Talk:Beer Street and Gin Lane

A fact from Beer Street and Gin Lane appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 13 February 2008, and was viewed approximately 11,000 times (disclaimer) (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that William Hogarth's prints Beer Street and Gin Lane contrast the misery of gin drinkers with the happiness and good health of those who drink beer?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2008/February.

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Unprofessional Sentence[edit]

FTA: "The gin crisis was gin-uinely severe. "
I think that this sentence is pretty unprofessional, but I'm not certain on whether or not it should be removed/altered.
Aaron (talk) 03:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

vandalised and now reversed.--Grahame (talk) 03:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns[edit]

I highly respect the hard work that went into creating the various Hogarth articles, including this one. However I have the following reservations: The tone shifts to being inappropriate, and being too much like scholarly articles (against policy). Lack on inline citation, and over reliance on general references. Too much detail in the main article, should be split off into separate articles. Overly grandiose quotations (borderline Peacock terms), suggest a non-neutral Point of View. Lack of art terms, such as "Line of Beauty", the term is Contrapposto which Hogarth did not invent. Lack of artistic comparisons, lack of contemporary views. Formatting of box quotes, and quotes is off putting. Overreliance on only a handful of scholars, there should be a greater number of words and authors from which to cite from. In short, the Hogarth topic needs extensive work. Zidel333 (talk) 15:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have to disagree, but I really don't want to start a discussion on it so I won't. With regard to the "Line of Beauty", this is Hogarth's own term for the serpentine shape, and though the S-Curve is an example of this, contrapposto is not. The text says "identified as" not "invented" as that is what he did, and the important thing here is the connection between Hogarth's idea of the "Line of Beauty" and the shape of the figure.Yomangani ^talk 16:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I respect your want to not get involved with mudslinging arguments, but your unwillingness to engage in an open debate does not speak well for you, or in light of the whole open nature of Wikipedia. It is small wonder that the articles you work on are by and by single user ones as you do not foster any sense of teamwork with such attitudes. Zidel333 (talk) 16:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ill-informed character assessment, most delightful. Don't let me keep you. Yomangani ^talk 16:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Prosperity of Beer Street causing poverty of Gin Lane"[edit]

There are several references in this article to the prosperity of Beer Street (represented by the woman in the sedan chair) being the causing poverty of Gin Lane. This isn't an interpretation I've heard before, and the article itself doesn't explain this. Would someone who knows more about this interpretation be willing to put some more detailed explanations in? Wardog (talk) 10:35, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Paulson is the only commentator that remarks on this. I'll elaborate on his argument a little more when I get some time. Yomangani ^talk 12:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The painter on Beer Street[edit]

The sign being painted by the ragged painter contains a caption that reads "Health to the Barley Mow." Around this barley mow a group of jovial (but not drunken) villagers dance--and upon it is one man drinking a tankard of frothy beer. Beer is made of barley. Gin is made of, ummm, something else. If it does have barley in it at all, the most prominent ingredient would still be juniper berries---in which case they would more likely be dancing around a juniper tree.

This is not a sign advertising gin, but one advertising beer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hank Cooke (talk • contribs) 21:44, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the one he's painting - he's working on the little placard below that shows gin bottles and glasses. Yomangani ^talk 13:46, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The little placard is advertising not gin, but a range of distilled spirits - above his paint brushes I can read "CALVAD" for calvados, a French apple brandy, especially popular in Normandy, and also below his paint brushes, "RUM". Not sure about the other letters, but it seems to me that the implication is that moderate consumption of a variety of distilled spirits is just as normal, just as English, as drinking beer - still true, to this day. The (poor, ragged, perhaps like Hogarth) artist is admiring his representation in the painted diagram of the bottle receiving the distillate, painted from life - the spirits bottle he has suspended from the sign's support. Hence his pleased smile. Gin is distilled from grain, like many other spirits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arvwdrenth (talk • contribs) 15:11, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It may also be that the man advertising spirits is dressed in rags and painting a cheap little sign because his business has been doing very poorly for a long time and he is desperate.

This could be taken in more than one way though: Hogarth may simply approve of the fact that the spirits business is not doing well, or he may be warning that "gin" is about to displace beer; or both, or something else. TooManyFingers (talk) 15:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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"Clean straw"[edit]

I presume that "Clean straw for nothing" means something to lie down on after getting too drunk. But are there more reasons for Hogarth to write this? For example, why do they have such a supply of clean straw that they permanently advertise it, being in a city as opposed to on a farm? Did distillers do their own threshing? TooManyFingers (talk) 15:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]