Talk:Biblical Magi

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Which movie of Ben-Hur?[edit]

From the article: "In the movie Ben-Hur, Balthasar is an old man who goes back to Palestine to see the former child Jesus become an adult."

Which movie of Ben-Hur? There were several. -- Jmabel 19:08, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

Maybe it is in the novel, but I don't remember the details. It certainly is in the Charlton Heston version. -- Error 00:49, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Isn't a characterization of the Christian mythology of Balthasar that references Ben-Hur ajust a little... I'm looking for the tactful word... help me here... The development of the details of the Three Wise Men from the merest hint in the N.T. is actually a serious and interesting chapter of the history of ideas and of iconography. ---Wetman 11:29, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

dubious addition[edit]

Someone recently added to the article "believed to be the very bright Jupiter-Saturn conjunction)". Believed by whom? By the wise men? By the author of the Bible story? By some random group of Christians? There may be some relevant individual who holds this belief, but I son't know who. Most scientists -- those who would study a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction -- presumably reject the historicity of the account of the Wise Men visiting the infant Jesus. Unless someone turns this into something clearer within 48 hours, I intend simply to delete it. -- Jmabel (17:34 PDT, Sep 25, 2004; failed to timestamp this when I wrote it)

48 hours have passed, no clarification, I'm removing it. -- Jmabel 02:36, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

Justified. Part of the long tradition for establishing a "historicity" of all the Nativity events— a chronicle that just can't be neutrally discussed at Wikipedia. --Wetman 11:29, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)


NPOV and Cleanup labels[edit]

These have been applied recently to this article (and to others) by User:CheeseDreams. That user's actual contributions to this entry may be assessed at the Page History. --Wetman 23:44, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What an amazingly trivial matter to raise a formal dispute over. Assuming, of course, that is what he/she is disputing. User:CheeseDreams, would you please clarify here on the talk page exactly what you are disputing, or I will feel free simply to remove those labels. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:52, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

The {} sign/s[edit]

As noted by User:Wetman and User:Jmabel above, the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} were placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning. They have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 09:09, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Homework[edit]

Some1 plz help me w/ these questions!

1.What is the feast day of the 3 kings called?

(maybe: Epiphany  ??)
  • Precisely -- Jmabel | Talk 00:21, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

2.What does this word mean? (?)

  • Use your dictionary -- Jmabel | Talk 00:21, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

3. What are the names of the three kings? (?)

4.Name their other titles (plz). (?)

  • Not sure what you have in mind. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:21, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

5.Name the town where this feast took place. (?)

  • There is no one town where the Feast of Epiphany takes place. It is the name of a holiday, not of a particular banquet. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:21, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

duplication[edit]

This page duplicates Magus extensively. --Wahoofive 22:20, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That would make sense. --Wetman 20:20, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Magi as Kings[edit]

"This is likely linked to Old Testament prophesies that have the messiah being worshipped by kings." I moved this here: if there is a relevant O.T. prophecy, it should be noted explicitly, along with the the unexpected circumstance that the author of Matthew, whose narrative is constructed to link one OT "prophecy" concerning the messiah with another, missed such a rich opportunity, if the visitors were indeed expected to be kings. --Wetman 20:33, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to Brown's The Birth of the Messiah the verses commonly mentioned as being linked are Isaiah 60:3, Psalm 72:10, and Psalm 68:29. The issue of why Matthew adds so few OT references to the Magi story is one that is discussed among scholars. The main focus of this debate is on Numbers 24:17, which pretty clearly predicts a star but is also unquoted by Matthew. One view, supported by Schweizer, is that the author of Matthew never adapted the narrative to fit OT quotations, rather he adapted the quotations to fit his narrative. Matthew would have been more likely to make up a quotation that referred to magi than turn the people he believed were magi into kings. Brown feels that OT references were left out because the author of Matthew himself felt the story was somewhat incredible and doubted the accuracy of his material. C.S. Mann believes that Matthew did not want to associate astrology with the word of God.
The statement that "alternate traditions have as little as two and as many as twelve visiting Jesus" also comes straight from Brown, though he does not mention which traditions. - SimonP 21:13, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
I hope you'll agree it was right to remove the statement: If the author of Matthew's intention was that the verses in Isaiah and Psalms should have been recognized by hearers of his narrative, then state so. Matthew's narrative is a string of fulfilled prophecies; scholars' discussion how this has come about might be summarized in a subsection. If the issue of why Matthew adds no explicit references to the Magi story is one that is discussed among scholars, a summary of the discussion is encyclopediable. If Brown's The Birth of the Messiah is a reference that comes up in Discussion, why not enter it among References or Sources or Further reading? Indeed the "Star prophecy" of Numbers 24:17 was not mentioned in Greek Matthew: can you see any political reason why it might not have been wise to make it explicit? --Wetman 22:05, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No I don't think it was right to remove the statement, but it seems to have been unclear. No one I have read believes that Matthew was indirectly referencing Psalms and Isaiah. The idea that the magi were kings only arose sometime after the Gospel was written. There is no evidence that the author of Matthew thought that the magi were kings. The sentence does not mean that "Isaiah and Psalms should have been recognized by hearers of his narrative" as the author of Matthew did not see any links to the OT as he did not consider the magi to be kings. It means that later readers, who were perhaps less familiar with what the word magi meant and were more willing to abandon realism, made the magi into kings to fit with the OT. - SimonP 22:26, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
SimonP has also returned to the article two fragments of fluff that he seems to admire: This is likley linked to Old Testament prophesies that have the messiah being worshipped by kings in Isaiah 60:3, Psalm 72:10, and Psalm 68:29. Early readers reinterpreted Matthew in light of these prophecies and elevated the magi to kings. "Likely linked" by SimonP apparently, but not by the author of Matthew it would seem, as he has stated already. Who is saying this link is "likely"? "Early readers" is the intellectual equivalent of "some", so often a disguise for ignorance or laziness, is it not? If the author of Matthew was not referencing Psalms and Isaiah, then Simon P's instancing of them is irrelevant. In addition, the reader of Wikipedia is still treated to the following owlish proposition: "Alternate traditions have as little as two and as many as twelve visiting Jesus." "Alternate traditions"! Scarcely an improvement, but SimonP must have it so.
--Wetman 23:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Catalan traditions[edit]

Some of the so-called "Catalan traditions" are followed in the whole Spain. Besides, it got not sense quoting Ibi's Cabalgata into this point, since it does not belong to Catalonia. You cannot made a separate point quoting things that don't belong there...

Lamb Novel References[edit]

Christopher Moore bases his novel, Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal, around Christ's search for the three Magi. This could be used as a reference in art if concensus sees fit.