|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Bar article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
|Bar has been listed as a level-4 vital article in Life. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as C-Class.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|Sources for development of this article may be located at|
Bar vs Pub
"In the UK 'bar' used to mean a wine bar, but now, 'Style Bars', trendy and generally high-quality drinking establishments are more common. However the main type of establishment selling alcohol for consumption on the premises is the public house or pub. Pubs are not usually referred to as bars, though the distinction is becoming blurred."
This doesn't seem entirely right, as i know for a fact that bars withing colleges are always refered to as "bars" even when they are otherwise indistinguishable from a pub. I would guess (although I don't know) that the same is the case with bars within other sors of institutions, such as hotels and resteraunts, with "pub" being a more specific term. Snowboardpunk
- That's accurate. A pub is a freestanding establishment while a 'bar' can either be a specific room within a pub, or a drink-selling establishment in something else such as a hotel, a conference centre, a students union etc. etc.Vortinax (talk) 07:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Surely a "pub" (public house) is a building in which alcoholic drinks are sold. A "bar" is either a room where alcoholic drinks are consumed (this may or may not be a standalone establishment), or an item of furniture from which such drinks are served. A pub may contain one or more bars. 220.127.116.11 23:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
What's the difference between a "topless bar" and a "titty bar"?
A strip club features nude dancing, and a price structure for interaction between customer and staff. If the bar is just a topless female bartender and/or waitstaff serving drinks, it becomes more self-explanatory. IMHO MMetro 20:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
This page used to say
- A bar is a business that sells alcoholic beverages ….
While this is basically true, it leaves out things like temperance bars and juice bars, making statements like, "A temperance bar is a bar that does not sell alcoholic beverages.", strictly speaking, false.
I have changed this to read
- A bar is a business that sells drinks, typically alcoholic beverages, ….
Is there a better way to say this? I can't think of one. Tugbug 20:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think how you left it is ok. HeffeQue 16:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I was hoping this article would expound a bit on the concept of a video bar. They seem to be popular in American gay bars, but more details and context would be helpful. -- Beland 02:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
uhm... "Often frequently populated by drunks the most well known of which is Luke menner who is often seen there before operating on the elderly and disabled. Menner, a sophomore at Indiana Wesleyan University, is also known to have many girlish tendencies. Many modern bars have recently added anti-Luke protocol to their company policies." Somehow I doubt that one can be backed up with any evidence. I'm going to go ahead and remove that. [[[User:Mad Gouki|Mad Gouki]] 04:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)]
Pub Task Force
Anyone interesting in working for a while on improving the pub articles? Sorting out the stubs. Organising the categories. Creating a Pub InfoBox. Drawing up some kind of notability guideline, and checking that pub articles are meeting the guidelines. Drawing up a Style guideline. Working on the editing of the main articles - Public house,List of public houses in the United Kingdom, Bar (establishment), etc. Considering how to integrate all the drinking establishments around the globe. Perhaps create a new parent article: Drinking establishment. I've started working on the pub articles, but I would really like to work with other people to bounce ideas and keep within consensus. Check in at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Beer#Pub_Task_Force, or respond here or drop a message on my talkheader. Cheers! 18:51, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
- I was hoping being on the "Pub Task Force" involved going to pubs. )c: - House of Scandal (talk) 18:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
The Fictional bars list was tagged for cleanup per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Beer/Guidelines#Lists and Wikipedia:Embedded list. Embedded lists within articles are discouraged. A list of fictional bars could stretch to several thousand entries, and would be of little value. I have removed it; however, someone may consider if they can make a paragraph of prose about fictional bars, which is also supported by reliable sources and is not original research. 18:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Etymolgy or origin of the name "bar"
The article mentions that the word "bar" is used as a synecdoche to refer to the "specialized" counter, but what is the origin of the name for said counter? It is something that I was curious about, but perhaps no one knows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miuq (talk • contribs) 18:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- Don't know for sure because I haven't checked any references, but it was probably because it "barred" people from intruding into private space behind the bar.Wahrmund (talk) 20:26, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
The word "bar" has it origins from the fact that cautious shopkeepers in the United States (Early Settlers) used to barricade their fragile goods against vandalism from brawling alcohol consumers . ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Varun m4 (talk • contribs) 17:14, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Many homes in the US have an area (usually located in a "finished" basement) that serves as a bar counter for entertaining guests. This sort of scenario doesn't seem to be discussed in this or any other related article... unless I have missed something. Is that correct? My name is Mercy11 (talk) 01:55, 5 July 2012 (UTC), and I approve this message.
- Information about home bars would have to be contained in a separate article. The title of this article is "Bar (establishment)", so that would exclude any content here about home bars. Wahrmund (talk) 19:02, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
- If what you are saying is that the title qualifier "establishment" in this article was especifically chosen to "exclude any content here about home bars", then I have to disagree with your rationale for excluding at-home bars from this article. The fact is that the title of this article needed a qualifier anyway in order to differentiate it from the "bar" (association of lawyers), the "bar" (the diacritical mark used in many laguages), the "bar" (the unit of pressure), and so on. Yes, another article could be started on the subject, but I see it equally acceptable to add a section in this article to describe at-home bars, especially since from a "purpose perspective" they have a lot in common with stuff discussed in this article - a nothing with the other "bar" articles. My name is Mercy11 (talk) 19:33, 5 July 2012 (UTC), and I approve this message.
Yes, I am saying that the qualifier "establishment" excludes any content about home bars. A "Bar (establishment)" is a business establishment that is open to the public and has a license to serve liquor granted by the government. None of that applies to home bars -- not open to the public, doesn't have a license -- and therefore such material is excluded from this article. Expanding its content to include home bars would completely vitiate the meaning of the title. If you want to write an article titled "At-home bars" (or some similar title), there is nothing to prevent your doing so. Wahrmund (talk) 20:25, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
- Ugh? No offense but you seem hung up on the establishment thing as if the world didn't know what that is. In fact, a bar establishment is a bar that is established,,, - somewhere, anywhere - and that includes the at-home variety as well. There's nothing in the word establishment to limit it to businesses, as you, no pun intended, are trying to establish. An establishment is anything that has been establsihed. End of discussion.
- All I am saying is many homes have established bar areas AND adding a short entry on at-home bars will make the article more complete.
- Yeah, you have pointed out TWO lonely differences between the business bar and the at-home bar, but that's about they all end. There are far more similarities than differences, and I am listing some for your benefit:
- "they both serves alcoholic drinks — beer, wine, liquor, and cocktails — for consumption on the premises. They both provide stools or chairs that are placed at tables or counters for their patrons. Hey, they both could even have entertainment on a stage, such as a live band, comedians, go-go dancers, or strippers -- especially if children are not around. They both can range from dive bars to elegant places of entertainment for the elite. They both derive from the specialized counter on which drinks are served. They both have a set of shelves of glasses and bottles behind that counter. In both cases the back bar is elaborately decorated with woodwork, etched glass, mirrors, and lights." Well if you have read the article, you should get the idea, because they all came from the article.
- Point is, the article is incomplete without a discussion of at-home bars.
Apparently at least part of the world doesn't know what an establishment is. You dismiss "not open to the public" and "no license" as just so much fluff. I submit that either one of these characteristics is sufficient to bar at-home bars from this article. Under your definition of "establishment," my wife's garden and my dog's doghouse are establishments.
- The point is the article is missing discussion of a related type of bar. You appear to have just discovered the entire world doesn't think the way you do, my fellow Wikipedian. You accuse me of inventing my own definition; I say you fail to see the bigger picture by restricting yourself to your limited-view definition of this type of bar.
- 1. Go to the wiki dictionary definition of "establishment" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/establishment). Nowhere does it say anything about license and open to the public being pre-requisites. These are your own inventions. Adamantly sticking to an obsolete, grabbed-off-the-net definition is not the way to provide information. Yes, I dismiss open to public and no license, and for a fair reason: because they do not apply to at-home bars, but that doesn't mean that at-home bars are not liquor-dispensing locales nevertheless, which is the basic premise of this article - a place where alcoholic beverages are served. You are defining "bar" as a place where alcoholic beverages are sold, and this is not correct. We are not talking here about gardens or doghouses, so let's stick to the topic of bars.
- 2.The DAB page (HERE) defines the "bar (establishment)" (though granted for directional, not semantical, purposes) as the place that "serves alcoholic beverages, also the counter at which drinks are served by a bartender". Both of these apply to at-home bars. Everyone knows that an at-home bar is not "retail"-based, but that doesn't mean it is not a bar either.
- 3. And finally, nowhere does it say in the WP:TITLE policy that parenthetical qualifiers are definitions on their own right; no, their purpose is to provide a basis for disambiguation. The purpose of the qualifier "(establishment)" in the title is to differentiate it from other meanings of "bar", nothing else.
First, I will say that I do not get definitions from Wiktionary or from any other on-line source. I prefer to use real dictionaries. Let's take a look at the Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus, 2nd edition, copyright 2008 by Oxford University Press. Under "establishment" it lists: "business, firm, company, concern, enterprise, venture, organization, operation; factory, plant, store, shop, office, practice."
What part of that makes you think of an at-home bar?
Contrary to what you wrote above, the DAB defines "Bar(establishment)" as "a retail establishment that serves alcoholic beverages, also the counter at which drinks are served by a bartender." The counter at which drinks are served is fully dealt with in a section of the article.
Definitions have limits. That is why they exist. You cannot expand a definition indefinitely to suit your purposes.
The title of an article defines what the article is about, and a qualifier, if there is one, is an integral part of that definition. Of course, "establishment" does differentiate from other meanings of "bar" -- every definition of a word must differentiate it from other possible uses of the word.
- Ho ho ho ho,,,,slow down. What sort of ultimatum is that on your last statement? Give your self a chance to wait for answers to your questions.
- Now give me my chance and hear my answer to your "What part of that [definition of establshment] makes you think of an at-home bar?":
- "The problem is the qualifier in the article has been haphazardly picked without thought to the fact that bars are not limited to commercial locales. That is, the title parenthetical qualifier is too restrictive - it assumes that a bar is only an "establishment" and, as such, of a commercial/retail nature only, and that is not correct. This is precisely why I skipped that section of the, again, directional but not sematical "definition" of bar."
- So, what I am proposing is that the title be slightly modified to accomodate both of the two existing needs: (1) the need to disambiguate it from other types of bars (bar (law) (law), bar (unit) (physics), bar (music) (music), etc) and (2) the need to accommodate both commercial and non-commercial types of bars (where "at-home" bars could be discussed). This can easily be accomplished by moving the title to, say, Bar (locale), since neither the legal, scientific, musical, etc. contexts of "bar" have anything to do with locales. That way the article can focus on describing what a bar is for (for serving alcoholic drinks, of course) rather than what it results in (income for someone, etc.).
- If this will help, consider a tiki bar: it could be a commercial locale or your neighbour could have one in his backyard,,, but they are both still tiki bars.
- Any objection to my proposal above?
Much against my better judgement, I will respond once more.
This article was created in July, 2003. At that time, it was named "Bar (establishment)". In the intervening nine years, you are the only person who has hit upon the bizarre notion that its title should be changed to include (as well as I can understand this) something like “bars” that are “non-commercial locales.”
Your reasoning seems to be that since liquor is served in at-home bars and there's a bar there (i.e, a counter), and there are people there who drink the liquor, then at-home bars ought to be included in an article about actual, real bars.
Frankly, that makes absolutely no sense to me, and I don't think you will find many people who support your idea.
Following your line of reasoning, one would have to conclude:
- (1) that because meals are served in the dining room of your house, therefore your dining room is a restaurant,
- (2) that if you have a pool table in your basement, and people play pool there, therefore your basement is a pool hall.
- I am no Newton or Einstein, but the mere fact that someone in the only individual in 100 years to state a certain law of physics or a certain theory of relativity, doesn't automatically define their notions as "bizarre". (Well, hey, maybe it does,,, but it's bizarre only to those who will be overrun by time.) So please so much for that line of adjectives.
- You seem to imply that at-home bars are not "actual, real bars." How you got there, I don't know...
- Regarding your "line of reasoning" statements: I see why it can be easy to get lost in this "bar" world...that's because in the retail world the word "bar" is used with 2 meanings: a bar can be (1) the entire edifice (when referenced from the exterior) or (2) the counter/drinks area within that edifice (when referenced once you are in the interior of the edifice). (This situation is unlike a "pub" --and other such alcohol dispensing places-- which is the locale only and nothing else and, so, there is no chance for ambiguity when we are dealing with other such retail establishments where alcoholic drinks are also served.) However, at home, the word "bar" has only one meaning: the counter area where drinks are served. To be exact, in the residential arena the bar IS the counter and the counter IS the bar.
- But this is sidetracking. We can either leave the title as it is (my preference actually) and throw in a small section of at most 2-3 sentences dicussing at-home bars, or we can modify the title slightly to something like "Bar (locale)" if that will help you better digest the presence of 2-3 sentences discussing at home bars. Or we can take the whole thing to an RFC. By default or not, it's your call.
Full bar redirection
Is it really necessary to have a redirect notice heading the page for one episode of an animated comedy show? Talk about imposing trivial, dumbed-down worldviews. Whoever put this on the page, you do realize you can get professional help for your diet of televisual crap? Meanwhile stop inflicting everyone else with it!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 14:34, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- I agree.
I wish People who write stuff on Canada would realize that THERE IS MORE THAN ONE CANADA. If you are from the maritimes (as you wrote about Nova Scotia) realize that you have more English traditions, that took longer to die. modern Central Canada is aligned with cultural trends in the U.S. I had never heard the a bar referred to as "pub" in Ontario until I visited the UK. It was called a tavern like in the U.S. until the 1980's...when the term bar took off to mean any drinking spot. Also a tavern and a pub are similar, bother started from the TAVERN in the UK(there are still old colonial taverns still standing), In the they UK started calling taverns public house but U.S and Canada generally continued calling it a Tavern well into the 70's. But the North American tavern never developed like the family friendly UK Pubs, they pretty much stayed being places where men when to drink and if they were luck by change maybe get something to eat. And thats where the term BAR comes fromStarbwoy (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- Largely agreed.
So this page has an image of Jimmy Wales at a bar, and I'm kind of wondering why. The image doesn't really add anything to the article, and it just seems odd to me. It kind of feels like it is there as sort of a nod to fellow Wikipedians, with no real purpose for the actual audience. Would there be any opposition to it being removed, or switched to something more relevant?--Gordonrox24 | Talk 17:23, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Errata: Bar / Bar Rail
Early bars frequently didn't have seats. There was a wooden or metal rail installed along one wall at about elbow-heighth, and the standing patrons leaned against this rail as they drank. The rail is what the term "bar" originally referred to in this context. As drinking establishments evolved, seats were added, then tables, then a counter-top in place of the rail, which many establishments nonetheless retained as a foot-rail against the counter. the term "bar" eventually transferred from the rail, to the counter, to the establishment itself.