Talk:Berlin Wall

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Former featured article candidate Berlin Wall is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
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January 29, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted
February 24, 2006 Peer review Reviewed
November 28, 2006 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Former featured article candidate
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"Secondary Response" Neutrality[edit]

The section under "Secondary Response" seems to assert that the wall and its effects were beneficial to East Germany and the East German people. Addidtionally, such assertions as "in spite of discontent with the wall, economic problems caused by dual currency and the black market were largely eliminated" are uncited. Further, only a brief mention of the shooting of refugees fleeing the Communist state is made. The wall is merely called a "propaganda disaster" for the East German government and the Soviets. HappyJake (talk) 14:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The "Secondary Response" section says that the wall stabilised the East German regime and the East German economy, which is not surprising as that was the purpose it was built for. This interpretation is shared almost unanimously also by Western commentators and historians. The section doesn't make a judgement if it was a good or a bad thing to stabilise the East German government, it just says that the wall had such an effect which is true regardless. Neither does it make a judgement if it was beneficial or damaging for the people of East Germany. So I can't see how neutrality is violated.
The facts that hundreds of people were killed on purpose at the wall, that it prevented freedom of movement for East Germans, and that there were numerous escape attempts, are described in detail in several paragraphs in the page. I wouldn't call that a "brief mention". Anorak2 (talk) 18:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

"The front of the convoy arrived at the outskirts of Berlin just before noon, to be met by Clay and Johnson, before parading through the streets of Berlin to an adoring crowd." - this wording is in no way neutral —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 06:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

"Western powers used it [the wall] in propaganda as a symbol of communist tyranny": According to the New Oxford American Dictionary, "propaganda" is now a chiefly derogatory word meaning "information of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view." While perhaps a pejoration of earlier definitions, it is the most commonly accepted and understood one in American English today. Applied to the current context, it isn't "propaganda" if it's the truth. While I think few people would see the wall as anything less sinister than a symbol of communist tyranny, I propose a more neutral phrasing that reads: "Western powers proffered it [the wall] as evidence of communist tyranny..." That is, it was held out as evidence, not that it *was* evidence on the one hand, and not that it was biased or misleading "propaganda" on the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philomathean (talkcontribs) 16:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Don't Fence Me In (song)[edit]

Citation (German): AFN ODER NICHT AFN - DAS IST HIER DIE FRAGE ! Während des Berliner Mauerbaus wendet sich ein falscher AFN Berlin, eine Variante des Deutschen Soldatensenders, an die in den Streit um die Berliner Mauer verwickelten amerikanischen Soldaten. Seine Einleitungsmelodie: "Don' t fence me in..." ("Zäune mich nicht ein"). From: —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

(German) Don't fence me in - with love from East Berlin! 8/19/2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:51, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Reference and link to the DER SPIEGEL mentioned above entered in Don't Fence Me In (song). Alandeus (talk) 12:04, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Deaths from defection attempts?[edit]

Is there a list of people who died when trying to escape to West Germany? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:16, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The museum "Gedenkstätte Deutsche Teilung Marienborn" otherwise known as Checkpoint Alpha (see [1] and [2]) has a big panel. But you'll have to drive there to look at it. Alandeus (talk) 08:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

This new article might help: List of deaths at the Berlin Wall‎. Alandeus (talk) 11:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Who exactly financed the construction and maintenance of the Berlin Wall?[edit]

Who exactly financed the construction and maintenance of the Berlin Wall? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I am 99.9% certain it was the government of East Germany. Pais (talk) 07:43, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
And who financed them but USSR? I.e., the Communist Party. . . . Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:34, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Wiki is not the place for emotive arguments or apportioning blame. If you have any supporting evidence, other than conventional wisdom, feel free to add it.Flanker235 (talk) 04:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The East German government built the wall so they paid for it and for the upkeep, which put such a strain on the economy that it contributed to the regime's downfall eventually. Communist party? Which communist party now? No communist party has a budget to build a wall. On the other hand, they did control nations behind the iron curtain. Alandeus (talk) 08:28, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected status of article[edit]

Hi everyone, I don't understand why this article is semi-protected. There's no discussion of the impetus for the protection here on the discussion page. Would someone fill me in? Newsthug (talk) 18:28, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it has to do with preventing graffiti on the Wall. ;-) Hope That Helps [HTH] . . . Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:26, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Farnol, 10 July 2011[edit]

The external link named "Moments in Time 1989/1990" should be , not .

Farnol (talk) 18:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Done Jnorton7558 (talk) 22:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Commemorative Event to mark 50-year Anniversary[edit]

Have you seen the news? The Article needs a new section on commemorations. (Not to forget, say city/nation leaders.)
"Germany marks rise and fall of Berlin Wall"

"Berlin has marked the 50th anniversary of the day the Berlin Wall started to go up with a memorial service and a minute of silence in memory of those who died trying to flee to the West."
Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:31, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to Alandeus for improving 50-year commemoration. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 02:54, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

What about border guards of GDR?[edit]

What about border guards of GDR, who were killed by asylum-seekers and western border guards? And what about Peter Fechter who dead because western policemen threaded to murder border guards of GDR? Didn’t they say “we will kill you, if you approach him”? Therefore border guard, who was bring to account, was discharge (in FRG). — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:52, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

A couple of East German border guards were killed by fellow guards trying to prevent them from escaping. No ‘asylum-seekers’ ever killed any guards, but I’m not sure about if some escapees did in self-defense. Western patrols did fire warning shots, but I don’t think there are any reliable references out there about a killing. If anything, it was by private members of escape-help organizations. Refer to Deaths on the border in Inner_German_border, which is where this topic belongs anyway. Alandeus (talk) 08:47, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
According to the Berlin Wall Memorial list of all victims, six GDR guards were killed by people crossing the wall.
  • Jörgen Schmidtchen (20 years old) was shot in 1962 by a deserting soldier. Schmidtchen assumed his fellow soldier to be on patrol like himself, approached him unsuspectingly while chatting pleasantly, and was shot. Schmidtchen's killer was then shot by another guard before he could get across the Wall.
  • Reinhold Huhn (20 years old) was shot in 1962 by a man who was heading to an escape tunnel. Huhn didn't know the man, just outside the forbidden zone, was an escapee, and approached him for a routine check of his I.D. papers. The man drew a gun and shot him. Huhn's killer was convicted of murder in 2000, following reunification.
  • Siegfried Widera (22 years old) was bludgeoned in 1963 by an escapee posing as a maintenance worker. Again, Widera approached him unsuspectingly, and was bashed on the head. He died two weeks later in hospital, of a fractured skull. It led the GDR authorities to order guards to stop being so trustful of people who appeared to be legitimately within the restricted area. His killer was charged with homicide in the West; the charge was dropped because he was genuinely distressed at having killed someone, and it could not be proved it had been premeditated.
  • Egon Schultz (21 years old) was shot in the lung in 1964 by a West Berlin citizen who was helping East Berliners escape into a tunnel. The helper shot first. Schultz was then also hit accidentally by several shots from another GDR guard firing almost blindly into the dark in response to the initial shot. A court after reunification found that the West Berlin man who had fired at Schultz had not acted in self defence; he was already dead by the time of the inquest, however, and therefore could not be charged.
  • Rolf Henniger (26 years old) was shot in 1968 by a defecting police officer. Henniger called out to him, again assuming that he had a legitimate reason for being there; the policeman shot him, then was himself shot by another guard.
  • Ulrich Steinhauer (24 years old) was shot five times in the back in 1980 by a fellow GDR soldier who wanted to defect, and who was on patrol with him. His killer was convicted of homicide in the West, but treated leniently as he was less than 21 years old.
Contrary to Alandeus' assumption, in none of these six cases did the guard shoot first. In five cases, they were partly or entirely unsuspecting, and taken by surprise; arguably in all six, since even Schultz didn't actually know that he was going to be confronted to armed defectors. Today these guards are commemorated as victims of the Berlin Wall, and of the system which placed them in that situation, just as much as the people who died while escaping to the West. You can read about them here. Aridd (talk) 08:26, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Add an anchor[edit]

{{edit semi-protected}} Please add {{anchor|Construction}} immediately above the start of the section Berlin Wall#Construction begins, 1961. Thank you in advance. (talk) 01:46, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Avicennasis @ 08:58, 13 Elul 5771 / 08:58, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 December 2011[edit]

I would like to update this page with scholarly additions to the discussion and more citations to help people studying the topic.

Mediadevelopment (talk) 00:26, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

This template is for requesting specific changes to the page, if you wish to edit it yourself you need to be autoconfirmed or confirmed--Jac16888 Talk 00:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 April 2012[edit]

An important reason the West Berlin border was not closed earlier was that doing so would cut off much of the railway traffic in East Germany. A new railway around West Berlin, the Berlin outer ring, was started to be built 1951 and when finished in 1961, it was more practical to close the border.

change to

An important reason that the West Berlin border was not closed earlier was that doing so would cut off much of the railway traffic in East Germany. Construction of a new railway bypassing West Berlin, the Berlin outer ring, commenced in 1951. Following the completion of the railway in 1961, it was more practical to close the border.

mshuha (talk) 05:01, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

HUGE TYPO, EDIT!!![edit]

Down on one of the captions, the caption states an NVA soldier was jumping the wall "NVA soldier Conrad Schumann defecting to West Berlin during the wall's early days in 1961" but NVA stands for North Vietnamese Army during the vietnam war. What should be there is NPA or the national peoples army. Preceding unsigned comment by Tmasonw (talk · contribs) 17:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC).

Fall of the wall date in the infobox?[edit]

I think it would be great to have the date that the wall fell in the infobox directly underneath the "construction started" heading. In fact it would be nice to also have "construction completed", which I've read was around 1980 but can't find a specific date. Any thoughts on adding these two headings to the infobox? RegardsNozzleberry (talk) 11:25, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

The wall didn't actually "fall" on one day, i.e. 9 November 1989. It was opened then and deconstruction began shortly thereafter and was mostly completed within about a year, with some few remainders still standing in places as memorials. So it was a gradual procedure without any definite dates available. A "deconstruction started 9 Nov. 1989" would be possible. Likewise, the wall was never completed as such. Fencing that was there from even before the brick or cement walls were erected were replaced bit-by-bit by more solid barriers. And these barriers were likewise constantly being renewed through various designs. And then the death-strips behind them were also constantly being modernized. So, it was a constant, never-ending work in progress. No wonder the GDR was going broke! Alandeus (talk) 13:11, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for a very educational response! So it sounds like the only option would be to include "deconstruction started: 9 Nov 1989" underneath the existing "construction started" heading. I personally think this would be a great addition to the article. The only problem is that the infobox uses the template:infobox historic building which only allows a "demolition date" heading. Is there any way to include the "deconstruction started" heading apart from editing the historic building template?Nozzleberry (talk) 23:44, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Can we please not use the word "deconstruction" in this context in the article? Although that's become a modish word used to mean "taking something apart," it means something else entirely.[3] English already has a perfectly good word for this, namely, "demolition." Sindinero (talk) 06:51, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the correction....So, what do we think about including "demolition started: 9 Nov 1989" in the infobox then?Nozzleberry (talk) 22:43, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 28 August 2012[edit]

NEW (change to Wikipedia Link adress)


MFWS (talk) 15:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Done A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 13:52, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Su Gyaw[edit]

"On 1 July, the day East Germany adopted the West German currency - the "Su Gyaw" - all de jure border controls ceased"

LOL. Maybe someone could change this nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:45, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Music related to the Berlin Wall[edit]

Tear Me Down - From the musical Hedwig and the Angry Inch - 1998

The song provides a brief history of the Berlin Wall and its importance as a symbol of the Cold War. The opening of the Wall and the Reunification of Germany is used a metaphor for crossing gender lines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:12C0:A126:D489:E308:961F:CB3C (talk) 02:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

We Didn't Start The Fire - Billy Joel - 1989

The song includes the lyric "Berlin" which directly refers to the 1961 Headline. It is defined in the song as the wall separating East and West Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 06:09, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no Cold War link in the "See Also" section[edit]

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zlin6248 (talkcontribs) 13:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC) 

Edit request on 23 January 2013[edit]

Premier Khrushchev gave the East German government permission to stop the flow of emigrants by closing its border for good. In just two weeks, the East German army, police force and volunteer construction workers had completed a makeshift barbed wire and concrete block wall–the Berlin Wall–that divided one side of the city from the other. Melinaa 42 (talk) 19:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[The History Channel website 1]

Not done: It looks like this information is already in the article. See the "Contruction begins" section RudolfRed (talk) 05:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 February 2013[edit]

Add a photo of a concrete sample coming from the wall: thumb|Concrete sample coming from Berliner wall.

Laurent06 (talk) 10:36, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Laurent06, please specify where you think this photo should be included. Many thanks, Zalunardo8 (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi Zalunardo8, the best place should be in "demolition" chapter.

"The Fall" -> "demolition" Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laurent06 (talkcontribs) 10:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done There were a lot of images in this section, so I moved them into galleries. -- Dianna (talk) 19:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request, correct the dates[edit]

Considering this is written in English, and not in German, the dates are entered in the incorrect format. for example today is March 7th, 2013. NOT 7 March 2013. all dates throughout this article should be corrected so they are less annoying, not to mention grammatically correct — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asdiajhgsadlkfjbh (talkcontribs) 20:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Asdiajhgsadlkfjbh, but that is the standard way the dates are written in English Wikipedia. Why, even your signature is dated 7 March 2013. Alandeus (talk) 09:09, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Kennedy speech[edit]

The following on the reaction of the Kennedy administration to the wall strikes me as as a couple of half-truths completely divorced from reality.

"In a speech on 26 July 1963, US President John F. Kennedy had acknowledged[43] that the United States could only hope to defend West Berliners and West Germans; to attempt to stand up for East Germans would result only in an embarrassing downfall. Accordingly, the administration made polite protests at length via the usual channels, but without fervour."

"Without fervour" seems especially bizarre. I've included a video of the speech, which is actually quite famous for its furvour. The only citation on the bizarre paragraph above [43] is a transcript of the speech. Since this is my first edit here, I'll ask somebody experienced here to modify the above paragraph, or I may come back in a week or so and do it myself. Smallbones(smalltalk) 13:22, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 July 2013[edit] (talk) 06:18, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

section: Media relating to the wall

Add new reference.

"The Berlin Wall is the protagonist of the song Period Piece (Standards, Lloyd Cole)"

song on Soundcloud


Not done: Looking at the lyrics, while it definitely is referencing the Berlin Wall I don't think it merits a mention in this article. The songs already listed are specifically and prominently mentioning the Berlin Wall. Listing every song which contains indirect references to the Wall would be an exceedingly long list of songs which wouldn't add anything to this article. --ElHef (Meep?) 06:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Original Part of the Berlin Wall 1989 Gift from Daimler - Benz AG to Bill Gates on February 8th 1996. At Microsoft Conference Center in Redmond, WA

Boscowall (talk) 22:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Walesa and Berlin Wall dominos[edit]

The description of the dominos used in the 20th Anniversary of the Fall of the Berlin Wall should include Lech Walesa. The organizers of the event had him push the first domino - Poland. This puts the collapse of the Wall into perspective and would give the reader a broader understanding of the events.

Janusz Duzinkiewicz — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaduzink (talkcontribs) 20:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2014[edit]

Scooter030 (talk) 08:10, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Done, placed in Images section of External links; recommendable images Alandeus (talk) 10:25, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Apparently already done by Alandeus. — {{U|Technical 13}} (tec) 12:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2014[edit]

Towards the bottom of this article under Music, I request that this entry be made: "Wall", a semi-autobiographical song by the rock band Steppenwolf. Singer John Kay was smuggled through the wall by his mother at a young age, describes the experience, and later the joy in seeing the wall come down. The song includes an excerpt from JFK's "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech. (talk) 15:45, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: Need a reliable source for the description you're requesting - I don't see a problem with adding this song as it is quite clearly about the Berlin Wall, but I don't know about the semi-autobiographical bit. Seeing as Kay's biography on Steppenwolf's official site describes him as immigrating to Canada in 1958 and construction on the Berlin Wall started 3 years later in 1961, I don't believe this is true. If you can provide a reliable source that says this is indeed what happened, will be happy to add in this autobiographical bit. Cannolis (talk) 16:25, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Link to a good picturegallery about the Berlin Wall. Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2014[edit]

Hello, I would like to add a link to a picturegallery about the Berlin Wall to this article.


Thomas Gade Toga1962 (talk) 10:28, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Those images are copyrighted and thus can't be used on Wikipedia. For more info please see the image usage policy. Stickee (talk) 11:10, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Cultural differences[edit]

There are cultural differences between East and West. However this article refers to none, merely opinion on reunification, an entirely different matter. As for Russian public knowledge of the history of the Soviet occupation of Germany, that does not belong in this article at all. Probably it would be better referencing Communist influence on modern Russia, or the degree of official censorship under Putin. (talk) 03:12, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

WestBank (Palestine) and Berlin[edit]

I think we should add some to this article about the wall dividing westbank — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 10:22, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

The Wall fell in 1990, not 1989[edit]

Although the wall was opened in 1989, its demolition did not actually begin on an official basis until June 1990. While one can make a good argument it ceased to exist as a symbol of division on 9 November 1989 the fact remains it was very much operational well into 1990. Checkpoint Charlie's inner station was functioning for example until Germany was reunified in October 1990. Thevideodrome (talk) 06:01, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

No, the "Fall of the Wall" means the end of the Wall as an effective barrier. True, the pieces were carried off physically mostly in early 1990 and I don't think any wall segments actually fell over. Alandeus (talk) 21:11, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Paraphrasing an earlier comment that I wrote when I reverted the original edit in the article - the wall ceased to exist as a barrier to entry in 1989. To say that it lasted until 1990 is in many ways like claiming that it is still there today just because certain sections remain standing. FFM784 (talk) 22:00, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I disagree because the wall was still patrolled and while new entry points were made and parts of the outer wall were chipped off, the Wall was not actually dismantled nor were the border checks removed until well into 1990. The Wall was still functional until June 13, 1990, it just no longer served the morbid purpose it did most of its existence. Prior to that point it's entirely possible East Germany could have re-closed the wall though of course highly unlikely because the zeitgeist had changed. Thevideodrome (talk) 09:49, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Berlin Wall history and victims of the Wall (Image)[edit]

I've just created a SVG image showing the relationship between the Berlin Wall generations and its victims. Feedbacks appreciated, thanks!

Berlin Wall

--Sara P.Bo (talk) 16:54, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Typo in 'The Fall' section[edit]

Fourth paragraph, last word in third sentence: ...allowing free travel across their common boarder, should be: ...allowing free travel across their common border


Done. Thank you.Charles (talk) 18:29, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2015[edit] (talk) 10:09, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 20:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)


I'm a little surprised to find nothing in this article about what happened to telecomms during this period. When I visited East Berlin in the early 80s the place was festooned with CB radio systems and prior to the CB era a lot of converted military radio gear had been used on frequency bands close to the official Radio Amateur frequencies. As a UK based Radio Pirate in the 70s and 80s, much of my radio work was with the city of Berlin and the DDR where many people used this radio network as a way of staying in touch with the west, or east dependent on their own location. I feel that this important period in modern communications history deserves a place in this fantastic article and call upon Wikipedians to research and deliver on this fascinating moment in social history. Andy. Yorkshire UK. Not an editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:53, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Berlin Wall. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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N Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 15:01, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

the Berlin wall cut the East from the West — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Defection attempts - Shoot to Kill[edit]

At present the section both says "The East German government issued shooting orders (Schießbefehl) to border guards dealing with defectors, though such orders are not the same as 'shoot to kill' orders" and that "East German police had received shoot-to-kill orders". Only one can be accurate! DrArsenal (talk) 23:10, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2015[edit]

Original: "In practice, the Wall served to prevent the massive emigration and defection that marked East Germany and the communist Eastern Bloc during the post-World War II period, until prevented."

Edited: "In practice, the Wall served to prevent the massive emigration and defection that marked East Germany and the communist Eastern Bloc during the post-World War II period."

OMIT: ", until prevented." Does not add meaning to the sentence. May be replaced optionally with ", until dismantled."

Regards, M (talk) 02:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done replaced it with an earlier "had" Cannolis (talk) 12:48, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Bowie Concert[edit]

User:Runner1928 has modified the text about David Bowie's concert to say that there were East Germans attending the concert. Given the location, I presume this was gathering near the wall on the Eastern side, but we need a reference to a reliable source. DrArsenal (talk) 09:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

This is complete. Runner1928 (talk) 11:36, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Is 'Wall' a proper noun that should be captialised?[edit]

Primergrey and I are disagreeing about whether most instances of "Wall" should be capitalized. I think in most instances it is used as a proper noun, short for "The Berlin Wall", while Primergrey thinks that virtually all instances should be in lower case. I think Primergrey accepts that some, very restricted, instances should be captialised, and I accept that some uses of the word 'wall' (eg 'inner wall') in the article are not proper nouns and should not be capitalized (I took care to be selective about which uses were capitalized).

But for the bulk, what is more relevant 1) MOS:GEOUNITS in general or 2) the exception at MOS:GEOUNITS - and, more generally, MOS:NAMECAPS? DrArsenal (talk) 11:58, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

The MOS is pretty clear on this, "Berlin Wall" is capitalized, "wall" is not. No matter the context, unless describing a Pink Floyd album. The City (of London) is an exception, not a representation of a set of exceptions. Hadrian's Wall, Western Wall and the Great Wall of China articles all reflect this. Primergrey (talk) 18:36, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, disagree. Certainly 'The City' is an exception, but where is the indication that it is the ONLY exception, which is what would be needed to make the case? It's no surprise to me that 'wall' is not captialised in an article about Hadrian's Wall. When I lived in Newcastle upon Tyne and Wallsend, if anybody had asked "where can I find the Wall", we would have been a bit baffled - what wall were they talking about? By contrast, go to Berlin, and ask "where can I find the Wall" and people know which wall you are talking about. The question comes down to the extent to which the noun is used in normal usage as a shorthand for the full proper noun. My suspicion is "The City" is less commonly used as shorthand for "The City of London" than "The Wall" is used as shorthand for the Berlin Wall (although there may be a difference between popular usage and usage in RS on this, because RS tend to have less of an assumption of where the communication is taking place than usage in conversation). And of course, there has been no answer on why MOS:NAMECAPS should not apply. DrArsenal (talk) 23:22, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

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