Talk:Berlin

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Former good article Berlin was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Metropolitan region vs. “Capital” region[edit]

Please don’t confuse the Berlin metropolitan area as Wikipedia defines a Metropolitan area with the “Capital” region as some officials/agencies in Berlin-Brandenburg would like to define the region. According to Wikipedia: “A metropolitan area, metro area or metro is a region consisting of a densely populated urban core and its less-populated surrounding territories, sharing industry, infrastructure, and housing” – note that farming and other distant rural areas are not included. The metro area is shown for example as the yellow parts of the maps and by the lists of towns. Personally, I would also say it’s the area you can reach by public transport with a Berlin ABC ticket. The given reference http://www.berlin-brandenburg.de/daten-fakten/ also refers this as “Berliner Umland”.

The “Capital Region Berlin-Brandenburg” is a construction that government agencies are trying to push, but it simply includes all of Brandenburg with Berlin. It is true, that in the wider sense Brandenburg’s economy is generally, but not exclusively, oriented towards Berlin. Some day they may even become politically united. However, it is stretching it a bit far to say that vast rural areas such as the forests of the Uckermark or the swamps of the Spreewald belong to the metropolitan area of Berlin. It would be like saying all of Connecticut is part of the Hartford metropolitan area.

So, please adhere to the definition set by Wikipedia and do not follow some megalomaniac political redefinition. Alandeus (talk) 13:35, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello :) It is not up to us or Wikipedia to define Berlin metropolitan, that is up to The state of Berlin and Brandenburg, or the German Federal State. If the official numbers are 6 million then it is 6 million, we are not the judgers of that, we follow the official figures, and fact is that Berlin metropolitan are Berlin-Brandenburg. and the links clearly defines the Berlin-Brandenburg as Berlins metro area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.81.168 (talk) 18:25, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I’m sorry User 86.52.81.168, but in the encyclopedic realm of Wikipedia, its definitions are quite sound (see above). If some well-meaning government officials for the Berlin/Brandenburg Metropolitan Region have a different idea of what a metropolitan area is, they are welcome to espouse something else on their own “official” websites, no matter how off the mark they are. What they are actually advocating is simply a much larger regional area with a real metropolitan area in the middle as a focal point. The faraway fields of Brandenburg only belong to the Berlin area in so far as that is where the Berliners get their vegetables from for example or where they go for a weekend getaway. Greetings from Berlin, yours Alandeus (talk) 09:12, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Official definitions are all we need with reliable links, the figure of 4.5 mio people don't have any link, but the claims of 6 mio people does, so that is the guideline and what we can use as a reliable source. Wikipedia is not a place to make definitions, but a encyclopedia, to put reliable content. At least let's change the figure to include 6 mio people. But is must say that you don't recognize the official figures from the states of Berlin and Brandenburg plus IKM (Initiativkreises Europäische Metropolregionen in Deutschland) are not in the spirit if Wikipedia, where reliable sources are all we recognized. The German language site on Wikipedia Metropolregion Berlin/Brandenburg recognized the links, why not on the English language site? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.81.168 (talk) 22:43, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a place to make definitions. When reviewing Metropolitan Areas it must have a fundamental definition as a benchmark when collecting and comparing data from many different sources. Some “official” sites seem to make their area larger than what actual metropolitan are for whatever interests they may have. Sure, information from these sites is useful, but only insofar as it does not distort encyclopedic evaluation.

About those 4.5 million inhabitants: The “Daten und Fakten zur Hauptstadtregion“ page (http://www.berlin-brandenburg.de/daten-fakten/) has those population figures in the middle and at the bottom of the page: about 3.5 for Berlin, 900 thousand for the area around Berlin (“Berliner Umland”) and 1.6 million for the rest of Brandenburg. I’m sure these latter, more distant Brandenburgers would be appalled to be considered being part of Berlin. Alandeus (talk) 10:01, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

The same site say that "Berlin und Brandenburg bilden zusammen die deutsche Hauptstadtregion mit 6 million menschen" In English - "Berlin and Brandenburg together form the German capital region with 6 million people", fact. You write "more distant Brandenburgers would be appalled to be considered being part of Berlin" Personal feelings are not relevant, the States of Berlin and Brandenburg say it is Berlin metro area, then it is what it is, fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.84.231 (talk) 18:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Dear 86.52.84.231: Back to basics once more: The quoted source says “Hauptstadtregion” or “capital region”. Granted, that is the whole region around the capital including all of rural Brandenburg. When Wikipedia talks about metropolitan areas, however, that is a concentration on exclusively urban areas and that is what we ought to stick to when evaluating the Berlin metro area, including the 4½ population figure. My opinion on the Brandenburgers, by the way, was not meant to be taken as a fact of course; it was just a tongue-in-the-cheek afterthought. Alandeus (talk) 07:50, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello Alandeus :) my point is that the only figures we have are the 6 million people, no source are mentioning 4½. And recarding metropolitan areas, a metro area are not only urban, but can contain large rural areas who are afffected by the urban area in terms of commuting and influence.. As stated in Wikipedia's own site - A metropolitan area combines an urban agglomeration (the contiguous, built-up area) with zones not necessarily urban in character, but closely bound to the center by employment or other commerce. These outlying zones are sometimes known as a commuter belt, and may extend well beyond the urban zone.

Metro areas with large rural areas are common, here are some.

Seattle metropolitan area 3.5 mio people - 21,202 km2

Phoenix metropolitan area 4.2 mio people - 37,744 km2

Hamburg Metropolitan Region 5.2 mio people - 26,000 km2. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.84.231 (talk) 12:07, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

The quaint Brandenburg towns of Wusterhausen, Schwedt and Lübbenau for example are each about an hour’s drive from Berlin and are therefore not really in the defined ‘commuter belt’ of or otherwise ‘closely bound’ in a Berlin metro area, i.e. that yellow area on the metro area map. And although that 4½ million figure is not mentioned explicitly on the aforementioned source page, it is pretty easy to come to this total from the data provided there. And those other examples; maybe those need to be reexamined as well. Alandeus (talk) 14:24, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

The map you are mentioning are self made by a wikipedia user called Broadway, so the definitions on that map are not any official status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.84.231 (talk) 19:07, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Of course Broadway’s excellent map of the Berlin/Brandenburg Metropolitan Region is not “official”. It visualises perfectly well though the area as correctly defined by the rest of the Berlin/Brandenburg Metropolitan Region article. Please, 86.52.84.231 (are you from Berlin or Brandenburg?), get off the idea that everything must have or rely only on an official source. Alandeus (talk) 09:50, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

It seems that we are not going anywhere :) lets at least mentioning the 6 mio, when the official sources claims it. What about this line, "the Berlin-Brandenburg Metropolitan Region, whit a population ranging from 4,5 to 6 mio people according to different sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.84.231 (talk) 22:19, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

No need to muddle up or bloat the lead paragraph with references to differing sources. Various population figures can already be found in the Demographics section. For the sake of completeness though, I’ve added “The entire Berlin-Brandenburg region has a population then of 6 million.” there with reference to Hauptstadtregion Berlin-Brandenburg. Hope this is a satisfactory compromise. Alandeus (talk) 09:04, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

West Berlin[edit]

West Berlin was not legally part of West Germany and to state that it was compromises the factual accuracy of this article. Paul Austin (talk) 13:44, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Although the Allies maintained their role as the highest executive authority - West Berlin did de facto become a "Bundesland" of the FRG, and was represented in the Bundestag and Bundesrat. West Berlins' residents were citizens of the FRG. There is no need to go into depth about West Berlins' complicated legal status - at least not in the lead. After all, this article is about Berlin and not West Berlin. More detailed information is given in the appropriate section (History, 2.2 20th century) of this article.--77.181.5.160 (talk) 17:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
de facto and de jure are important distinctions. To include wrong information in the lede is not good. It is possible to simplify without distorting.158.181.66.104 (talk) 22:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
"The constitution of West Berlin, as it came into force on 1 September 1950, maintained that West Berlin is a constituent Land of the Federal Republic, where the Basic Law of the Federal Republic is binding ... Under its 1950 constitution, West Berlin is a state of the Federal Republic..."Dorothy Elkins, ‎T. H. Elkins, ‎B. Hofmeister, Berlin: The Spatial Structure of a Divided City, 1988, p.40-41 [1] --82.113.99.196 (talk) 16:41, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

One of the Bundesländer?[edit]

In this article's second paragraph I find it stated that West Berlin was one of the states of the Federal Republic before the re-unification of Germany. In the 1980s I actually believed that to be the be the case. I know that Willi Brandt, who resided in West Berlin, served as chancellor of the Federal Republic before the re-unification. However, I also know that West Germany's laws allowed even citizens of East Germany to hold that office and others in West Germany, since they refused to recognize any distinction between different German citizenships. I think it was from reading Wikipedia's article on Germany's re-unification and its article on the Federal Republic that I came to think that Berlin was never incorporated in the Federal Republic until 1990. Is there a source for the assertion? Michael Hardy (talk) 11:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

West Berlin did de facto become a "Bundesland" of the FRG, and was represented in the Bundestag and Bundesrat. West Berlins' residents were citizens of the FRG. --77.181.244.33 (talk) 16:07, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
"The constitution of West Berlin, as it came into force on 1 September 1950, maintained that West Berlin is a constituent Land of the Federal Republic, where the Basic Law of the Federal Republic is binding ... Under its 1950 constitution, West Berlin is a state of the Federal Republic..."Dorothy Elkins, ‎T. H. Elkins, ‎B. Hofmeister, Berlin: The Spatial Structure of a Divided City, 1988, p.40-41 [2] --82.113.99.196 (talk) 16:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

"federal state"?[edit]

Early in this article we find this:

and federal state of the Federal Republic of Germany.

I've always thought "federal state" is a lousy way to translate the German word Bundesland. The prefix bundes- does generally mean "federal", but in English the term "federal state" is often taken to mean a federated state, like the U.S.A. or like Germany or Brazil or any of various others (Switzerland, Canada, Australia, Mexico,....), i.e. a state composed of a union of smaller states.

But a difficulty arises: I don't know if the English language has any good term that refers to the concept that Bundesland refers to. It would be a common noun whose referents include things like Schleswig-Holstein, Wisconsin, and Alagoas.

Is there some reasonable term that could be used here instead of the misleading term "federal state"? Michael Hardy (talk) 17:41, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I believe just "state" would be fine to use. "Federal state" is not correct for Berlin, or for West Berlin like in the quote. Actually West Berlin was not even a proper state, more something of a de facto-state tightly connected to West Germany. --JohanahoJ (talk) 18:39, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Name of Berlin / Etymology[edit]

The Etymology section should be redone, according to that of the German article. Cheers, Horst-schlaemma (talk) 16:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Articles needed for cultural/musical festivals[edit]

Hi! I think the following topics should be covered by at least some compact articles, as they're relevant not just for Berlin:

Thanks & all the best, Horst-schlaemma (talk) 12:44, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect Google Earth Icon Coordinate[edit]

Hello -

A Wikipedia Icon for Berlin linked to the Wikipedia article for Berlin is show in Google Earth in the Sierra Nevada mountains of the United States at the approximate coordinate of 38°45'N 119°22'W. Can this be fixed or can you tell me who I should notify? Thanks VFF0347 (talk) 15:59, 9 April 2014 (UTC) VFF0347

The coordinates at the top are perfectly OK: |latd=52 |latm=31 |lats= |longd=13 |longm=23 . Don't know where you got the Sierra Nevada mountains coordinates from. No correction necessary. Alandeus (talk) 05:58, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
There is nothing incorrect with the coordinates referenced in your article. However there is a Wikipedia icon shown in Google Earth (in the Sierra Nevadas at the coordinates which I mentioned) that is linked to your article. When a reader double clicks the icon in Google Earth it brings the reader to your article. From your response

I take it that you didn't have anything to do with placing the icon in Google Earth. Is that correct? Would you have any knowledge of how Wikipedia icons are set-up and/or controlled in Google Earth? Thanks so much ~~ VFF0347 — Preceding unsigned comment added by VFF0347 (talkcontribs) 20:27, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Copy edit template[edit]

It appears that someone close to Berlin, who might also not be a native English speaker, has been editing the page, and other copyeditors need to review the content for both grammar and tone. I have made numerous corrections today and also needed to add citations—I will continue to monitor the page.--Soulparadox (talk) 14:39, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Would be great if you were able to proofread some sections. FinnishDriver (talk) 11:26, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

London Crest[edit]

The article showing the sister cities and such, shows London with a crest. That is not the crest of London, is the crest of the City of London. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.237.96.9 (talk) 18:46, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Inconsistency: Weather data[edit]

It appears that there is a sizable difference between the weather data listed on this page and the weather data listed on the Geography of Berlin page. Maybe I'm missing something, but comparing the two pages it appears that the mean annual sunshine hours for Berlin are a) 1,625.6; and b) 2,025.6.

Is someone interested in looking into this, determining which is more accurate, and then making the appropriate changes if necessary?

54.68.59.137 (talk) 07:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Timeline of Berlin[edit]

What is missing from the recently created city timeline article? Please add relevant content. Contributions welcome. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 15:33, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Döner myth[edit]

"The Döner kebab was invented in Berlin in 1971" is a common misperception in Germany. The "berlin style" of Döner kebab sandwich, not surprisingly, developed in Berlin, through the 70s and 80s. But the legend that the Döner was "invented" there is highly misleading. The Döner meat itself has been served in Turkey for more than a century, and Döner sandwiches as snack or street food have been sold in Turkey since at least the 1950s. Statement needs clarification or removal. Discussion in Talk:Doner_kebab IamNotU (talk) 18:16, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

There, I fixed it. -- IamNotU (talk) 17:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

The case was already clarified with a source. BTW, this article is neither about Döner Kebab nor the history of Döner Kebab. Your additions are out of place. Sorry. FinnishDriver (talk) 16:05, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

FinnishDriver, you're right, that was too much information... I've moved it to Doner kebab#History. I did rewrite the one sentence about Döners here though, as it was inaccurate, and the Telegraph source was unreliable. Not only did they contradict their own report here: [3], but they still didn't check their facts - although Kadir Nurman is still dead, de:Mehmet Aygün is not! -- IamNotU (talk) 01:33, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

I still believe that mentioning the Döner myth is misplaced here. Its not the article about Döner Kebab. FinnishDriver (talk) 06:36, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

FinnishDriver, I appreciate your efforts to improve the article. Nevertheless, please do not continue to reintroduce the citation declaring the death of Mehmet Aygün. It was a false report (see [4]) and its inclusion without adequate context violates multiple Wikipedia guidelines and policies. I have replaced it with another one from the Wall Street Journal, which should be more than sufficient. Thank-you. -- IamNotU (talk) 03:47, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Removal of images[edit]

The intersection of Charlottenstrasse and Zimmerstrasse in Berlin c. 1986.
The intersection of Charlottenstrasse and Zimmerstrasse in Berlin c. 1996.

I added the two files shown at right to illustrate how Berlin has changed since its reunification. They show the same location, as evidenced by the signpost marking the intersection of Charlottenstraße and Zimmerstraße, and, in my opinion, deliver the full value of a thousand words in what they depict. I am certain, having taken the 1986 picture myself, that no arrangement of prose could have titillated my imagination nearly as much as it was upon seeing the changes in 2D.

They were subsequently removed for the following summarized reason: "one division pic is enough here". I would agree, except these images were not illustrating the division of Berlin, but instead: how drastically it changed upon reunification, and by all reasonable measure, how quickly as well. I think they improve the article, and am keen to know if others agree. Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 05:17, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

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West Berlin and East Berlin post-German reunification[edit]

I think there should be an article on how "West" and "East" co-exist in the post-reunification era, and why it's perhaps a misnomer to talk about just "Berlin". There's a bunch of fascinating sources on this topic; here's a sample: --Coin945 (talk) 05:40, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

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Contradicting statements in the ingress[edit]

This is from the ingress:

"Berlin is the second most populous city proper in the European Union and the seventh most populous urban area in the European Union. Located in northeastern Germany on the banks of the rivers Spree and Havel, it is the centre of the Berlin-Brandenburg Metropolitan Region, which has roughly 6 million residents from more than 180 nations, making it the sixth most populous urban area in the European Union."

So its the seventh most populous, then in the next sentence its the sixth. Seems both is based on the same source and the same year. I don't read French so I can't say what is right, but it should be corrected. Ulflarsen (talk) 12:33, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

So fix it! That's a nine year old dead link with no archive. You'll need to find a new source, start with the List of urban areas in the European Union page, which lists it in either seventh or third place, depending how you look at it... --IamNotU (talk) 15:01, 2 August 2017 (UTC)