberg (talk) 02:58, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
  • A great majority of Estonians consider themselves to be Nordic people ("põhjamaalased"), Northern people or Finno-Ugric people, instead of or in addition to Baltic. (Unknown sources, look like cuts from opinion stories or readers' letters from newspapers)
I can improve the sources. No estonian would debate this claim.
  • The phenomenon of Estonia's movement toward the nordic countries has spawned a collection of online comics (Not sure that phenomenon exists, but not relevant anyway in Baltic states article)
Seems to connect very well to the "criticism" section of the article, as it's about the definition...and it's the criticism section. JonSonberg (talk) 03:15, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Many adolescents in Estonia define themselves as nordic and see Estonia as part of the Nordic countries, with the corresponding social contacts. (Reference is to some pupil's essey, which even doesn't state those things)
  • The biggest historical and cultural differences from the three exist between Estonia and Lithuania, influenced by the differences in historical affiliations, genetic grouping, language and modern economic partners. (No reference, doesn't belong to subsection "Criticism of the definition" and strange content - how "genetic grouping" influence "historical and cultural differences"?)

In conclusion, based on mentioned problems, I strongly recommend author of those lines, before further edits, to examine following Wikipedia guidelines: Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view --Minnekon (talk) 02:13, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that this is not criticism, this is the same political agenda. Collapse of Soviet Union was far from simmilar, but if you want that anology - we don't have Latvian Independence movement framed as "criticism of Soviet Union" anywhere on Wikipedia and we don't have articles on Soviet Union that give promenent coverage to Latvian Independence movement, rather than the subject matter. ~~Xil (talk) 08:33, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
The same can be said about every other independence movement in the Soviet Union. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:39, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Baltic unity[edit]

POV / common sense question, nothing to do with the article content: If both Finland and Lithuania were to be attacked tomorrow by Russia, who do you think more estonians would volunteer to protect? If the answer is Finland, then why is Estonia included as a "baltic state"? Or "baltic unity" even talked about? Shouldn't the reason of a common group of countries be, including other reasons, increased protection? I think keeping up illusions is dangerous. And the answer to the question above is obviously Finland, like in the previous two times in history. Estonia belongs to a different group. JonSonberg (talk) 01:07, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

..."nothing to do with the article content" ... and
I wish "Finnic states" or "Finnic countries" existed as a geopolitical term, because everything would make more sense then JonSonberg (talk) 01:25, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
Created a Finnic countries page... JonSonberg (talk) 01:41, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
You can't create a term and corresponding article to Wikipedia because you wish it would exist! Wikipedia:No original research Start a blog and you can write there anything you want. --Minnekon (talk) 02:19, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
Found people using the term in blogs and forums... so I just referenced those. Yes to the blog proposal JonSonberg (talk) 02:43, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
Estonia would help Lithuania, because it is existentially important to it's own defense -NATO would probably not help a country that has betrayed the alliance and occupation of either Lithuania or Latvia would cut Estonia off from rest of the World. And such speculation is completely irrelevant to discussion of article's content. You need to stop pushing this one political agenda and think of reality in which everything is not about Estonia being Nordic or not, otherwise this is getting ridicilous ~~Xil (talk) 09:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Blogs and forums are not reliable sources. Please read WP:UGC and WP:RSSELF. And stop this silly POV pushing, which doesn't have any academic source to back it up. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:37, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Soviet effect on GDP per capita[edit]

Would be great to create a table of the three countries' GDP per capita in the 30s and in the 90s up to 2016. Compared to Finland, Poland, Russia, Sweden for example. This would be a factual, visual graph that shows how badly the soviet occupation affected the three countries. I don't know where to find GDP data for latvia and lithuania in the 30s though. Maybe someone can help? JonSonberg (talk) 16:45, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Look here they had some materials about this. But the thing with GDP in particular is that it apperently was not a common statistic back then, so you could only get it from calculations of modern academics, but those too appear to be of questionable quality and precision ~~Xil (talk) 18:54, 21 December 2016 (UTC)