Talk:Bavarian Geographer

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New to headings?[edit]

I am planning to insert here the original Latin document with the English translation and some comments. -- cc

Not a good idea, really. We have Wikisource for such purposes. --Ghirla -трёп- 10:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Text of the document[edit]

(division into 2 parts, numbers and formatting according to the publisher: H. Łowmiański)
(Part 1)

Descriptio civitatum et regionum ad septentrionalem plagam Danubii.
(1) Isti sunt qui propinquiores resident finibus Danaorum, quos vocant Nortabtrezi, ubi regio, in qua sunt civitates LIII per duces suos partite.
(2) Uuilci, in qua civitates XCV et regiones IIII.
(3) Linaa est populus, qui habet civitates VII.
(4-6) Prope illis resident, quos vocant Bethenici et Smeldingon et Morizani, qui habent civitates XI.
(7) Iuxta illos sunt, qui vocantur Hehfeldi, qui habent civitates VIII.
(8) Iuxta illos est regio, que vocatur Surbi, in qua regione plures sunt, que habent civitates L.
(9) Iuxta illos sunt quos vocant Talaminzi, qui habent civitates XIII.
(10) Beheimare, in qua sunt civitates XV.
(11) Marharii habent civitates XL.
(12) Uulgarii regio est inmensa et populus multus habens civitates V, eo quod mutitudo magna ex eis sit et non sit eis opus civitates habere.
(13) Est populus quem vocant Merehanos, ipsi habent civitates XXX.
Iste sunt regiones, que terminant in finibus nostris.

(Part 2)

Isti sunt, qui iuxta istorum fines resident.
(14) Osterabtrezi, in qua civitates plus quam C sunt.
(15) Miloxi, in qua civitates LXVII.
(16) Phesnuzi habent civitates LXX.
(17) Thadesi plus quam CC urbes habent.
(18) Glopeani, in qua civitates CCCC aut eo amplius.
(19) Zuireani habent civitates CCCXXV.
(20) Busani habent civitates CCXXXI.
(21) Sittici regio inmensa populis et urbibus munitissimis.
(22) Stadici, in qua civitates DXVI populousque infinitus.
(23) Sebbirozi habent civitates XC.
(24) Unlizi populus multus civitates CCCCXVIII.
(25) Neriuani habent civitates LXXVIII.
(26) Attorozi habent civitates CXLVIII, populus ferocissimus.
(27) Eptaradici habent civitates CCLXIII.
(28) Uuilerozi habent civitates CLXXX.
(29) Zabrozi habent civitates CCXII.
(30) Znetalici habent civitates LXXIIII.
(31) Aturezani habent civitates CIIII.
(32) Chozirozi habent civitates CCL.
(33) Lendizi habent civitates XCVIII.
(34) Thafnezi habent civitates CCLVII.
(35) Zeriuani, quod tantum est regnum, ut ex eo cuncte genetes Sclauorum exorte sint et originem, sicut affirmant, ducant.
(36) Prissani civitates LXX.
(37) Uelunzani civitates LXX.
(38) Bruzi plus est undique quam de Enisa ad Rhenum
(39) Uuizunbeire
(40) Caziri civitates C.
(41) Ruzzi.
(42) Forsderen.
(43) Liudi.
(44) Fresiti.
(45) Serauici.
(46) Lucolane.
(47) Ungare.
(48) Uuislane.
(49) Sleenzane civitates XV.
(50) Lunsizi civitates XXX.
(51) Dadosesani civitates XX.
(52) Milzane civitates XXX.
(53) Besunzane civitates II.
(54) Uerizane civitates X.
(55) Fraganeo civitates XL.
(56) Lupiglaa civitates XXX.
(57) Opolini civitates XX.
(58) Golensizi civitates V.

Image:Hermann Geogr Bavar1.jpg[edit]

Image:Hermann Geogr Bavar1.jpg is related to this article and is currently the only image related to the subject. There is no reason we should not use it here, and all the reasons to use it. Please stop removing it without a proper explanation at talk.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  05:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"The map is original research and should be removed., hosted on a free-for-all website, is not a valid source of information for Wikipedia. Assigning locations to all those tribes (many of them being hapax legomena) is, at best, wild-eyed speculation." [Copied from my old notice on Talk:West Slavs .] --Ghirla-трёп- 17:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
The article (the one on the page image is from) looks referenced, and seems to fullfill criteria for WP:RS and WP:ATT. Please note that WP:NOR is related to research done by Wikipedians, research done by others and published even if only on websites can be included in the article. Feel free to adjust the caption to reflect the dispute, perhaps "speculated locations" or such.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Geographers category[edit]

Should this man be the only person in the Geographers category, or should he be in the German geographers category, or maybe the Geographers category should just be removed? I am unsure, so I raise the issue for more expert editors to answer. --DThomsen8 (talk) 01:10, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Gród / grad / gordъ / ... variants[edit]

I've changed the term gords to gróds as IMVHO less speculative, however after second thought a few other forms could be suitable as well. Feel free to correct me. aegis maelstrom δ 16:00, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Bavarian Geographer image[edit]

Several years ago was already emphasized the problem with the image which shows the alleged distribution of the tribes mentioned by Bavarian Geographer. According my research, the image was copied from the link, and if understood well, it was made by certain J. Herrmann, who for me is an unknown scholar, and basically the image is just his mere speculation and as such it can not be taken for granted. He based his assumption on the lines of communication and trade routes (Fi. 2): According the translation:

"Fig. 1. Similarly, fixed and the probable lines of communication and the frontier tribes, which builds its description Bavarian Geographer: a, b, c, d - trade routes, etc. - duplicate names of tribes; e - localization of several tribes; HP - western boundary of the Khazars and eastern boundary of the Frankish state; h - burgovye District; and - localization of individual tribes. Group 1 - the tribes bordering on the Frankish empire: 1 - Nortabtrezi; 2 - Vuilci; 3 - Linaa; 4 - Bethenici; 5 - Smeldingon; 6 - Morizani; 7 - Hehfeldi; 8 - Surbi; 9 - Talaminzi; 10 - Beheimare; 11 - Marharii; 12 - Vulgari; 13 - Merehani. Group II - tribes, located on the trade route Bardowick - the mouth of the Oder: 14 - Osterabtrezi. Group III - tribes, located on the trade route Magdeburg - Rebus - Poznan- Kiev; 15 - Miohi; 16 - Phesnuzi; 17 - Thadesi; 18 - Glopeani; 19 - Zuireani; 20 - Busani; 21- Sittici; 22 - Stadici; 23 - Sebbirozi; 24 - Unlizi; 25 - Neriuani. Group IV - tribes along the trade route mouth of the Danube - Dniester - Wisla - Baltic; 26 - Attorizi; 27 - Eptaradici; 28 - Vuillerozi; 29 - Zabrozi; 30 - Zuetalici; 31 - Aturezani; 32 - Chozirozi; 33 - Lendizi; 34 - Thafnezi; 35 - Zeriuani; 36 - Prissani; 37 - Velunzani; 38 - Bruzi; 39 - Vuizumbeire. Group V - tribes along the way Sarkel - Kiev - Byzantium: 40 - Caziri; 41- Ruzzi; 42 - Forsderen Liudi; 43 - Fresiti; 44 - Serauici; 45 - Licolane; 46 - Ungare. Group VI- tribes along the trade route Krakow - Bautzen - Erfurt - Prague - Krakow: 47 - Vuislane; 48 - Sleenzane; 49 - Lunsizi; 50 - Dadosesani; 51 - Milzane; 52 - Besunzane; 53 - Verizane; 54 - Fraganeo; 55 - Lupiglaa; 56 - Opoloni; 57 - Golensizi"

According my knowledge the Vistulans were on Vistula river, the Lendians around or east of it in the region of Lesser Poland, while the so called White Croats tribes were scattered from Bohemia in the west, to around Kraków and Lesser Poland, along Galicia (Eastern Europe), to the western Ukraine Carpathian border in the east.

Problem with his distribution is that in the group "IV - along the [alleged] trade route mouth of the Danube - Dniester - Wisla - Baltic", the tribes "27 - Eptaradici; 28 - Vuillerozi; 29 - Zabrozi; 30 - Zuetalici" are skipped and not even mentioned, as such after the 26 - Attorizi follow in the same line the 31 - Aturezani; 32 - Chozirozi; 33 - Lendizi etc. He robably connected the name Attorizi (populus ferocissimus, 148 cities) and Aturezani (104 cities) with the Bulgars, or even Avars, as they had a dynastic myth by which originate from the Attila the Hun whose name is similar with those of Attorizi and Aturezani. That tribe could also be the remains of some Avars as their khaganate was disestablished 804, while the work was written between 830-870. However, in both case he would place the name more West and South-West, south of Danube (12 - Vulgari, Bulgars?). Both Bavarian Geographer and "Herrmann" pattern and model are confused and hesitant. If anything is sure, those Slavic tribes mentioned above lived indeed north of Danube.

But then again, if the pattern of distribution is followed by the rule that each tribe lived near each other in a certain line, and neverthless the distance done by Herrmann's placement, wouldn't 32 - Chozirozi (250 cities) and 33 - Lendizi (98 cities) be actually the (White) Croats and Lendians? As far I researched, the Chozirozi are considered unidentified East Slavic tribe, and some unofficially tried to connect with Khazars, yet again they are accurately mentioned as 40 - Caziri (100 cities) in the east, but could also be that some names were repeated more than one time, and obviously there's the possibility of error in the record done by Bavarian Geographer.

At the end, I think that the image can not be taken seriously and for granted, especially used as a relevant and secure source for the distribution of any tribe mentioned in the document, actually, find that the document is more relevant than the image, neverthless its obvious flaws.--Crovata (talk) 17:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC)