Talk:Black people

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Stock post message.svg To-do list for Black people: edit·history·watch·refresh· Updated 2020-09-23

  • Find and add citations to reliable sources.
  • Remove unverifiable material and original research.
  • Show a multi dimensional view of Black people across the world, not merely an American perspective.
  • Remove "undue weight" per WP:CSB and WP:NPOV.
  • Give more information on the diversity of peoples within African, e.g. Khoisan, Bantu, Pygmy, etc.
  • Remove the comment about underestimation of strength of Black men - out of context and contributes to racist stereotypes
Priority 2


Change X to Y: Change from X “ It is mostly used for people of Sub-Saharan African descent and the indigenous peoples of Oceania.”

Change to Y: “It is mostly used for people of Sub-Saharan African descent and the indigenous peoples of India, Southeast Asia and Oceania.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thegenuinehistorian (talkcontribs) 07:50, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

India and Pakistan[edit]

Here are some references to the black construct in India/Pakistan that I added: Pakistan:

  • William Ackah, Pan-Africanism (1999), books.google.com/books?isbn=1840143754, p. 98:"A fascinating insight the programme revealed was that in being rejected by Pakistan, these black Pakistanis sought to look for their identity elsewhere. Their search took them not automatically to Africa the place of their origins, but to the fashion and statements and music of michael Jackson."
  • National Institute of Folk and Traditional Heritage, Folk Heritage of Pakistan (1977), p. 78, books.google.com/books?id=TGZWAAAAMAAJ:"Most people outside Pakistan, Mr. Mufti explained, do not know that there are black Pakistanis and none was particularly delighted with the reception this group enjoyed."
  • The Herald, Volume 36, Issues 10-12, p. 113-114 (2005), books.google.com/books?id=_xwTAQAAMAAJ:"Others arrived when the Sultanate of Oman, having captured Zanzibar in eastern... Rather than discouraging prejudice, the authorities have abetted it by remaining silent on the existence of black Pakistanis...positions which reflects an unabating fear of black people by mainstream society...Sheedi's oral history of black Pakistanis which relies for the most part on anecdotal accounts...I proudly say that I'm Baloch. Because when someone from my community calls me a sheedi, they're actually calling me a 'nigger'. Sheedi also knows that the term is derogatory. But unlike Danish, he is determined to disregard racism and build a community instead. Although religion and musical spirituality unite the black community, Sheedi does not think that it's enough. For that reason, he is on a quest to create a physic space for the sheedis to claim as their own."

India:

  • Alice Albinia, Empires of the Indus (2010), books.google.com/books?isbn=0393063224, p.50:"it is possible that one of the effects of a hundred years of British rule was the decline in status of black people in India. This deterioration is evident in the way the word 'Sheedi' – which has no plain etymology in Arabic or any Indian language -was interpreted over the centuries..."
  • Ababu Minda Yimene, An African Indian Community in Hyderabad:Siddi Identity, Its Maintenance (2004), p. 211, books.google.com/books?isbn=3865372066: 'Mr. Hussein paints his face black and wears Siddi clothes during his performance so that no one knows that he is an Indian. The Siddi found his statements ludricious because they consider him as black as any Siddi..."

p. 170:"Popularly known as Siddis, these one time warriors represent Black Power in Hyderabad."

p.200:"The Siddi of Hyderabad are comfortable calling themselves Negroes and are addressed as such both in private and public..."

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Andajara120000 (talkcontribs) 04:31, 5 January 2014‎ (UTC)

Albinia could add even more. FTIIIOhfive (talk) 03:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Capitalization[edit]

The Associated Press has changed its writing style to capitalize the "b" in Black.

The change conveys “an essential and shared sense of history, identity and community among people who identify as Black, including those in the African diaspora and within Africa,” John Daniszewski, AP’s vice president of standards, said in a blog post Friday. “The lowercase black is a color, not a person.”

The Los Angeles Times, USA Today and NBC News last week embraced capitalization, and the National Association of Black Journalists urged other news organizations to follow. (Source: https://apnews.com/71386b46dbff8190e71493a763e8f45a).

This is reflective of a major shift which has been years in the making and should be reflected on this page. --Xicanx (talk) 21:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Those are all American sources. This is a global encyclopaedia. We need to note what sources outside the USA are doing. HiLo48 (talk) 02:36, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
See ongoing discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Proposed update to MOSCAPS regarding racial terms. –Sangdeboeuf (talk) 17:08, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Nope. You are correct that this is a trend, but it is a counter grammatical one that we should not follow. The AP and the NYT made clear in their announcment that their decision was based on political considerations--considerations that don't apply here. The Oxford English Dictionary has nothing on capitalizing "black." [1]. Black is a color, but it used to be an offensive term to refer to people of African origins. It describes a physical trait, skin color. Yes, a trait that is shared by people of African ancestry. But that does not convert it into a proper noun. The same goes for "white," which is never capitalized. And it's also worth noting that the term "yellow" to describe people of Asian descent or ethnicity based on skin color is still regarded as a derisive slur. "Black" and "white" have mainstream acceptance as non-racially offensive in modern times, but that does not change the fundamentals of grammar. Ungrammatical capitalization has long been used to make political statements or draw focus to political trends. Certain authors were accused of anti-semitism for writing "Jewish" in lowercase as "jewish" consistently.In sum, the reasoning by these news outlets is ridiculous and historically/gramatically ignorant, and we are not required to adhere to their style guides. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 16:30, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Strong[edit]

[2]

My edit was reverted. Instead of reverting again, I am starting a talk page discussion. Please discuss, rather than reverting again. Benjamin (talk) 05:56, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

@Bacondrum and Liz: I don't understand why you deleted Benjaminikuta's comment from the talk page. @Benjaminikuta: I think, if you rephrase your contribution and connect it to the context, it might improve the article. Your original phrasing is really confusing, at least I had to look at the LA article to understand what you wanted so say. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:45, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Because a claim like that is racist and not relevant to this article. Bacondrum (talk) 08:17, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
The claim is based on an article from a mainstream newspaper. It says that many people in the US perceive black people as strong and threatening. While that perception is racist or caused by racism, the article is not. --Rsk6400 (talk) 09:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. I had originally phrased it: "People tend to overestimate how big and strong black men are.", but I'm indifferent to the exact wording, as long as it clearly identifies the misconception. How would you phrase it? Benjamin (talk) 09:17, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps: "According to studies in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, US residents consistently overestimate the size, physical strength, and formidability of young Black men." Benjamin (talk) 09:51, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
I didn't check all details, but I can say that's neither racist nor irrelevant nor confusing. --Rsk6400 (talk) 17:24, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
You need to phrase it carefully, for example when I first saw the initial comment about this, the comment read like a racist jeer. The wording of your second suggestion is much clearer. And I'd suggest using stronger sourcing than a news report about a single study for a claim like that, perhaps the original study (if it has been subject to peer review), it may have been published in a journal. I know academics like Bell Hooks have written about this phenomenon at length. Bacondrum (talk) 21:00, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Yes, it looked like the racist chatter I see on other talk pages the way it was originally phrased. Liz Read! Talk! 21:21, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
@Bacondrum: bell hooks deliberately keeps her pen name uncapitalized. Just a thing you might want to be aware of. :) IHateAccounts (talk) 22:54, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for assuming bad faith... = / Benjamin (talk) 01:21, 28 October 2020 (UTC)