Talk:Beta Israel

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DNA Evidences[edit]

Does someone know if Beta Israel has some kind of heredity regards like modern Ashkenazim or Kaifeng? IIf not, given they time they've been there, it wouldn't be weird for Y-chromosomes or mythocondries to have disspeared, so only full DNA tests would be valid in order to make theories.--79.157.1.185 (talk) 13:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Not being learned in the secret handshakes that guarantee protection from instant wiki-reversion I won't change the actual article but just note here that the article brought in support for the 2012 genetic study does not say what the wikipedia article currently says that it says. The Wikpedia article says that "the Beta Israel have some distant Jewish ancestry, going back 2,000 years", the Reuters article brought as a source for such a claim does not say that but only politely shrugs its reportorial shoulders if forced to broach the subject.

To be sure, there's some strong likelihood that some Beta Israel (and perhaps a billion other people) have some Jewish ancestry and that in the case of the Beta Israel this ancestry might have had some influence on the direction their Judaized culture took but the Reuters article does not say that the study has brought evidence for this claim. I (Moshe Rudner) discuss the Beta Israel in my own work on Exotic Jewish History (www.exoticjewishhistory.com) and was at an unfortunate loss to find strong evidence for any sort of strong genetic basis for the popular claim that they are predominantly descended from ancient Jews. Of course studies to date may have been going about this the wrong way and, by most metrics that concern people it doesn't matter anyhow (for most practical reasons they are now considered to be Jews by more or less everyone, regardless of whether they descend from ancient Jews or not), but the Wikipedia article ought to be more correct about what many readers of this piece have come here to find out.

I would suggest, Mr. Rudner, that you have a read of the article I cited in the DNA section of this entry on Beta Israel, by Pagani, L., et al., "Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences on the Ethiopian Gene Pool," The American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 91 (July 13, 2012): pp. 83-96. It really does clarify and correct the earlier DNA studies you looked at, and is of fundamental importance. It turns out that the entire Ethiopian people as presently constituted are a highly diverse genetic group, with some 40 to 50% showing genetic similarities to populations in Egypt-Israel-Syria stemming from massive admixtures about 3,000 years ago. So studies showing the closeness of Beta Israel to other Ethiopians do not refute the Beta Israel claims of antiquity and Jewish origins at all. There really may have been an emigration, or series of emigrations as Beta Israel traditions assert, of the tribe of Dan and other Jewish tribes then existing, into Ethiopia between 3,300 to 2,700 years ago (the study authors give a range of 3,000 years ago +/- 300 years).110.22.140.136 (talk) 23:33, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Intermarriage with non-Ethiopians[edit]

I'm going to make edits to the discussion of intermarriage between Ethiopians and non-Ethiopians in the section "Ethiopian Jews in Israel". Because it would be hard to fit the explanation for my changes in a brief edit summary, I'm putting the explanation here. The last paragraph of that section reads: "Despite progress, Ethiopian Jews have so far largely failed to assimilate into Israeli-Jewish society. They remain, on average, on a lower economic and educational level than average Israelis. Also, while marriages between Jews of different backgrounds are very common in Israel, Ethiopians have largely resisted intermarriage. According to a 2009 study, 90% of Ethiopian-Israelis – 93% of men and 85% of women, avoid marrying non-Ethiopians.[124] A 2011 study showed that only 13% of high school students of Ethiopian origin felt "fully Israeli"." That gives the impression that the rates of intermarriage are low due to Ethiopian opposition to integration and the sentiments/actions of non-Ethiopian Israelis plays no part. When one actually reads the reference, it doesn't really say that. The word "resist" comes from the headline, not the article itself. The statistics on Ethiopian Israelis marrying within their community doesn't explain whether they are reluctant to marry outside their ethnic group or others are reluctant to marry or both (or some other explanation). In fact, the article goes on to note that 57% of Israelis say it is unacceptable for their daughter to marry an Ethiopian and 39% say it would be unacceptable for their son to marry an Ethiopian. The article also quotes Avi Masfin saying there are barriers to intermarriage among both Israeli society generally and the Ethiopian community. The text in our Wikipedia, therefore, gives a one-sided view in attributing low intermarriage rates only to the Ethiopian resistance. I'm making edits to better reflect the source article. --JamesAM (talk) 19:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello @JamesAM: I realize we're years into this article but I'm just finding/editing it. I have a very serious question to you: is your work here academic or do you have 1st hand experience living in Israel? Reason being, there is no "average Israeli". It is by all standards a very segmented and segregated society. On paper the vast majority of Haredi/Hassidim are below the poverty line and do not work. Yet they receive donations/assistance so the men can devote themselves to lifelong study/making children. Also, the Bedu are still semi-nomadic with little income above board (i.e. taxable) and many do not work. I don't take issue with your assessment that the Beta Israel are discriminated against/segregated/still have challenges integrating. But I think saying they remain "on average, on a lower economic and educational level" is misleading. Also, the generation born in Israel are actually higher ranking educationally (I don't have the stats but have seen/heard them several times). Trinacrialucente (talk) 05:15, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
You're misreading my comment. I didn't add the "average Israeli" sentence. That sentence predated my edit. I was simply quoting the full paragraph to show the full context of the prior version's discussion of intermarriage. Essentially, I felt the prior version misrepresented the article that was the source for inter-marriage statistics. The Wikipedia article tried to attribute low intermarriage rates to attitudes of Ethiopian-Israelis, but the source article itself seems to attribute the intermarriage rates to the larger society as well. I'm not an academic in the field of Israeli culture. Wikipedia is supposed to have citations to support its factual assertions. It's not supposed to be based on original, unpublished research. When I saw that the discussion of intermarriage didn't match the source article, I fixed it and explained my change. I didn't know anything about the accuracy of the economic discussion, so I simply left that part alone. I have no problem with you improving the article to fix whatever is factually wrong with it. --JamesAM (talk) 01:02, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Understood. I was just quoting from your text here on this talk page (not from the article). Trinacrialucente (talk) 19:42, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Needs to be added to article on going racial discrimination just like Balitimore[edit]

needs to be added to article--Inayity (talk) 17:25, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Beta Israel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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N Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 02:29, 8 January 2016 (UTC)