Talk:Barry Keoghan

Add Black 47 to 2018 in film Wikipedia Article

I would be grateful if someone can add Black 47, which Barry Keoghan appears in, to the 2018 in Film Wikipedia article. I had made a semi edit request on the talk page but there has been no response to it. You can find the request and the details here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.0.113.197 (talk) 16:39, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

IPA in lead is almost certainly not how Keoghan and his family pronounce it; amend, or remove?

@Nardog: This[1][2] is obviously wrong from an Irish perspective. I'm pretty terrible at IPA for Irish (Dublin English? RTE English?), so I'm not sure how to write it correctly, and while the The Late Late Show doesn't seem to upload full interviews on YouTube (I couldn't find any clips of the host introducing the guest with his full name, and he's just called "Barry" throughout what clips I could find), but you can hear an actual Irish reading here: it definitely does not have a /ɡ/ sound in the middle, and I'm very dubious about the /i/ in the first syllable. The latter is more like a /j/, at least as I was taught to write the English pronunciations of Irish names in IPA in college, and the IPA in Keogh agrees.

But if we don't know how to write an Irish pronunciation (the pronunciation used by the subject himself and members of his immediate family?), and I'm honestly not interested in being prescriptive about Irish name pronunciations for our American readers (who almost always pronounce Domhnall Gleeson's first name with an /m/ sound in the middle) anyway, and if your source (which I can't access for some reason... the video player just doesn't show up) actually does show someone pronouncing it /kiˈoʊɡən/, should we just delete the IPA since both the "American" pronunciation and the "Irish" pronunciation can apparently be sourced and is not really "wrong" if it's actually used by English-speakers?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:05, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Hmm... the presenter in the same clip pronounced it more like what we currently have (still sounds like a /j/, though...), but he wasn't going to stop and correct either her or the announcer in his victory speech. I did also find this though, which shows an interviewer introduce him on a Dublin radio station the way I think his name is pronounced. Keoghan doesn't seem to correct him. This combined with the obviously carefully prepared announcer's pronunciation at the IFTA awards makes me think Balfe just slipped up. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

The link is working for me. Access it again, and refresh the page if it still doesn't load. It's probably because of your browser's tracking protection. If it still doesn't work, [3] is the raw URL of the relevant fragment of the video. I've also extracted the relevant part of the audio here.

He clearly pronounces it with a voiced obstruent between vowels, which I hear to be [ɣ]. And if [ɣ] was to be mapped to any phoneme in English, it must be /ɡ/, as it is a possible allophone of /ɡ/ in this position (intervocalic) (see e.g. Cruttenden 2014:172, Hawkins 1984).

I transcribed it /ki-/ simply on the basis that it is more well-formed for most speakers of English as /kj/ in a stressed syllable is rarely if ever followed by anything other than /uː/ or /ʊ(ə)/ in native vocabulary (I doubt many monolingual English speakers can pronounce Kyoto as a disyllable without some conscious effort). The choice between /kiˈoʊ-/ and /ˈkjoʊ-/ in this case is not an easy one as he says it pretty quickly, but since they probably don't contrast for most speakers anyway (and I certainly can't come up with a minimal pair), I'm fine with either.

And, needless to say, the correct pronunciation of a personal name is invariably the one the bearer uses. I don't know if Keoghan speaks Irish, but if his own pronunciation of the name deviates from Irish, then that's a rather compelling piece of evidence his pronunciation is better regarded as one in English. Nardog (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah, okay, so he pronounces it as something like /kjoʊɡən/ (two syllables, stress on the first, definitely not the three-syllables currently given in the article) in that video, but virtually everyone else in Ireland (including, presumably, other members of his family, who needless to say share his surname) pronounces it another way? I'm not going to tell you my real surname, but I definitely pronounce it differently from how my father pronounces it, and neither is more or less "correct" than the other. (Actually, my pronunciation is an artificial one I use when talking to Japanese and Americans, as may very well be the one Keoghan uses in the Reuters video: when speaking with my own relatives and other Irish, though, I would be slightly more likely to pronounce it the way other members of my family do.)

So yeah, how he himself pronounces it is of more value to our article on him than how his non-notable relatives probably pronounce it, but we don't have any concrete evidence (apart from our own OR) that how he pronounces it in the Reuters video is what he would see as the only "correct" pronunciation, or even how he always pronounces it himself. (My name's not that hard, but a lot of my Irish expatriate friends -- literally everyone with a Gaelic name -- definitely have one pronunciation for Irish and people in Ireland and another pronunciation for foreigners abroad.) I would say (it's OR, but since it's talk page discussion my OR is as good as yours) that the preponderance of the evidence supports the idea that he doesn't see /kjoʊɡən/ as the only correct pronunciation, since radio interviewers and announcers at award ceremonies in his hometown have repeatedly pronounced it otherwise (and I can tell you that most people who grew up in Ireland but had not heard of him would do the same on first seeing the name in print).

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:35, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

This was a pure coincidence. Anyway, in terms of Wikipedia policy, the current article text (assuming /i/ is a typo and /j/ was what was intended -- the actual current article text is completely unsourced and totally wrong) violates WP:NOR, since it requires a specific type of life experience and prior knowledge (or lack thereof) to interpret the source as you have done. A first-generation member of the Irish diaspora would almost certainly interpret the source as meaning that Keoghan himself, as an international film star, has one pronunciation that he uses when talking to foreigners and another pronunciation that he uses back home (actually, one-syllable /kjoʊn/ and two-syllable /kjoʊən/ are probably equally acceptable in Ireland, so two pronunciations at home?). If a source requires interpretation to arrive at the conclusion our article does, that is OR/SYNTH. The bulk of the evidence says that /kjoʊ(ə)n/ does not consider /kjoʊgən/ to be the only acceptable pronunciation of his name, as it has been pronounced /kjoʊ(ə)n/ in radio interviews, at the IFCA awards, and almost certainly also on the national television program The Late Late Show, and he does not seem to have any problem with it. My interpretation of this evidence is also OR and cannot be added to the article as-is (i.e., a footnote saying Keoghan's surname is most commonly pronounced /kjoʊ(ə)n/ in Ireland, but when speaking to international media Keoghan sometimes uses the pronunciation /kjoʊgən/, which is closer to how most English-speakers would read his name as written.), but it's informed by a larger number of primary reliable sources and almost certainly a better awareness of /kjoʊ(ə)n/'s background (as an Irish person who frequently talks to international folks with no connection to Ireland) than your interpretation is. Given this, I think either removing the IPA or adding or /kjoʊ(ə)n/ would be the best path forward. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

BTW, the reading of "keogh-" as /kjoʊ-/ would be pretty intuitive for most people who grew up in Ireland. I suspect The choice between /kiˈoʊ-/ and /ˈkjoʊ-/ in this case is not an easy one as he says it pretty quickly is the result of your assuming that the "e" would be pronounced /i/ (and that the /j/ reading is a derivative pronunciation resulting from people speaking quickly and abbreviating syllables) based on non-Hiberno English spelling conventions. they probably don't contrast for most speakers anyway sounds very wrong, at least to me: your previous IPA rendering had three syllables (key-OH-gun). I'm... actually not sure if the phonological systems of certain varieties of English other than the one I grew up with don't allow for syllables consisting of /kj母/ (where 母 is any vowel other than uː and ʊ(ə)) and would rather parse it as someone /kiˈoʊ-/ very quickly, but that conversation seems like one for a different page. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:39, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I came here hoping for some clarity because it seems like he's just being polite when people mispronounce his name. (There is the family name Keogh, which is usually pronounced like key-oh. I would have expected Keoghan to be pronounced like Keo-Han but that is not the case here. It is definitely not key-OH-gun or Keegan or anything else with a hard g, it is almost funny that Balfe got it so badly wrong right after the voice over but Irish people will misread Irish words too sometimes.) It is clear from the voice over from IFTA video that it is a variation that is pronounced much more like k'-owen, (see also Keown) and that is consistent with the Irish language where the 'gh' is almost silent.
So yeah, Keoghan - Keown. Best of luck with the IPA, I'm done. -- 109.78.198.49 (talk) 16:25, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

As I said elsewhere, if we could find a source of him pronouncing differently when around Irish people, I would support replacing the transcription in a heartbeat, for the correct pronunciation of any personal name is invariably the bearer's. So I really tried this time, specifically looking for Irish sources. And I found this (backup excerpt). Transcribed to the best of my ability:

D'Arcy:	Now, Mammal is a new mainly-Irish movie, which co-stars Barry—/kjoʊˈhæn/? Is it /ˈkjoʊən/ or /kjoʊˈhæn/?
Keoghan:	/ˈkjoʊɡən/.
D'Arcy:	/ˈkjoʊɡən/! Neither of the aforementioned, yeah. Because people—it depends on where they are in the country. K-E-O-G-H-A-N. Like, down where I am, it would be /kjoʊˈhæn/.
Keoghan:	Yeah. Now, people abroad, they tend to get it 'cause they pronounce it—the G—whereas Irish people are like, /ˈkjoʊən/. Um, /ˈkjoʊɡən/.
D'Arcy:	It's /ˈkjoʊɡən/.
Keoghan:	Yeah.
D'Arcy:	Well, you wouldn't if you see GH in Irish. It would—the G would be silent.
Keoghan:	/ˈkjoʊən/, yeah.

This shows he is well aware of more authentic Irish variants, and yet adopts the hard G as a conscious choice. I would still support replacing it if he switched to a more etymological (or any) pronunciation (like Hasan Minhaj did), but absent such a source we have no other choice. Nardog (talk) 17:28, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Interesting. Ray D'Arcy is an excellent source (and RTÉ should be enough to satisfy any Irish doubters), it isn't even surprising that he'd go through the variations like that (D'Arcy was a children's tv presenter for many years, and a radio presenter even longer). I wouldn't use the word "authentic" but if Barry and his family pronounce it that way then we have another variation, unlikely though it may seem. I'm very surprised he uses the hard g (but not surprised that he shrugs it off when people pronounce it in other ways) and that source should be more than enough to settle it. Although I would have to leave the exact IPA transliteration to the experts. -- 109.79.168.197 (talk) 03:00, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

In case it wasn't clear, by "more authentic Irish variants" I was referring to the ones without the hard G. He knows the name doesn't have a hard G in the Irish language, but he uses it anyway. Keoghan's pronunciation still sounds like trisyllabic to me, but that may be owing to him enunciating it for clarity, and phonotactic constraints are spectra (some say /s/ri Lanka, others say /ʃ/ri Lanka), so I'm fine with /kj/. Nardog (talk) 04:51, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

TLDR Keoghan clearly states his name in an interview on RTE with Ray Darcy (including clarification how not to pronounce his name). It is Keoghan with a hard g. -- 109.78.197.10 (talk) 16:15, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Minor cameo in lead

It is WP:UNDUE to highlight the minor cameo role he plays in The Batman in the lead section, without proper context, and like as if it was an actual starring role. In the cameo of "Unnamed Arkham prisoner" (aka The Joker) he is heard and not shown, and it is only a very brief scene near the end of the film. Director Matt Reeves has said there is no guarantee that Keoghan will return to the series.

This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, and this article is supposed to be about the life of Barry Keoghan, it remains to be seen if this cameo is significant. For now it is current news but that does not make it a career highlight just yet. If he gets to reprise the role in another film (and not just a deleted scene/short to promote the film) then it might actually be worth highlighting it in the lead. -- 109.78.192.128 (talk) 14:41, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Barry Keoghan image

There is a person with no account, keeps removing the most recent image for Barry Keoghan,

Barry Keoghan in 2020

, The person removes it and replaces it with an older one (2017), where you cannot even see his eyes. This person has reverted any attempt to apply the second image, not even within the article lower down. Can anyone advise what the consensus is here? I find it very unfair the way my work is being rejected by someone who doesn't even have a Wikipedia account. Also, is it true that images should be rejected if in .png format? Someone please advise what the advantages are using .jpg.James Kevin McMahon (talk) 21:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

It is okay to be new and not yet know the differences between different file formats and when it is best to use PNG or JPEG. Please consult the documentation to learn more (or Google). For example the help documents for Wikipedia:Uploading images section file formats says "Additionally, some file types produce better results than others. For more information on preferred file formats accepted for sound, video and image files at Wikimedia Commons, see Commons:File types." The Wikimedia commons documentation explains that "JPEG (also JPG) is appropriate for photographs, especially when the photographs are already JPEGs." If you have a photograph it is should almost always be JPEG format, and yes there are always obscure exceptions and many of people on Wikipedia who never learned about file formats and use PNG for everything, but if it is a photograph of person it should be a JPEG. I have no objection to including another photo of Keoghan in the article body if it is in JPEG format. -- 109.76.196.193 (talk) 20:34, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

One thing I am not is new,! I have been doing this for a while. I have googled it, and jpeg and png both have their advantages and disadvantages, there is very little to chose between them. I consulted the teahouse about this incident only to be effectively told that I have lost this argument, so congratulations.James Kevin McMahon (talk) 06:49, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I've uploaded the JPEG version of the picture. Just because one file is a JPEG and the other is a PNG doesn't mean we must pick the JPEG. We can just convert the PNG to JPEG and then decide on the merit of the picture itself. Nardog (talk) 08:10, 26 September 2023 (UTC)