Talk:Bangalore/Archive 1

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Telugu blog

Wikipedia is not a Telugu blog / web site to advertise baseless arguements about the origin of the name "bengaluru". The arguements found in the article "telugu history behind name of Bengaluru" does not help foster harmony and peace in India's most cosmopolitian city. I have taken the liberty to delete the article. Some of the arguements betray our inherent disunity and lack of knowledge about our history.

Dinesh Kannambadi

This is not about making this a telugu Blog. This is about trying to get an understanding about the sociological makeup of Bangalore as a district. Most people like Dinesh who settled in Bangalore from other parts of karnataka do not understand Bangalore. The people of Bangalore speak a language that draws both from Telugu and Kannada. Just as Kodava and Tulu draw from Malayalam.

Document with original Bangalore city plan

"The document describing the city as he conceptualised it, written in Telugu the commonly spoken language of this region, is still preserved. This language is still spoken in the villages of Bangalore, Yelahanka, Devanahalli, Doddaballapur, Hoskote, Anekal and Hosur districts."

Can someone prove this with references instead of ambiguous claims??

Dinesh Kannambadi

Theories on origin of name and Conclusions therein

Whats this theory about IT etc? All native Bangaloreans speak a language that draws from Telugu and Kannada. Dinesh, when you settle in Urban Bangalore, you have an expectation that Bangalore was always part of the Mysore kingdom and purely kannada speaking. Moreover, the mere presence of large numbers of Tamil does not mean that Bangalore or Kolar had long periods of Tamil rule. Nor does Tamil rule mean wide use of Tamil as a language. Which part of Karnataka are you from? You must know a lot about the people of that region of Bangalore as I know about Bangalore. I have good material to talk about this. But I am still searching for more detailed material and will prove with data.

I see several hastily put together theories to the origin of the name "Bengaluru". I happened to go thru a blog site linked to this page at the bottom. The blog is called "Telugu origins ...." something. My question is how come nobody ever brought up these issues prior to the government's decision to change the name. To me the answer is simple. Now that the government is giving a "Kannada" identity to the name, people from outside Karnataka but settled in Bangalore are all too eager to link Bangalore's name to their own roots (be it Telugu or Tamil). A few years back many people were all too sure that other cities like Hyderabad would surpass Bangalore in IT (which could still happen). I think this is a natural reaction. One inscription from 17th centuary in front of a temple or one document in Telugu supposedly written during Kempe Gowda's time does not mean anything, just as a 9th century Kannada Inscription in Jabalpur. Madhya Pradesh (dated to the Imperial Rashtrakutas) does not mean that Jabalpur had majority Kannada population. It only indicates that Kannada had spread as far north as Jabalpur. This period in history is called the time of "imperial Kannada". It is very easy to come to hasty conclusions with a knee jerk reactions. Bangalore itself is located at the junction of 3 states (Karnataka/AP and Tamil Nadu). Kolar which is the district right next to Bangalore was the battleground for countless number of wars, especially between competing Kannada and Tamil kingdoms and was called Kolahalapura (city of destruction). Parts of South Karnataka as been keenly fought over by these two great competitors for ages, mainly over Kaveri river. It is not surprising that one can find Hoysala/Chola/Vijayanagar/Nolamba structures/monuments in this part of Karnataka. Even today Bangalore is a mixture of Kannada/Telugu and Tamil people. It makes no sense for Kannada and Telugu people to battle over whether "Bengaluru" is a Kannada or a Telugu name because both languages emerged from "old Kannada" that was the main spoken language across the deccan possibly from 7th century - 12th century during the rule of the mighty Chalukyas of Badami & Kalyana and Rashtrakutas of Manyaketha who ruled from what is today Karnataka, just as it makes no sense for Marathi's of Belgaum to claim it has to be a part of Maharashtra. The earliest Marathi inscriptions dated 981 AD were discovered in Hassan district, just like the earliest Kannada inscriptions from Halmidi dated 425AD -450AD, a village in Hassan. What we call today as Karnataka has given India a lot, a lot of action has always happened here and still continues that tradition. This region we call Karnataka is the origin of carnatic music, udupi cuisine, haridasa movement, Vesera style of architecture (also called the Karnata Dravida or deccan style or chalukya-hoysala style), home to some of India's mightiest empires (Chalukyas/Rashtrakutas/Vijayanagar Empire), Indias oldest silk culture (mysore silk)& our IT revolution. Hence its no wonder that people of different languages and cultures want to share our successes as their success too. What matters most is that the people of Karnataka create an eclectic atmosphere so that talent from other parts of the country can add to our own achivements and embellish the name of Karnataka. This is what the world sees. Lets all be proud of that and call it peace.

Dinesh Kannambadi

ORIGIN OF NAME

Telugu closely resembles 'OLD KANNADA or HalaGannada". The Telugu script itself was derived from the "old Kannada" script over a prolonged period starting from around 13th century AD.The Ganga inscription/vir gal(hero stone) indicating the earliest name of Bangalore is probabaly "old Kannada", NOT Telugu. The Ganga dynasty of Talkad (western Gangas) are a proven Kannada kingdom, as all their inscriptions are in old Kannada. Please refer to history of Kannada and Telugu languages for better understanding of the issue. In Kannada literature, the Rashtrakuta classic "Kavirajamarga" (9th century AD) makes references to earlier Kannada works written by Ganga King Durvinitha around begining of 6th century. Please refer to "History of Karnataka By Arthikaje" at http://www.ourkarnataka.com/history.htm to better understand history of Gangas of Talkad. Lets have a discussion about this. Lets have real proof and references.

Dinesh Kannambadi


Shopping in Bangalore??

I was surprised to see that a shopping section does not exist for Bangalore. With the rise of the Mall culture in India, Bangalore is becoming one of the major shopping hubs in India. If no one has a problem, I don't mind starting a section on this topic.

Nitin.

A section for shopping will not be appropriate here. Take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian cities or Mumbai, on the sections needed for Indian cities. Info about shopping can probably go under culture. Right now, there is an urban life section, which needs to be merged with culture. You can expand more on Bangalore's shopping centres at Wikitravel's [Bangalore page].

PamriTalk 04:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

House rules for nicknames

I would like everyone to look into some house rules as far as monikers and nicknames go. We've seen many nicknames for Bangalore like City of Lakes, London of Asia, Fashion Capital of India and now Pensioners Paradise, and so on. I think it makes sense to consider just a couple of nicknames, since, even on a national scale no one really equates them to mean Bangalore straight off the bat. Silicon Valley of India is now an "established" nickname and Garden City is what Bangalore was historically called. I can't think of any reason to keep adding nicknames. They contribute little to the overall understanding of the city itself and are often very misleading. Furthermore, they may not necessarilly be accepted by everyone in the region, let alone the nation. Comments welcome. AreJay 02:33, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • While i agree with the gist of your comment, I disagree that we need to include nicknames that bangalore is known for at the international level and that they don't contribute to the city's overall understanding. For eg, Bangalore was called 'Pensioner's Paradise' because it did have a large no. of people who were working in PSU's,Defence forces,etc., who preferred to settle here and which in turn explains the large educated middle class.

The 'city of lakes' nick isn't far fetched, since Bangalore had atleast a 100 lakes, most of which were taken over by land sharks & the corporation. Heck, my layout in b'lore was an old lake & the tank bed still passes thro my outhouse.(me going into nostalgia :-D ). To summarise, we should not make blanket policies, but rather decide on a case by case basis. pamri 13:47, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

  • Thanks for replying. Just saying "Pensioners Paradise" or whatever dosen't really tell anyone about Bangalore, especially if those people have never been to the city and want to know more about it. I makes more sense to elaborate and say why it was/is a pensioner's paradise (as you have indicated above), etc. If I've never been to the city and I visit this page and I see "Pensioner's paradise", I'd want to know why it is called that. Merely citing nicknames dosen't add to the understanding of the city. AreJay 15:45, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I agree I should have added the info or edited the article. Will do that. pamri 13:13, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)

Clean up

I will be moving all of "famous people from Bangalore" to another page. This page is huge and looks disorganized. Also keep in mind that Wikipedia is not meant to be a links repository. It is a free content encylopedia. Please visit the India page to get an idea of how I plan to organize links on this page. The "Related Topics" heading in that entry seems a better organized way to structure Bangalore related articles on this page. AreJay 15:45, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Englpiesh

Englpiesh -- I think this is a made-up word. Could not find a reference to this on any website except wikipedia and its derived websites. Jay 17:58, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I live in bangalore and i've never heard the word Englpiesh.

Famous Visitors

Should the section "Famous Visitors to Bangalore" be included? The list given in the article is just too short. Other famous visitors happen to be JK Rowling, Bill Gates, Sylvester Stallone, The Rolling Stones, The Scorpions, Elton John, Bryan Adams, Pink Floyd, Amitabh Bachchan, Hrithik Roshan, Abdul Kalam, Tony Blair and so on... The city is also a home for many well-known faces in the world of IT. And I feel the more information on the relation between outsourcing, BPO offices, call centres and Bangalore should be added. Guest, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Don't include it please. Bangalore being an important and happening city will recieve plenty of visitors, famous and infamous. I don't think its relevant.

Bangalored

Would the person who deleted the "Don't get Bangalored" paragraph please explain why? RickK 06:09, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

Right, please, put it back. Being a european, I learnt about that stuff in this article. So I consider that it should be left, so everybody knows about such a paranoid american reaction and american hate of other peoples. I consider it also as an hommage in disguise for Bangalore's success. Hoping that many Bangalores will emerge on all continents, for the sake of the world economic development, I suggest as a motto for the world "Let us fill the world with Bangalores" --Pgreenfinch 08:57, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • Sigh. RickK 04:27, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • Yes, sigh, --Pgreenfinch 07:13, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • I'll tell you why "Bangalored" should be left out. I was born and partly brought up in Bangalore and I live in the United States. There are lot of things that have made Bangalore prominent -- "Bangalored" is not one of them! "Bangalored" if anything, is a reflection of the paranoia of a bunch of slackers who just couldn't keep up with the competition than anything else. I do not consider it to be hommage (in disguise or otherwise) to Bangalore. I consider it to be hurtful and insensitive. If you want to talk about "Bangalored", take it to the outsourcing article. There are a billion things that can be included under the economy section and "Bangalored" is obscure and trivial and has nothing to do with anything. It does not deserve to be there. AreJay 15:48, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • I feel it should be added as a seperate article and should be linked in 'See also'. I agree while it is interesting does not fit in here.
  • Some major renovations under economic development. Added stuff relating to HAL, NAL and ISRO. Moved "outsourcing" paragraph to appropriate secition under outsourcing. This is an obscure, meaningless topic that does nothing apart from highlight the paranoia of some people. There are more interesting and pertinent topics to add in the economy section than that.

Infrastructural woes

Should temporal Information (final paragraph in "infrastructural woes") be included in a WikiPedia article? Not that "infrastructural woes" is temporal, but the paragraph seems to cover the recent happenings in Bangalore. And opinions such as "These events have apparently been consequences of Karnataka's new Chief Minister's -- N Dharm Singh's -- irreverence to the city's infrastructure." makes it look like a news column rather than an encyclopedia article ;) -- Sanjeeth

Yes, that ought to be either removed or at least reworded. -- Sundar 10:15, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
This section should not be removed as it represents an important chapter in the evolution of this city from a small town to a large city housing big industries. It could be reworded of course but removing it is like erasing away a part of it's reality which made it most famous all over the world. --manik

Have removed temporal POV - "Most of the initial excitement over Bangalore recovering from its infrastructural woes has now died down. It is suspected that Bangalore will lose out to competition from Chennai and Hyderabad. Bangalore may be Bangalored is the phrase invented to described the above" Will the anon who added this please clarify? --Ambar 09:20, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

According to me No city will be able to overtake Bangalore in any aspect...i have seen almost all important cities and feel Bangalore is far more better than Hyderabad or any other.....in all aspects including intelligent manpower....u cant live without telgu in Hyderabad ....but Bangalore is really Cosmopolitan...lifestyle is really unbeleivable...Bangalore is Awesome...while walking on streets of Bangalore i felt that i was not in India...and ofcourse Bangalore Rocks....Bangalore is really awesome and fantastic indian city..... India Is Really Proud with Bangalore

Population

While not remotely an expert, I first read the entry on Bangalore recently, and was surprised to find it described as India's third largest city. Looking around at several web sources (including Wikipedia itself), it seems pretty clear that Mumbai, Delhi, and Calcutta/Kolkata are each over 15M (the first two close to 20M), while Bangalore is less than half that. The sources I have seen may not be 100% current or accurate, but they are not that far off. Actually, Chennai/Madras appears to be a bit larger, and Hyderabad just about the same as, Bangalore. But the last are within the likely inaccuracies of population estimates. --Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 04:03, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The statistic you are quoting from is accurate, but reflect "major urban agglomerations" (what they call "metropolitan areas" in the United States) rather than the actual size of the city. An agglomeration includes the city itself, plus surrounding suburbs and sattelite cities. However, if you check the statistic for the size of the city (the link is provided at the end of the sentence that says "third largest city.."), you'll find that Bangalore is larger than both Chennai and Calcutta. Also, the term "agglomeration" dosen't really hold much meaning for Bangalore, because this is an area where most of its people live within the city itself. I'm not sure what the statistics are on that, but if you check the population of Bangalore city vs. the population of Bangalore urban agglomeration, I think you'll find the city accounts for about 75-80% of the agglomeration population. Hope this helps. AreJay 16:20, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I put in a parenthetical noting urban areas. The size of a "city proper" is often a somewhat arbitrary political/historical issue that does not reflect real demographic and economic trends. For example, in a USAian context, we pretty universally (and correctly) speak of Minneapolis/St.Paul, even though they are legalistically separate jurisdictions. OTOH, Los Angeles is quite a ways down the list of "largest US cities" according to administrative boundaries, but in a everyday language sense is the "2nd largest US city" (and pushing at 1st largest). --Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 01:22, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What I'm trying to get at with my argument here is that unlike other cities in India which have satellite townships/suburbs, Bangalore dosen't. Therefore, within the context of your argument, the term "city" (and any statictic therein) clearly articulates the "real demographic and economic trends" of Bangalore. You are right when you note that in an American context, urban areas warrant a discussion. A discussion of Chicago, for example, and its suburbs correctly identifies the demographic trends of "Chicagoland" (city and suburbs) because of the number of people that live in the suburbs, but contribute, economically to the city of Chicago. Also consider the wide divergence of the population of Chicago as a city and Chicago as an urban area (2.841 million vs. 9.418 million). You will not find such a divergence from a Bangalore point of view (4.91 million vs. 6.06 million), simply because the people that identify demographically with the city of Bangalore live, and work within the city. The term "urban area" really has no meaning for this city. AreJay 14:41, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Aaggh! What AreJay writes in "disagreement" with my point is actually exactly what I'm trying to include in the entry! Some urban areas (population density clusters) correspond with city limits pretty well, other urban areas do not so correspond. Bangalore City==Bangalore urban area; but Kolkata City!=Kolkata urban area. It's not a difference between US and India, a similar distinction occurs in most every country.

When we vernacularly talk about the size of various cities, more often than not we really mean "urban area." No one in the USA, for example would normally say that "LA is the 10th largest US city" without adding something like "in a technical sense, based on city borders." I dare say that no one in India would describe Kolkata as "India's seventh largest city" without similar caveats about "in a technical/legal sense." I'm not against including the stuff about population within the city borders, but it is deceptive to omit any reference to what most folks mean: urban areas. --Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:41, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Let me be concrete here. I first read the Bangalore entry last week, not having much knowledge about Bangalore. In the first paragraph I read it was the "third largest city in India" with some considerable surprise. Sure, I thought, it's a major city, but what about Mumbai, Calcutta, Dheli, which I know are huge?! (some other cities I knew as major, but not clearly larger than Bangalore). After putting it in the back of my brain for a couple days, it just felt like soemthing wasn't right about what I read. Now I understand the technical/legal sense in which the claim was correct, but the overall impression initially given was certainly wrong. What was wrong is that normal people normally think of "metropolitan area" when they discuss the size of cities, whether or not the city borders correspond very well with a metropolitan area. The point need not belabored in the entry, but it should not be omitted entirely. --Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:57, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)


I don't know why you or anyone else would be "considerably surprised" to hear that Bangalore is India's third largest city. It was always a major city and is now the fastest growing city in the country and has been for sometime. I doubt you are going to elicit any element of surprise from anyone living in and familiar with India with that statement.
You also go on to say "..but what about Mumbai, Calcutta, Dheli, which I know are huge?!". Well, what about them??? Two out of the three cities you just mentioned are larger than Bangalore in terms of the population of the city and the urban area. There really is no contest between Delhi and Bangalore or Mumbai and Bangalore. Those two cities are many times larger than Bangalore. You also contend that "several" smaller cities have larger metropolitan areas. This is untrue. Out of all the cities in India that are smaller than Bangalore only Calcutta and Chennai have larger metropolitan areas. [1]. That's not exactly "several".
I don't know what all that "technical/legal sense" talk was all about. If I say Calcutta is the 4th largest city in India, I mean it is the 4th largest city in India! If I want to talk to the metropolitian area, I'd say Calcutta is the 3rd largest urban agglomeration in India! I don't see the reason for any rider or caveat there. It is only misleading if you don't understand the difference between a city and urban area.
All that aside, I will incorporate some sense of the variation in city vs. urban area in the edit I'm about to make. AreJay 23:00, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'm perfectly happy with the way you phrased it now (almost the same as my first try, in fact). Remember that not all readers of Wikipedia are demographers, legislators, or urban planners. For 98% of readers, the distinction between "city" and "urban area" is fuzzy, and mostly accidental. If the state of CA USA were to change the boundaries of Los Angeles, or the state of West Bengal were to change the boundaries of Kolkata, each city could triple in size overnight without anyone moving in our out (and such administrative/jurisdicational changes are far from unheard of). The ordinary, predominant, sense of "city" that does not necessarily reflect jurisdicational boundaries is really very sensible. Moreover, the entries for a large majority of the cities listed in Wikipedia (at least from the limited sample I've checked), and certainly in Brittanica or the like, give both city and metro-area numbers for clarification. --Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 02:41, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Notice also that Wikipedia itself is far from as unambivalent about the meaning of city than AreJay proclaims is self-evident. The definition given in Wikipedia does not say: "A geographic region under common jurisdiction" but rather "A city is an urban area, differentiated from a town, village, or hamlet by size, population density, importance, or legal status." In fact, the first part of the definition claims, contra AreJay that a city is an urban area; the second clause lists legal status as just one of several possible differentiating factors. --Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 02:50, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Glad we're on some sort of agreement. I'd just like to point out though that you don't have to be a demographer, legislator or urban planner (I certainly don't claim to be any one of them) to know the distinction between a city and an urban area. As you correctly point out, most entries on Wikipedia give both city and metro-area numbers for clarification. You will find that the Bangalore article has always displayed statistics on city and metro-area numbers and clearly distinguished the difference.(see right hand side table on article page). They are updated as and when new numbers are available. AreJay 13:37, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is no way Bangalore is bigger than Chennai or Calcutta, even including all its suburbs. No data official or otherwise would support this claim. Bangalore is a major city, but please do try to portray it bigger than it actually is.

City Planning

I feel that Bangalore's infrastructual problems should also be mentioned under City Planning - Probably just a sentence saying that Bangalore's city planning is poor. (Being a Bangalorean myself, I feel that shoddy planning has been done, and this is the reason why Bangalore is now losing its glitter.) Let's atleast mention a sentence about infra problems under city planning.

Feel free to add facts. I think Bangalore was never planned as a city of this magnitude. It was more or less a place of retreat. That's why, now they're finding it difficult to manage the growth. -- Sundar (talk · contribs) June 29, 2005 04:59 (UTC)

Astroturfing in external links (esp. myaarzoo.com)

Of late, the external links section has become a cesspool of astroturfing links. To the author of the mgroad blog, I think the pictures are nice, but it is just one of the thousands of personal image galleries around, I see no reason why it should be included in an article about Bangalore. Please discuss it here before you go and add it again. Also it wouldnt hurt to log in. Jbritto

Please stop vandalizing the page with blatant advertising for myaarzoo.com. Do you realize you are only spoiling the credibility of your site? Especially after you removed the entry for glogblog.com? Jbritto

Source of Language Statistics?

What is the source for the percentage of people? To me, it looks like the numbers have been arbitrarily changed by a few people to what suits them. Case in point: The edit 02:39, 5 August 2005 by 212.151.200.37 switched the percentages of people speaking Tamil and Telugu, without any explanation! Can someone cite a correct source and use those numbers here please? Thanks. Jbritto

Push to FA

Comeon Bangloreans, push your city towards Featured status! See Wikipedia:Wikiproject Indian cities. =Nichalp «Talk»= 07:43, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

I think its time Bangalore becomes a FA. With Nichalp involved, it should happen sooner than you can expand FAC. :-D PamriTalk 17:14, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Something is wrong with the population density number

Dividing the population in the info box by the area stated gives a density of over 16,500 rather than below 3,000 as listed. CalJW 00:03, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Officially Bengaluru

Someone needs to fix it. It's officialy Bengaluru now. http://www.centralchronicle.com/20051226/2612305.htm

No, it's not! The article says the name will come into effect November 1, 2006. AreJay 02:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

native name

Hi

Please wait till the name of Bangalore is officially changed - later this year. The native_name field in the infobox refers to the name as documented in government gazettes, which is Bangalore as of today both in Karnataka and Indian government gazattes. Once the name is official, the head title can change. Till then, it would be proper to refer to any other names only in the actual text of article.

Pizzadeliveryboy 17:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Well,somebody had written that there is a significant population of minorities in bangalore.i beg to differ.please dont think i am communal or something.the number of muslims in bangalore is less compared to other parts of the state like gulbarga,coastal karnataka.i agree there is a population,but it exists in small groups in areas like tilaknagar,yarabnagar,cox town,commercail street,near south end.their areas are very small and relatively peaceful sompared to the muslim areas of mumbai. as far as christians are concerned,most of them are converts from tamil nadu,kerala who came here primarily as labourers and now have settled in slums areas in shivajinagar,hosur road,kengeri. so as i said,it isnt that significant as it is in case of hyderabad or mumbai.--Jayanthv86 19:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anyone was comparing the proportion of minorities in Bangalore to those of Hyderabad or Mumbai. All that statement did was to assert that the city did have a significant proportion of minorities, which should come as no surprise anyway, given the population of the city. AreJay 21:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
well are jay,i have vsisted many cities and in a cosmopolitan city like bangalore,the evidence of large populace of minorites is not visible and atleast not evident in the culture and potrayal of the city.the areas i have listed are the only significant areas where minorities live,and those areas are very small and underdeveloped.and i am sorry you are misunderstood,my statement never asserts or is trying to assert that minority population is large in Bangalore.--Jayanthv86 19:38, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

veracity of edits

Can anyone please verify jayanthv's edits?

Pizzadeliveryboy 19:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Language spoken

On second thoughts, jayanthv86's addition of a Language Spoken clause in the infobox is a good idea. Any idea how this is done?

Pizzadeliveryboy 19:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Language was one of the items in the old infobox that existed over a year ago. That was ultimately removed because of the vagueries associated with the term, especially given Bangalore's cosmopolitan character and the cosmopolitan character of some of the other Indian cities. Not to mention the fact that in India, states are divided linguistically, not cities, so the term "Language of Bangalore" would really have no meaning.
AreJay 21:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

edit reverses

re. the edit reverses in Bangalore:

'Bangalore has significant proportions of groups that would otherwise be considered minorities in India, including Muslims, Christians and Anglo-Indians.'

The section in bold should go since it kind of sounds parochial and abrasive. I think it kind of suggests that minorities need to continuously reminded that they are indeed minorities. just mentioning that specific communities also live in BLR should be enough.

The rest can remain. Please enlighten.

Pizzadeliveryboy 01:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

List getting longer

Adding every college/school in BLR will only make the section unreadable and unweildly after some time.

It would be a better idea to stick to some really well known (internationally, if possible) institutes like IISc in the article, and give a link to a seperate article on a list of colleges.

Any thoughts???!!!

Pizzadeliveryboy 16:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

This also holds true for the list of companies and (until recently) the list of religious festivals...we need to stick with just 3 or 4 entries in each list. There's a difference between trying to accentuate a point and just overloading an idea with bajillion entries in each list. AreJay 16:55, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Who decides which of the names to top the list and which ones to be ommitted and referred in the specific article?????

Pizzadeliveryboy 17:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know? Perhaps someone who knows enough about the topic can provide the names of two or three of the most common/popular entries associated with that list. I'm kinda against "lists" per se given the nature of Wikipedia — people are going to keep coming and adding entries to the list and it just becomes hard to manage. AreJay 03:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
well are jay,i have vsisted many cities and in a cosmopolitan city like bangalore,the evidence of large populace of minorites is not visible and atleast not evident in the culture and potrayal of the city.the areas i have listed are the only significant areas where minorities live,and those areas are very small and underdeveloped.and i am sorry you are misunderstood,my statement never asserts or is trying to assert that minority population is large in Bangalore.--Jayanthv86 19:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Jayanthv86 — according to Wikipedia, the definition of "cosmopolitan" is "cosmopolitan describes something influenced by many cultures from around the world". By definition therefore, does it not imply, if we are to refer to Bangalore as a cosmopolitan city, that the culture of the city is characterized by various strains of cultures including that of the majority culture? If the presence of other cultures in Bangalore is not evident, as you say, is the city cosmopolitan at all? Any thoughts? AreJay 03:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
The guidelines at Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian cities are a good place to follow, if you have any doubts about style/content. --PamriTalk 05:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes,i agree with AreJay that the lists have gotten longer,and moreover the school's name was added by anon ip's.So,i have deleted it.Moreover i am a user against advertisements(see my user page).Mention of technical colleges is good.But mention of secondary schools and PU colleges will make this a mess.Hence,i have removed all school names.i repeat:No advertisements in Wikipedia.--Jayanthv86 18:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

City History

...silver coins of Roman emperors Augustus, Tiberius and Claudius have been excavated in and around present-day Bangalore, but have not revealed much about its contemporaneous inhabitants.

Can the person who added this clarify its validity and / or cite the source? I am not a historian, but for some reason doubt the validity of the statement. Are we saying there was contact between Ancient Rome and India? AreJay 17:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


Yes please cite the source,or else you can find me with a spade digging the aldready battered Bangalore roads searching for rare ancient coins.--Jayanthv86 18:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

That's hilarious! :-) AreJay 19:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Ghettoization

A recent trend in the urban development of Bangalore is the ghettoization of the city's IT and knowledge economy workforce into self-contained gated communities. Moreover, a bulk of the IT and knowledge economy workers are not domiciled within the state of Karnataka. This has led to a general perception in state level political circles (who derive a bulk of their political power from rural Karnataka) that Bangalore is not a potential vote block during elections, and hence infrastructure development activities within the city do not carry high political weight.

Can someone who understand what this paragraph was intended to convey reword it so that it makes sense? I can't seem to understand what the idea behind the paragraph is. What is a "self-contained gated community"?? AreJay 14:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

City Taxi numbers

Would it amount to advertising if we gave the citi taxi phone numbers ? With so many unconnected citi taxi operators, (each mostly operating in one area of Bangalore) it may be worthwhile to give some numbers but then, the list may grow too long. Hmm... Wikicheng 05:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Nikkul's images

I have been feeling for sometime that this article has been inundated with images, most of which have at best a tenuous relationship with the section they have been added to. For example, I can't understand what the Public Utility building image is doing in the "Civic Administration" section. The image also bleeds into the next section ("Economy"). What does the Public Utility building have to do with Civic Administration?

The "Economy" section looks even worse, filled as it is with gawdy and ungainly images of objects that look like extracts from Star Treck. Of the three images in the section, two have nothing to do with the content described in the section, only the Infosys image, perhaps has any relation to the section. While I applaud Nikkul's interest in adding quality images to articles, these images have got to go from this article. Many of these buildings, I'm sure, are architectural delights to those interested in that sort of thing, but I don't think they fairly represent the Bangalore that I know. The negative impact they are having on page formatting is another issue altogether. I am therefore going to go ahead and delete them. AreJay (talk) 06:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


" BANGALORE: The biggest commercial property project in the city centre will be ready in the next few months. The landmark UB City, coming up on some 13 acres of land on Vittal Mallya Road, will add 1 million sqft of high-end commercial, retail and service apartment space. "[1]

  • The UB City image shows an upcoming very very important zone in Bangalore. It is literally downtown Bangalore. That image shows the city's new skyline. It is a very important commercial zone. And the fact that it is right next to Cubbon Park makes it all the more important.
  • The Whitefield image shows an area of Bangalore that is famous for the tech firms and for the way Bangalores economy has boomed in the past few years. Few years ago, Bangalore just like Whitefield was a small village. Today, both are bustling because of their economic importance.
  • "extracts from Star Treck."??? Im sorry to let you know that these are actual buildings...in Bangalore. I mean its not like the pics are fake. They show the different industries and the different areas of economic importance in Bangalore.
  • The Bangalore Water Supply and Sewerage Board (BWSSB) was constituted in 1968 to supply water to the city and to provide for the disposal of sewage. The Karnataka Electricity Board (KEB) was formed in 1957. Believe it or not, public utilities are owned and administered by the government. They are not private entities

Please do not revert without consensus Thanks Cheers Nikkul (talk) 10:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Nikkul, with respect, please don't tell me what I can or cannot do. One of Wikipedia's cardinal rules is "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." I have been active on the Bangalore article for years and was the main contributor that led to Bangalore's successful FA, so I can tell you I know a thing or two about this city. Below are my responses to your points:
  • UB City: First, this project is "upcoming". Meaning it's not even in play as yet. Second, UB City is a commercial shopping center. What does have to do with the "Economy" of the city? People in all cities shop. UB City is hardly reflective of the consumer patterns of the people of the city at large (for multiple reasons, not the least of which is the fact that the shopping center hasn't even opened yet). Thirdly, " And the fact that it is right next to Cubbon Park makes it all the more important"....umm, care to indulge me a little more on your logic here? What if I ran a taco stand next to Cubbon Park? Will you also include me in the "Economy" section of this article?
  • A few years ago Whitefield was not a "small image" as you believe. If anything, it was a sattelite town of the city and had been for years. And the lesser said about your comment that Bangalore was a small village a few years ago the better. Regardless, the Economy section has no discussion about this (rightly so) so as I said before, any link that you are trying to make between the Economy section and this image is tenuous.
  • "They show the different industries"...no they don't. One apparently shows a shopping mall. The other two are pictures of buildings servicing the same industry — IT. There is more to Bangalore than just IT (The city has a huge PSU base...over 42% of all Central PSUs in South India are in Bangalore. HQ for ISRO, HAL, NAL, etc)
  • Umm, I don't think you realize this but the Public Utilities building is a shopping center, among other things. It has absolutely nothing to do with the KEB or BWSSB. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. In light of these facts, I'm removing these images.
  • Finally, please stop removing cited material about Bangalore's population and relacing it with link from an internal Wiki source. If you have a valid reason for why you're removing it, bring it up, otherwise please stop doing it. AreJay (talk) 17:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
  • UB City is already operational and is still in construction (believe me its possible). UB City is not just a commerial shopping area; it houses the headquarters to large groups and has office space for other companies.
  • What does retail have to do with economy? Please! It has everything to do with economy. Guess how the average person spends his money- through retail! Retail and commerce isa drivingforcein the economy. And UB City also houses commercial offices, banks, high-end retail stores, a five star hotel, serviced apartments, restaurants, food courts.
  • People in all cities shop? Lol, People in all cities do IT work, and other things that people in Bangalore do. Bangalore is not the only place intheworld in which things get done. Banglaore has similar economy as other cities.
  • Whitefield is an important hub for IT services. Read this from the whitefield, india page: Whitefield was a small village which was a retirement colony for Anglo-Indians. It has since become a major hub for the Indian technology industry. The Export Promotion Industrial Park (EPIP) at Whitefield of one of the country's first information technology parks - International Tech Park, Bangalore (ITPB) which houses offices of many IT and ITES companies. The EPIP zone also has offices of other IT and R&D giants like Symbian (Symbian India Ltd.), GE (John F. Welch Technology Center), Wipro- GE Medical Systems, iGate Global Solutions, Sapient_(company), Manhattan Associates, SAP AG, Perot Systems, Dell, IBM, Intel and Oracle,TATA Elxsi,Geometric Software. An Intel Xeon processor code named Whitefield was being developed (but was scrapped later) in Intel's ITPB campus (Intel has since moved its campus from ITPB).
  • Since I do not know about the Public Utilties Building, I will not add it intill more research is done. Wikipedia states that when there is a dispute, that we resolve it on the talk page witha consensus. Like you, I have been a major contributor to the Bangalore site as well as other india sites. I am not inferior to you. So let us waitand see what others have to say. Please do not revert the images till there is concensus. Thanks. Nikkul (talk) 21:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

You just completely missed the point. The scope of my discussion wasn't about the intricasies of retail in the economy of a state or city, but rather over the relevence of your images in the various sections. You are dead wrong on this Whitefield business. Firstly, there is no mention of Whitefield in the section or article, so where is the relevence. Second, you can't self reference Wikipedia articles (see Wikipedia:Reliable source examples). I can go to the Whitefield article and write absolutely what I please..where's the verifiability? It was not a village back then and neither is it now.

You also didn't answer my question about why the UB City image is inlcuded in the Economy section. For all this talk about UB City, there is but a 1 sentence mention of it in the section..something about a high-end commercial zone. What is the relevence of a high-end commercial zone over revenue from large-scale heavy industry manufacturing in Bangalore?

Bangalore's retail market value is approximately 33,727.50 crore (US$5.3 billion)[2]..what is UB City's contribution to this??? Contribtuion of Heavy Industries of HAL, BEL and ITI alone amounts to 61,325 crore (US$9.6 billion) [3] [4] [5] and there are 14 other Heavy Industry PSUs in Bangalore I've not even mentioned! Compared to them this so called "high-end commerce" is but a drop in the pond!

I never inferred that you were "inferior" to me or anyone. I am more than aware of the issues you are having with images on the India article and other articles. I do not say that this is all your fault, however, this obsession with adding images unrelated or insignificant to the overall theme or section has got to stop. As for your other imgaes, the pictures of the auto and the Bull Temple are bleeding into the other sections.

For all your apparent liking for "building consensus", let me ask you this question — did you build consensus when you added these random images to the article?? I don't think so. So let's play the game the way you want it played...I'm going to remove these images, if you'd like them added, please start a section in the talk page and build consensus.

Also, for the last time, stop removing content that has clearly been cited (ie. the size of Bangalore's population). AreJay (talk) 00:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


Comments:I would like provide my 2 cents in this discussion. First of all, there should not be any dispute over the size of Bangalore's population. The article List of most populous cities in India still doesn't have valid and current references, and the only reference it has is Census of India website, which corresponds to year 2001 census data, that is, 7 years older one. On the other hand, World-Gazetteer.com has more up-to-date statistics on this. However, the given citation still ranks Bangalore at number 3, so we can still mention it this way and leave it with the given citation.

...,making it the third most populous city of India,[2]

Regarding images, IMO the UB city image is highly undue to this article. Personally I feel, the statement made by Nikkul above, "The UB City image shows an upcoming very very important zone in Bangalore" is exaggerated, and there are way too many very very important zones in Bangalore compared to the upcoming UB City. Is it (going to be) much important than Majestic? KR Market? MG Road? Airport Road? Corporation Circle (Hudson Circle)? At this point of time, I would say it just a speculation.

Some of the other images are really dull are not having enough relevant information in it. For example, the hesaragatta lake image, the book stand image etc just do not have information in them. What does a caption like Hundreds of magazines can be found in Bangalore's newstands this mean? Every news-stand in every city will typically have hundreds of magazines. Isn't it? Few months back, the article had Image:Vijaya-karnataka.jpg image, and it was well-captioned (Vijaya Karnataka, the largest circulating Kannada newspaper in Bangalore) and was explained in that section as well. If there is no objection, I would like to bring this image back to the article.

This article is one of the best articles, and will need to have best possible images, both in terms of quality of the image, and the relevance of it in the article. It would be better to have images of KSRTC / BMTC Bus stand (also called Kempegowda Bus Terminal), Railway Station (either the one in Majestic or the one in Cantonment), Bangalore Doordarshan TV station / Akashavani Radion station. Thanks - KNM Talk 02:12, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


I'm sorry, AreJay, there is no rule on wikipedia that says that every edit must be discussed on the talk page. These images have been there for a long time and no one has had a problem with them. There is a rule that if there is a dispute, that the dispute should be sorted out through a consensus. If you dont like them, then you have to build a consensus to get rid of them.

These images have been around from 07:19, 23 October 2007 203.91.209.250. Thats 4 months. Many people have edited the page since then and No one else has had a problem with the images. If you have a problem with them, you have to talk it out here. I agree that the newstand image doesnt contribute much, but the newspaper image is copyrighted.
About the population; the info arejay is adding is wrong. Bangalore is NO WAY the second most populous city in India. Unless Mumbai or Delhi are wiped of the map, Bangalore is going to stay 3rd populous. Just look at the source! 

Industries in UB City include Brewery, Alcoholic Beverage, Airline, Chemicals & Fertilizers, Information Technology, Pharmaceuticals And for your info, heavy industries like hal do not have anything to do with retail. retail is like stores,and unless HAL has a store where you can go and buy an airplane, it doesnt constitute retail. I think you should read what economy is before replying. Thanks Nikkul (talk) 04:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

And I think you should read and understand what I've written before replying. Your contention was that this high-end retail was "very very important" and therefore the image of UB City was justified. I just showed you that PSUs, which have nothing to do with the high-end commerce that you're talking about, far outweigh revenue from any type of retail, high-end or otherwise. So if any image of Bangalore needs to be added in the economy section, it should be that of HAL, ITI, BHEL, BEL, etc and not some silly UB City. That was my point. How is the info I've added about the cities "wrong"? I've cited the same source that Wikipedia India articles have been using for ages. Please review the source before commenting. As for this issue about discussing, I asked that you build consensus around the images, simply because you seemed to want everything discussed before edited..."contraversial edits", as you termed them in your edit summary. How do you know that no one had a problem with your images? You didn't discuss when you added them, in much the same way that I didn't discuss when I deleted them. Seems perfectly fair to me, you can't play the game both ways; please take a stance on the matter and stay with it. AreJay (talk) 15:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

You telling me that Bangalore is the second largest city in India is wrong. According to your argument, if I had a source, I could say Bangalore is in pakistan. Theres a difference between having a source and having correct information. I have used the same source u used and I have shown through the source that bangalore is the 3rd largest, not 2nd.

Second of all, you fail to recognize the importance of ub city as an economic zone in downtown bangalore. Perhaps its time you take a trip to Bangalore soon, cuz you obviously havent been there recently. And I know no one had a problem with the images because the images have been there for months and hundreds of people have edited the article, but not one has changed the image. That says something. If you have a problem with it, please discuss it before changing it. This is wikipedia, there are rules. Nikkul (talk) 01:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


What rubbish! Nikkul I didn't know that you had all of a sudden become my travel advisor to recommend tourist destinations to me. I've presented financial data to show why images from PSUs should be included in the economy section, while you've just been harping on about UB City without any source or citation to prove it's importance over PSUs...and the reason for that is because there are no such sources. Let me break it down very simply to you, since you clearly have trouble understanding my point...

1) Just 4 of the 17 PSUs in Bangalore (HMT, HAL, ITI, BEL) contribute 95,897 crore (US$15 billion) to Bangalore's economy

2) The entire retail market in Bangalore is worth only 33,727.50 crore (US$5.3 billion).

3) Bangalore's entire contribution to IT is 47,590.62 crore (US$7.4 billion).

Therefore, not only are the PSUs the largest segment in Bangalore's economy, just those 4 PSUs contribute more to Bangalore's economy than the entire revenue from retail + Information Technology! This is because Bangalore was, is, and has always been a big PSU base.

Here's why I bring this up..there are two images in the Economy section. Both are related to IT. If this doesn't qualify for UNDUE, I don't know what does (remember Wikipedia's Summary style guidelines). One of them (and I don't care which one) needs to go to make way for a balanced representation. The image that I had added this afternoon (SU-30MKI India.jpg) is a manufactured product of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which is a big PSU in Bangalore. Additionally, it is a public domain image and is free of any sort of copyright (as opposed to both your images which are CC images). Instead of purile reverts of my edits, I challenge you to tell me (since clearly, you seem to object to it) why this image, representing a product manufactured by a PSU in Bangalore should be supressed over two images of IT buildings whose companies' revenues total to only a fraction of Bangalore's PSU revenue. And please, spare me your "please discuss it" lecture, as you very clearly bend and pick and choose which rules you want to use and when. I haven't rv'ed your edits right now but I'd like you to come here and address my discussion above. AreJay (talk) 03:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


First of all, Bangalore is known around the world for its IT. Everyone who knows about Bangalore, knows it because of the IT revolution that Bangalore stands for. If you think people who know about Bangalore around the world know about it because of HAL or ISRO, you're totally wrong. Also, UB city is the central business district of Bangalore- it has office blocks for companies and is already changing Bangalore's skyline. It has offices for Brewery, Alcoholic Beverage, Airline, Chemicals & Fertilizers, Information Technology, Pharmaceuticals. I feel that you seriously do not know Bangalore and especially the economy if you would like to eliminate an image showing IT. Anyway, hundreds of people have edited the bangalore page since the images were put on, but none of them removed it or changed it. Hence, youre the only one who has a problem with it. Nikkul (talk) 08:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Umm, thanks...for your...valuable insight???? I mean I've just showed, not once or twice, but thirce that revenue differential between IT and PSUs is dramatically huge and all you can offer in response is a (badly written) character analysis of myself. You are filibustering this article, and this will not continue. Let me speak plainly — either you come up with an explaination on why PSUs shouldn't be included vs IT and back your hypothesis with financial facts (as opposed to wild conjucture as you have above) or I am going to go ahead and replace the first IT image that I choose to replace. At least one other editor has objected the status quo in terms of images in the article. Your IT images are UNDUE and will be replaced. If you want an edit war, you'll get one. AreJay (talk) 13:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
A little busy, I will get back to you soon. Nikkul (talk) 06:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


An IT image in the economy section is needed because:

Right off the bat, another classic example of you not doing your homework. I never suggested that an IT image was not needed. I said there are two IT images in the Economy section — one of them needs to go. Go back and read my reply before jumping to conclusions AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The images in the econ section show different hubs of economic activity in bangalore. Iflex is in the banking sector, Infosys is in the it sector, and ub city is in the retail sector. Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Joke of the century. Iflex is an IT company that provides IT solutions to the banking industry. It isn't in the "banking sector", it is in the IT sector. So, no, you can't get off of the WP:UNDUE rap through clever semantics. AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • India has emerged as a hub for IT and BPO, and Bangalore is the main center for Info Technology in India
Yes, it has. I have bachelors and masters degrees in IT and I work as an IT auditor...I am more than aware of the state of the industry that I work in, thank you very much. AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Wow! No way! a bachelors AND a masters in IT??? WHOA! You are my new god! That makes your arguement so much more credible! Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, if I am your new God, you should be willing to readily accept it without question. What was my "argument"??? You made a statement and I said that I was aware of it. I wasn't arguing with it. Now..apprently...you have a problem with what I said, ergo you have a problem..with..what..you..said?? Self-contradiction is dangerous. Hope that new god thing works out for you. AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Not having an IT image would be UNDUE
Just like not having an image of a PSU would be UNDUE. See my comments above. AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
PSU's are not as important as IT, and IT companies make more money and contribute more than PSU's. Please take your sources, convert them into dollars, and compare them with the figures I listed for IT companies. Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
For the umpteenth time...this is your opinion. I've cited my sources and provided links, not once, but thrice. And if you can't be bothered to go read them, I'm not going to sit around spoonfeeding you. AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • An IT image has been on the Bangalore page for the last 3 years, a PSU image has never been on the page [6]
So what?? Just because there was undue bias towards a certain area for three years, does that make it right?? And anyway, as usual you continue to be wrong. I couldn't be bothered to go all the way back to 3 years, but here's an archive of an HAL image present in the article as recent as June 2007. [7]}} AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
If the image has been there for 3 years, that means you need to establish concensus Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Wow. Do you ever read what I write?? I said there was an image of HAL as recent as June 2007. Clearly, that wasn't three years ago. I have to establish consensus when there are questions on an article's content. I do NOT have to establish content when something is in violation of WP:UNDUE...UNDUE is official Wikipedia policy, it isn't a guideline. And if something is in violation of it, it needs to go.AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Thousands of people have edited the page since the infosys image was added, but no one has had a problem with it besides user:Arejay
That's your opinion. How do you know? Did you conduct a pulse survey? Just because someone doesn't reply doesn't mean they don't have a problem. Please present solid, quantifiable facts..not POV. AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
No, that is not my opinion, that is straight up fact. People have the ability to edit all of the page,and if they dont edit out the image, it means they dont have a problem with it. its not that complicated of logic Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Blah, blah..there's nothing "factual" about it my friend. You are making judgement call on something and that makes it your opinion.AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • No one knows Bangalore for HAL or ISRO
Again your opinion. Wake up and smell the coffee. Lockheed Martin and Boeing have been wooing HAL for ages to sell their aircraft [8] [9] [10] [11][12]. If you haven't heard of it, that's your problem. Not anyone elsesAreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Lockheed Martin and Boeing have also made deals with infosys[3] [4] whats your point? Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You said no one knows Bangalore for HAL. I just showed that it did, through some valid citations. That was my point. Simple enough for you?? AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • People all over the world who know about Bangalore know about it because it's an IT hub
Again. Your opinion. If you can't quantify this with emperical data, no one will buy this POV. AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
[5][6]

[7][8][9][10][11]POV? Please! I could provide another 100 sites that say that Bangalore is known for its IT

Wow. I said quatify your opinion with emperical data. Not send me newspaper clippings. AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Bangalore is know as the Silicon Valley of India not because of HAL
  • As headquarters to many of the global SEI-CMM Level 5 Companies, Bangalore's place in the global IT map is prominent.
  • There are more than two paragraphs about IT in the economy section
  • There are only two sentences about heavy industry!
Ugh, so what???? How is this proof that IT > PSUs? I mean from what angle does this present itself to be a logical argument??? AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
It has to do with this thing called relevance Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Well then that immediately bats you out of the game, seeing as how "irrelevence" has been the central theme of your so-called "argument" thus far. AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Bangalore contributed 33% of India's Rs. 144,214 crore (US$ 32 billion) IT exports in 2006-07
Yes, I already used this number to demonstrate how this $10.56 million (32m * 0.33) is a paltry number compared to the revenue from just 4 of the 17 PSUs in Bangalore. But then, I wouldn't have to point this out..again..if you had read my reply AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Um from what I investigated, your numbers are terribly wrong. Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Please! My numbers from NASSCOM, India's leading IT strategy group and from the Department of Public Enterprise, a Government of India undertaking which manages PSUs nationally. AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Your Source does not even list the word Bangalore in it! The location is listed as New Delhi
Delhi or Dacascus. So what? ITI is headquartered in Doorvaninagar, Bangalore [13]. During year end close of financial books, all the accounts of sub-entities roll up to the accounts of the parent entity, which is located in Bangalore...this therefore counts as Bangalore revenue. AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
If Bangalore isnt mentioned in your source, then how can you say it relates to Bangalore. Youre arguments are totally rediculious! Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it is "rediculous" that I've been sending you a link to this website and that just be clicking on the "Corporate Profile" link you would have seen that the HQ is in Bangalore, but I guess that's just "rediculous" for me to ask you to do that. AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • IT Exports account for 35% of the total exports from India
So what? 60% of the people working in India are agrarian workers. By your logic, we will have to delete all the economy images and add photos of farmers. Please consider the scope of your argument AreJay (talk)
You dont understand anything. Youre blind to even trying to understand someone elses point of view. You just keep deriding anything anyone else has to say. I am tired of hearing your excuses! There is no point of even trying to respond to you because rather than tryingto understand, you just insult others and make excuses for why you think you should have your way Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh but I do. You don't want to understand my point because I've disproved your so-called theories every single time, but yet you go on some tirade or the other and try to draw attention away from the issue at hand. Tired of hearing my "excuses". Please! AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
This is supposed to be a reasoning for something? Did you even read the caveat on List of Indian companies that said "Please note that the list is highly incomplete and does not have every company of all sizes"?? And anyway, how is this verifiable?? I've mentioned before that you can't use Wikipedia articles as the basis for your claims. See Wikipedia:Reliable source examples. AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
If you feel that the biggest companies in bangalore are not it companies, please do show me which ones and how much they make because from what I see, PSU companies make a fraction of IT companies. Butif you feel otherwise, do back it up. Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Go back and see all the links, with converted amounts posted above. I'm not going to regurgitate them again. I've shown revenue figures of how the PSU sector in Bangalore outweighs the IT sector manyfold. You'll have to go back and look at the data that I've provided..I'm not going to do that work for you. AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Financials Heavy Industries mentioned in econ section: HAL has a revenue of $1.2 Billion HMT doesnt even have a working website. I doubt its revenue is more than $1 billion ISRO has a budget of .815 billion

Umm...what??? Can you please click on the links that I added? All PSUs are managed by the Department of Public Enterprise in India. I had added links to all their financials. How do you doubt it is more than $1 billion? Based on what? Your opinion?? Your opinion is impremissible. If your opinion is that it is not more than $1 billion, then it is my opinion that its revenue is $2 trillion. Where do our opinions leave us? And do you understand the difference between a budget and revenue? What was the purpose of dragging ISRO's budget into the discussion?? AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

OK well if you believe that HMT's revenue is more than 1 billion, please do show me because from what i have reseached, its not. Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
First, it was you that brought up HMT, not me. The companies that I brought up were ITI, HAL, BEL and BHEL. Then you claimed you "doubted" its revenue is more than $1 billion. Therefore I asked you what you mean that you "doubt" something's revenue is some amount. If HMT's revenue is less than $1 billion, what does that do to your argument? Are you under the illusion that all IT companies in Bangalore make more than $1 billion??? AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


IT companies Infosys has a revenue of 3.2 billions dollars Wipro has a revenue of 3.4 billion dollars TCS has a revenue of 4.3 Billion dollars Hmmm...which type makes more money???

What's your logic? You just compared three IT companies based on financial numbers to your opinion of how much some PSUs make. Do you think this argument of yours has any sort of logic? AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Well based on my EVIDENCE, Infosys makes 3.2 billion while HAL makes 1.2 billion...now who makes more???? hmmm...thats a tough one! Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
{{subst:comments|First, based on my EVIDENCE, I just showed how the PSU sector makes more money than the IT sector. It's just that you cant be bothered to go read my replies and I can't be bothered to supply them to you again. AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea where you got your numbers from.

Of course you don't. Because you obviously don't want to click on the links that I provide that show where those numbers came from. You don't have to sell me on this fact, I'm already well and truly sold. AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Your evidence said that 4 PSUs make 24 billion; I researched the revenue of one of them and foundthat it made 1.2 billion, how can the three others make 22.6 billion? Please do back that up with facts with each revenue of each company. Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
As stated above, I've already provided links..not once, but twice. I'm not going to do that again AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, you need to have a consensus and resolve the dispute before you can change the images. Please be civil. You will get blocked if you engage in an edit war. Nikkul (talk) 03:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

No my friend, contrary to your opinion, I don't need consensus. There are two images in the Economy section that represent one and only one industry. This is UNDUE and I don't need to "obtain consensus" to remove one of them. I am however giving you the benefit of the doubt to try and establish cause for why both those images should be kept. You are yet to do this, obviously.AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Im sorry, but as far as I know, when there is a dispute, it must be resolved through concensus on the talk page. Thats official wiki policy. So you might as well resolve it now instead of being uncivil and engaging in an edit war as you have already suggested Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The dispute exists because you choose to make it one. Wikipedia's policies are very clear. WP:UNDUE is policy - not a guideline. The undue bias of IT images in the Economy section violate WP:UNDUE...that's fairly clear cut. No dispute. It simply exists because you choose to prolong this fracars AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Wow, outdone yourself again I see Nikkul. You want me to be civil?? What would constitute "civility" in your book? Running around accusing other editors of making "uncivil edits"? Accusing other editors of lying? Then having the almighty gall to come back and say "just kidding" without so much as an apology? Would that be civil? Please keep your threats to yourself, I've been here long enough to know what the rules of engagement are.
Look, this is all getting quite cumbersome and meaningless. I've basically been repeatedly shooting down your so-called "points". If you can't produce valid, quatifiable arguments based on strong logic, I'm just going to go ahead and change whatever I please. I've given you the benefit of the doubt thus far and that obviously hasn't worked. I've replied to each of your points in red above. AreJay (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)


There are 1721 IT companies in Bangalore How many PSU's are there? Nikkul (talk) 04:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

And there are 1,345,243 roadside kadalekayi stalls in Bangalore. So yes, let us go ahead, delete all the images in the Economy section and replace them with images of roadside vendors. AreJay (talk) 04:48, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Great comeback! That really makes sense! Instead of acknowledging my facts, you have once again chosen to not listen, make excuses, and deride me once again. There is no point in talking to you because it falls on deaf ears. You are not interested in resolving a dispute. All you want to do is overlook my facts and make excuse. You are wasting my time. Nikkul (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Made about as much sense as someone saying that just because there are 1721 IT companies in Bangalore that it automatically qualifies IT images to be plastered all over the Economy section. Making "excuses". What a joke. I'm the one presenting numerical facts and you're going around opining on all kinds of issues that have nothing to do with why PSUs shouldn't be adequately represented. Overlook your facts?? It's hard to overlook something that hasnt been presented as yet. I'm not telepathic. If I've wasted your time, you've wasted my time doubly, with not just having to reply to you but to go around monitoring your Talk page reverts made by you for reasons known only to you. Since you can't seem to give me a valid reason, I'm going to research online to find a good PSU image and add it to the Economy section. This whole imbroglio is leading nowhere. You or anyone else that chooses to post are more than welcome to continue, but this discussion is over for me. AreJay (talk) 17:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The truth remains that it is your opinion that it is WP:Undue. Since this is a dispute, you must establish a consensus that concludes that this is indeed undue. Your shady reasons and your false sources do not help in your argument. Nikkul (talk) 02:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Clearly, that's not the truth. WP:Undue is policy; there is no grey area for so-called "disputes" as far as it is concerned. If you can't distinguish perception from reality, you can't be helped. AreJay (talk) 16:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Again, that is your point of view. It further shows that what you are adamant and unyielding. What you think is not always right. Nikkul (talk) 21:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

User:AreJay's Uncivil Edit

User:AreJay reverted an edit[14] by User:202.62.92.102 who left her name in the intro ("Rashmi Karanth"). AreJay has accused me of adding this comment in his edit summary. I would like to stress that accusing others without evidence is uncivil. I am not a user who will add the sentence:

"It is also called the Silicon city because of its many industries. Banglaore is a city full of lush greenery,kind people and malls,shops and markets. Its also modern and a great hangout for youngsters who like to party everyday.--202.62.92.102 (talk) 12:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)Rashmi Karanth "

Accusing me of writing this edit is an insult to my efforts to improve Wikipedia. It is also considered lying. I use my account when I edit and I also have an American IP address, hence this is proof that it was not I who did this, besides the fact that whoever did edit, left her name as attribution. I hope User:AreJay will not make such baseless accusations in the future. I am very offended that I was blamed for such vandalism Nikkul (talk) 19:38, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, just kidding! Cheers Nikkul (talk) 06:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Images & Lead

In re Nikkul's constant rv's to this article, it needs to be pointed out that there was a prolonged discussion above where I presented financial statements from the Department of Public Enterprise which indicated the importance of PSUs to Bangalore's economy. User:Nikkul has referred to these as "false sources"; clearly, this indicates that he is not willing to listen to reason, given the fact that the Department of Public Enterprise is the only body in India that is authorized to manage PSUs. Under the circumstances, there can be no "consensus" if one is not willing to look facts in the face. In addition the the above discussion, let me point out the following:

  • The iFlex image in the economy section is based out of Whitefield, which is a separate town by itself. While it is a sattelite town of Bangalore city and is part of Bangalore Urban district, it is not part of Bangalore city. it is If this image is relevent anywhere, it is in the Whitefield article; not in this one. map with distinction history of Whitefield
  • The UB City image - I am opposed this on account of WP:UNDUE; User:KNM has also raised his objection to it based on the same Wikipedia guideline. During the course of the discussion, no one but User:Nikkul has vehemently supported this image on account of it being a "very very important zone" in his opinion. Please refer to the extract below of WP:UNDUE (some text has been highlighted)

User:Nikkul's rv's without ryhme or reason are not constructive and are serving as a hinderence to people interested in improving the quality of the article. He has reverted the edits of multiple editors on many occasions stating "please obtain consensus" or "please discuss". Clearly, he has not familiarized himself with WP:CONSENSUS (extracts included):

I would also ask that he realize that it is Wikipedia's policy that editors be bold in making their edits. Disputed edits must be discussed; however, if an editor is going to dispute every single edit made by other users, the editor's good faith is questioned. Clearly, people have been editing and improving this article long before Nikkul appeared on the scene; he should stop acting like he owns this or any Wiki article. AreJay (talk) 15:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I emphatically support AreJay's comments and arguments on the issue. I have followed the revert wars for the last couple of weeks, but sadly, could never find the time to chime in. Nikkul is grossly mistaken with his understanding of Bangalore's geography and economics. Quickly, Whitefield is NOT bangalore and IT is NOT the be all and end all of Bangalore's economy. Bangalore was an economic hub BEFORE I.T happened and it is an economic hub now. More later. Sarvagnya 20:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Business

I observed recent reverts regarding, "one of the best places to do the business". As such, it appears to be only the opinion of CNNMoney.com so mentioning it as the fact may not be a good idea, but attributing it to the source explicitly is more suitable here; like "according to CNNMoney.com". If the same opinion is shared by multiple reliable sources, then it could be considered as a fact based on reliable sources. My 2 cents. - KNM Talk 16:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually quite happy not even having that text in there. The point of the lead is to summarize the sections below, so bringing in something specific like a CNNMoney.com article runs contrary to WP:LEAD. I only left it there and rephrased it yesterday because I wasn't sure what the intent of the editor who added it was...it looked like "one of the best places to do business" was being stated as if it were a fact and I therefore cleaned it up to at least appear like it was someone's opinion. However, I am more than happy not even having that sentence in there since it is a media outlet's POV. AreJay (talk) 17:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Images for Economy section

All, over the last few days the conflict on which images should be used in Economy section of this article. Here by I am starting a discussion thread, for building the consensus. I request all the editors especially the contributors to this article, to provide their opinions, suggestions and comments. Also, while this discussion is in progress, let us avoid the revert war that has been going on for sometime. For this reason, only for now, I will be removing all the images from this section. I am also going to provide my proposal on the images to be used, and similarly would be interested in seeing other proposals with supporting comments.

  • First of all, there is a need for consensus on how many images to be used. Keeping all other sections in mind, it looks highly inconsistent using more than 2 images in any of the sections. For this reason, I propose we use only 2 images in this section.
  • I propose the image of Image:Bangalore_UtilityBuilding.jpg and an image of ITPL or a group of IT companies or an image from Bangalore IT.COM event. The idea is to have a generic image instead of an image specific to a company like Infosys or Iflex. While Software exports is the major contributor for the city's (and there by its state's and nation's) present economical growth, we will also need to consider other economical hubs, an important one being the public utility building. - KNM Talk 20:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Small update: Found another image of utility building: Image:Bangalore_Skyscraper.jpg. However, this one is not as much clear as the one mentioned above, as the earlier one is having higher resolution and a better view, IMO. - KNM Talk 20:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Let us put the different images here and do a sort of poll to bring this issue to an end. What better way to bring about agreement.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)



The UB City image shows an upcoming very very important zone in Bangalore. It is literally downtown Bangalore. UB City is already operational. UB City is not just a commerial shopping area; it houses the headquarters to large groups and has office space for other companies. And UB City also houses commercial offices, banks, high-end retail stores, a five star hotel, serviced apartments, restaurants, food courts.

Whitefield is an important hub for IT services. Read this from the whitefield, india page: Whitefield was a small village which was a retirement colony for Anglo-Indians. It has since become a major hub for the Indian technology industry. The Export Promotion Industrial Park (EPIP) at Whitefield of one of the country's first information technology parks - International Tech Park, Bangalore (ITPB) which houses offices of many IT and ITES companies. The EPIP zone also has offices of other IT and R&D giants like Symbian (Symbian India Ltd.), GE (John F. Welch Technology Center), Wipro- GE Medical Systems, iGate Global Solutions, Sapient_(company), Manhattan Associates, SAP AG, Perot Systems, Dell, IBM, Intel and Oracle,TATA Elxsi,Geometric Software. An Intel Xeon processor code named Whitefield was being developed (but was scrapped later) in Intel's ITPB campus (Intel has since moved its campus from ITPB).

The Public Utility Building doesnt show economy. I dont think it should be used.

AreJay's Response

I agree with KNM's approach. I will present some of the images that I think would make sense below, but basically I think two images are sufficient for the Economy section. As far as what sectors to represent, certainly, I think IT should be represented. I think, however, that it is hard to include a "generic image" of IT (I'm not sure we currently have such an image in Commons either). For that reason, I think it's perfectly alright to include an image of the HQs of say, Infosys or Wipro.

As far as the "other sector" to represent, I don't know how valuable the Public Utility building is. From my understanding, the Public Utility building has a mish-mash of shops and officies — while it definitely is a landmark of Bangalore, I don't know if it is the first thing that springs to mind when we think of Bangalore's economy. I would ideally like to see a PSU represented since that has been the backbone that has driven Bangalore's growth immediately before and after independence (notwithstanding the recent growth of IT). Finding good PSU images is a problem though because public sector enterprise isn't exactly glamorous. As in the case of IT, it is hard to conceptualize PSU services into images — for this reason, I recommend the SU-30MKI India.jpg image or the PD image in PSLV that was developed by ISRO. This article has a nice synopsis of Bangalore's economy, not just related to the growth of PSUs and IT, but also private sector enterprise like MICO and WIDIA.

Additionally, I've been working offline on code that can randomize images on Wikipedia articles. For the time being, we can narrow down the search to two images, but if the code works as intended, we will be able to shortlist 5-10 images and ensure that at least two of them appear each time an article is refereshed. Thanks AreJay (talk) 22:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I like this idea of a rotation, if possible. And yes, we need to provide some diversity in the image selection for the economy section rather than sterotype Bangalore's image. I dont agree with the notion that the Sukhoi image is just an "airplane". It is about a century of technological advancements in Bangalore. The HAL was first commissioned under the guidance of Sir M.V and Sir Mirza Ismail, the then Diwan's of Mysore, working with the likes of JRD Tata. It has taken the minds of many brillian people to bring Bangalore to where it is today; the "tech capital of India". Eventually, these scientific advancements have progressed into developments in IT sector. But the knowledge pool originated from the scientific advancements of the 50's thru 80's and should be represented.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 22:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I concur with Dinesh. I think it is critical to fairly represent the diversity of Bangalore's economy, both from a historical and present point of view. I'm OK with using the image of the Sukhoi. It is India's flagship fighter aircraft and is a dual-threat fighter jet, along the lines of the F/A-18 Hornet. By many accounts, the SU-30MKI "Flanker" is the most powerful operational fighter jet used by the world's armed forces. And unlike the Jaguar or Mirage 2000, HAL manufactures the "Flanker" under a knowledge transfer agreement with Sukhoi — this is a matter of notability and pride, not just for Bangalore but for India.
In line with Sarvagnya's reasoning, I continue to strongly oppose any use of the UB city and Whitefield iFlex images in relation to the Economy section. AreJay (talk) 02:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps on rotation (in pairs): one image each representing IT (Bangalore's pride-Infosys?), Aerospace, Bio-tech?. Perhaps an image representing the construction boom which invariable is connected to the economy and happen to be sky scrapers? (I got the idea from an article on a Chinese city in a magazine). May I tentatively suggest that we include one image from the traditional economy, if available(commerce)? thanks.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 03:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Random Image Generator

Gentlemen — the prototype for the random image generator is ready. Please take a look at User:AreJay/rotation and provide your thoughts. Just FYI, I've loaded dummy images into the generator..these are not the images that I am proposing we use in the article. The image to the top right of the page will change every 14 minutes, while the image at the bottom right will change every 8 hours Both images rotate hourly. Obviously, these values can be tweaked as necessary. Thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks AreJay (talk) 02:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


There is already a image rotation in place on the india culture section. That seems to be working fine. I think we need to decide on decent images that show bangalore's economy. i really dont feel that an airplane will show bangalore's economy. A pic of HAL's site would make more sense. Nikkul (talk) 02:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I'm aware of its use in the India article — the logic of the one I developed is similar to the one in the India article and is structured to accomodate the relatively small number of images we're trying to shortlist. AreJay (talk) 03:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Nikkul's Suggestion

{{Bangalore Image Rotation|economy}}

I have made a rotation template for the bangalore economy. You can find the code,which uses parser functions, at template:bangalore image rotation. I suggest that we have one rotation of all the IT images like infosys and whitefield image and one rotation for the other sections like retail and PSU's. This seems better than a "random image generator". Since this code has been tried and has succeeded on the india culture section, this seems to be the optimal answer. Nikkul (talk) 02:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It's the exact same type of template that I'm using with Parser functions. The logic is essentially the same, while I call it a "random image generator", it's being called "rotation template" on the India article. Also, please do not make any more edits by way of inserting image or image template content into the Bangalore article until consensus is reached here. I have done the same and would like you to do so as well. Not doing so does disservice to KNM's constructive attempts at building consensus and solving the edit war. Thanks AreJay (talk) 03:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

User:AreJay's Edits

User:AreJay has been consistently adamant about his point of view. I have discussed his opinions with him above, and he has consistently derided my efforts and has passed sarcastic comments that do not help make his point any clearer. If he doesnt have his way, he has threatened me with an edit war.

AreJay would like to add an image of an airplane, which apparently shows Bangalore's economy. I would like to point out that the images that were on the Bangalore page have been there for a very long time. For this reason, and also because there is a difference of opinion on which images should go on the page, I asked AreJay to discuss the issue on the talk page. His "discussion" has often included sarcastic remarks and unreasonable claims.

User:AreJay feels that he does not need consensus and that he must have his way. If he doesnt have his way, he has said that he is ready for an edit war. I would like to point out that this attitude is not one that will help wikipedia and that being adamant does not help anyone.

User:AreJay has brought evidence that suggests that PSU's apparently contribute 24 billion dollars to Bangalore's economy. Now, when I read his references, some did not mention Bangalore at all, and instead mentioned New Delhi. And the total of the claimed revenues did not add up to 24 billion. Nikkul (talk) 21:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Look Nikkul stop harping on about this. I sent you a link that showed ITI to be headquartered in Bangalore, but you refuse to click on the link. If you have such doubts about the veracity of my sources, please ask any of the Bangalore-based editors on this talk page where ITI is headquartered. I have said (and provided links) a thousand times of financial statements from the Department of Public Enterprise, which manages India's PSUs. If they tell me the revenues add up to 24 billion, I believe them. DPE is part of the Govt. of India, and I have no reason to doubt their claims. They are a verifiable resource. You're claiming that I am adament, after I've provided sources all you did was personally attack me asking me to take a trip to Bangalore, etc. If I was sarcastic it was because you couldn't just stick to the editorial content and decided to get personal. I would like to point out that this attitude is not one that will help wikipedia and that being adamant does not help anyone. I'm glad you feel this way, because this is precisely the attitude you have been demonstrating right through this "discussion". In addition, you violated 3RR today and though I had every right to report you, I didn't. So drop this attitude and involve yourself in the discussion that User:KNM has started above. AreJay (talk) 22:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Public Utility Building

A common source of mystery, the Public Utility Building seems like it falls under the category of civic administration (public utilities). Others have suggested that this building is a center of commerce. What really goes on in this place? Who works there...the government or the private sector? Nikkul (talk) 08:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It houses retail shops, offices, etc. It is located on MG road which is an important retail and shopping area of the city. It is surrounded by Symphony theater, restraurants, shops and the like. The name "Public Utility" is misleading...here's a list of shops, offices, etc that are on the first few levels of the Public Utility building...though not verifiable, it should at least give you an idea of what kinds of business are housed there. [15] AreJay (talk) 13:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Would be nice to have a few more choices of images in the table below.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 17:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with AreJay regarding waiting for concensus. We should get more people to come in and vote, not just 4 or 5 of us. Perhaps a post on a frequently visited page would help to bring in more users.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Images poll

Based on the discussion initiated by User:KNM yesterday, I've taken the liberty of creating the table below for us to keep track of the support and opposition for various images being debated. Please add your name in the columns "Support" or "Oppose". I've taken the liberty of adding some names based on the discussion above; if this is not accurate, please feel free to add your name in the appropriate column. Please update the tally count after your vote. Thanks.

Image:Bangalore UtilityBuilding.jpg
PUB
Image:Bangalore India.jpg
Image:BangaloreInfosys.jpg
File:Downtown Bangalore.jpg
Image:Downtown Bangalore.jpg
Image:SU-30MKI India.jpg
File:Bangalore HAL.jpg
Image:Bangalore HAL.jpg
Adding a new image to the poll

To add a new image to the poll, please use the code below (making changes where appropriate) and insert it on the line that preceeds the text <!-- ** END OF TABLE ** -->

|-
|[[:Image:<!-- Insert Image name here -->]]
|| <!-- Insert image description here -->
|| <!-- Insert name of proposal sponsor -->
|| <!-- Insert users supporting image -->
|| <!-- Insert users opposing image -->

Image Description Proposed by Support Object Tally (Support/Object)
Bangalore UtilityBuilding.jpg Utility Building User:KNM User:Nikkul User:KNM
user:Dineshkannambadi
User:Indiandefender2
User:AreJay
3/2
Bangalore India.jpg iFlex building, Whitefield User:Nikkul User:Nikkul
User:Indiandefender2
User:AreJay
User:Dineshkannambadi
User:Sarvagnya
2/3
Image:BangaloreInfosys.jpg Infosys HQ User:Nikkul User:Nikkul
User:AreJay
User:Dineshkannambadi
User:Indiandefender2
User:KNM 4/1
Image:Downtown Bangalore.jpg UB City downtown User:Nikkul User:Nikkul
User:Indiandefender2
User:AreJay
User:KNM
User:Dineshkannambadi
User:Sarvagnya
2/4
Image:SU-30MKI India.jpg Sukhoi SU-30MKI Flanker User:AreJay User:AreJay
User:Dineshkannambadi
User:Sarvagnya
User:Nikkul
User:Indiandefender2
3/2
Image:Bangalore HAL.jpg HAL Airport User:AreJay User:AreJay User:Nikkul
User:Sarvagnya
User:Indiandefender2
1/3


Comments

  • The Whitefield picture shows an important economic zone in Bangalore. This is one of the main centers in Bangalore, and I think it deserves mention.
  • Infosys image has been there for years. It should def. stay because Infosys is a major contributor.
  • UB City is a major economic zone in Bangalore, headquarters of a huge brewery group. Industries in UB city include Brewery, Alcoholic Beverage, Airline, Chemicals & Fertilizers, Information Technology, Pharmaceuticals. This image shows Bangalore's traditional economy-- retail and commerce.
  • An image of an airplane doesnt show the economy of Bangalore! I do not see how this could ever make sense. There is no proof that this airplane was made by HAL and it was definitely not designed by HAL
  • A photgraph of a poster does that says "Welcome to Bangalore" does not mean anything! This image would be very irrelevant and subject to copyright since its a posterNikkul (talk) 19:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I've shared my thoughts on the first three bullet points, so I'll just stick with the last two:
    • HAL signed a knowledge sharing agreement with Sukhoi worth over $4 billion to indegenously manufacture SU-30MKIs in 2000[16]. HAL is the only manufacturer of fighter aircraft in India, it's a virtual monopoly and a well known fact...additionally the "MKI" in SU-30MKI stands for "Multi-role combat India"! No other country has a SU-30MKI...Russia has SU-30 and China SU-30MK/SU-27. That, in itself, is proof that the aircraft was manufactured by HAL.
    • Regarding using an aircraft to represent a company, I sort of agree, but it is the same difficultly you face when you use an image of a building (like the Infosys HQ) to represent the IT sector. Infosys isn't a construction company — it produces software and provides IT services, which are intangible. HAL's contribution — fighter aircraft — is available for all to see given that it is a tangible product. That was the reasoning behind that particular photo. AreJay (talk) 20:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I would just like to say that I agree with Nikkul for the most part, although I can see where AreJay is coming from. I believe that the pictures depict Bangalore's economy well, at least to a foreigner. Although I do concede that the PSU's have historically had a huge presence in Bangalore's economy, they no longer have as big a role and they do not represent the Bangalore that we know today. The Bangalore we know today is the "Silicon Valley of India," thus the picture of the Infosys campus works well to portray Bangalore. The picture of UB City also fits the section well as it also represents the new Bangalore her retail sector. UB city is located in the middle of what the closest thing to a business district is in Bangalore. It also represents the headquarters of the UB group which is one of the largest industries nationwide. The picture of the iflex picture also matches well with the article about Bangalore's economy. Again, although the PSU's have had a significant impact on Bangalore, I must say that the pictures AreJay has put up do not depict that at all, especially the one with the billboard saying "Welcome to Bangalore." That is the picture outside of HAL airport and does not well depict the PSU industry. The picture of the SU-30MKI also does not depict the PSU industry well. Perhaps if you had an aerial image of a plant, it might work well, but the current 3 pictures that Nikkul has put up in the Economy of Bangalore section work well. I must admit though that the picture of the Hesaraghatta Lake is rather bland and could be replaced with a picture of perhaps an aerial view of bangalore, showing her green zones? Knowing that neither one of you will back down prematurely, I thus propose that we keep the pictures of UB city and the Infosys headquarters in the section Bangalore's economy. I also suggest however that an aerial view of one of the PSU's in Bangalore be put up and that the picture of the Hesaraghatta Lake be replaced with something a little more scenic perhaps? This way both of you win. What do you guys say? Indiandefender2 (Indiandefender2) 19:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for your comments. I think you'll find from the financial data presented above that PSUs continue to play a huge role in Bangalore's economy, a larger role in fact, than does IT. I don't think the UB City image fits or represents Bangalore's economy in any way — it, if anything, represents a very miniscule segment of Bangalore's consumer market, which was my point all along — that the image was WP:UNDUE. Additionally, the iFlex image doesn't represent IT in Bangalore, simply because Whitefield isn't in Bangalore. I have no qualms with the IT industry, I'm actually an IT auditor and like nothing more than seeing my industry well represented. However, facts and financial data show that other industries are about as important to the economy of Bangalore as is IT. Unfortunately, PSUs just aren't "sexy" like IT is today, so monikers like "Silicon Valley of India" were never conjured up.
Incidently, let's wait for consensus to be built on this talk page before new or existing images are added to the Economy section. KNM has started a process for building consensus to which regular editors are contributing, and I'd like this process to be given a chance before any image-related edits are made to the section. Thanks AreJay (talk) 15:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That picture isnt in Whitefield. The address is

i-flex Park C/o Embassy Business Park C.V Raman Nagar Bangalore - 560 093 karnataka India [17]

Hence, that image is perfectly qualified for inclusion. Sorry for the mixup Nikkul (talk) 23:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)