Talk:Hardcore Holly

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Good article Hardcore Holly has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
March 7, 2009 Good article nominee Listed

Went easy?[edit]

Had any of you heard that Bart Gunn went easy on Holly in the Brawl For All, and Holly went nuts at him afterwards?:OD(Halbared 09:34, 16 April 2006 (UTC))

No but it soudns believeable. Hollywoodd 01:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kperfekt722 (talkcontribs)

Lesnar[edit]

There should be a reference to the fact that Lesnar broke his neck because he was sandbagging him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.17.33.116 (talk) 21:51, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Unreferenced statements[edit]

Moved from the article:

Holly has gained something of a reputation as a bully due to his stiff in-ring style by which he has injured wrestlers to the degree that they must take time off, such as with former WWE employee Matt Morgan and following unstaged incidents, such as his treatment of Tough Enough III contestant Matt Cappotelli and his vindictive attack on the face of René Duprée during a match as punishment after Dupree got into a traffic accident with Holly's rental car and neglected to own up to it, resulting in monetary damages and legal issues for Holly. Some believe him to be a real life "enforcer" used by Vince McMahon to punish poor behavior on the part of young wrestlers. He is also one of the leaders of the Wrestler's Court with John Bradshaw Layfield, responsible for in-house policing of wrestlers and rumored hazing. While some fans were highly critical of Holly's actions, others defended his actions as the typical means of conflict resolution within the wrestling industry, which is not unionized and poorly regulated and therefore lacks conventional mechanisms for addressing grievances.

I don't see anything in the references/external links that really supports this, unless you want to look at some forum posts by random fans. Also, please note that its much better to say "This person" or "This organization" believes, instead of saying "Some" believe -- its important to attribute points of view to their sources. I'd also question whether or not any of this belongs in a section on his personal life, since it appears to all be wrestling related. .:.Jareth.:. babelfish 13:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I do think that some mention of the incident with Bob Holly and Matt Cappotelli should be mentioned as Bob Holly left the man beaten and bloodied on national television. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.49.157.11 (talk) 19:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Current status[edit]

Okay, so basically the word is that Holly is in rehab for substance addiction. Problem is...on the WWE list of employees article, it says in rehab without any source. Here, whenever somebody tries to edit it in, also without a source, it keeps getting removed. Shouldn't it also be removed from the roster page for not being sourced? Or are there some different kinda policy here? --Kaizer13 (talk) 05:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Wrestling school[edit]

On the recently released shoot interview with RFVideo, Bob claimed that he does not run a wrestling school, nor is he married anymore. Any way this can be used as a reliable source? The shoot interview, that is. --81.191.27.34 (talk) 19:51, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Return to WWE?[edit]

According to PWMania. WWE have showed some interested in bringing back former superstar Bob Hardcore Holly and former DX member Badass Billy Gunn as just a tag team. They want former superstars they can get over and bill as tough old veterans aganist some of the new younger talent. Both are real-life good friends. As apparently Sopp pitched the idea to John Laurinaitis.

I read it at lordsofpain. Hold any truth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.48.114.20 (talk) 21:22, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Neither lordsofpain nor PWMania are reliable sources, so it won't be added to the article. ♥NiciVampireHeart♥ 23:15, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Haha, I guess they were right when they said WWE were talking about big name returns. --Kaizer13 (talk) 01:40, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

YouShoot interview[edit]

after watching his YouShoot interview where he answers alot of the things that have been said about him... like the Rene Dupree incident and other things like the Brock Lesnar powerbomb and that sort of stuff... he explains all of it in detail and how the powerbomb was in fact botched by them both and Lesnar rang him up at hospital to see if he's ok and they were actually friends and it was a mistake... after watching the interview alot of the stuff written on this page is only conjecture and therefore is not proven fact so should it be written that he "broke kayfabe" and all this stuff if it isn't proven? just a thought people should check the interview out... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.183.244 (talk) 19:25, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Not the champ[edit]

Bob Holly was not the Intercontinental Champion. WWE's website clearly lists that due to the controversial match between Jarrett and Holly, Jarrett was stripped of the title. How could he have been stripped of the championship if Holly had won it in the match? It's pretty straightforward: Jarrett didn't lost the title to Holly. He lost the title because of the controversy, but it didn't go to Holly. Instead it went to no one, and they had another match to determine the champion.

Moreoever, Wikipedia's own page for the List of WWE Intercontinental Champions doesn't have Holly as being champion, not even as an unofficial/unrecognised by WWE reign like in the case of some of Moolah's Women's Champion reigns or some of the early United States Championship reigns. Now you can't have one page say he held the title, and one page say he didn't. That ruins the credability of both. Also, on the talk page for the list of Intercontinental Champions, TJ Spyke brings up the point, and prevails, about not allowing Holly's "reign" to be included due to the fact that "WWE doesn't consider him a former champ." 76.29.170.69 (talk) 10:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, upon further review of the sources (numbers 4 and 5), both make it fairly clear that it wasn't a title reign. One source(4) even points out that although he pinned Jarrett, "because Jarrett's foot was on the ropes, the title was held up," meaning no one was delcared the champion. And in the other source (5), it says that Holly was set up for a "seeming" title run, but the win was overruled and the title was vacant.76.29.170.69 (talk) 13:24, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

For posterity's sake[edit]

Blah, blah, blah


For the record, the section above presents my reasoning for the removal of the information, to which there was only one reply that was along the lines of "Stop bitching about it. He was the champ. Proof? My fist." And that 'rebuttal' was removed by another user on the basis of bad faith/personal attack. I presented the reasonings and you did not respond to them Vampire. 67.181.76.194 (talk) 11:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

"Bitching", you say? Now, there was no need for a practical demonstration there. --84.202.160.33 (talk) 19:57, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

NASCAR[edit]

On his RF Shoot interview (and possibly his new book), he talks about NASCAR in the sense that he actually drove in the sport. Are there any sources which support this? The article currently mentions fleetingly that his NASCAR driver gimmick was just that—a gimmick, with no mention of an actual motor racing career. Needs the real story. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:38, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I wandered over here today (surfing wrestler articles) and I noticed that, despite being stated in the 1st sentence of the lead that he was a former driver, absolutely nothing further on this (a racing career) is present in the article. Pretty strange for a "good article". I'd always assumed this was merely a gimmick, and, pending addition of any substantial content, I am going to boldly remove this from the lead as wholly unsupported (& likely non-notable) in the article text... Roberticus talk 20:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. While there are cases to be made for either name, it appears his WP:STAGENAME is the WP:COMMONNAME. --BDD (talk) 18:57, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Bob HollyHardcore Holly – Howard was known professionally as "Hardcore Holly", not "Bob Holly". To the best of my knowledge, he has never performed as "Bob Holly". Having the article at Bob Holly is a hybrid of his real name and his professional name, which is potentially misleading and confusing. This will allow far more direct linking. McPhail (talk) 15:56, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Support as nominator. McPhail (talk) 15:58, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Support I think that Hardciore Holly is his common name. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 16:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Support He was known as Hardcore Holly to wrestling fans for a decade (1999–2009), if not longer. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:01, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Support per everyone else.oknazevad (talk) 18:11, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose He's been Bob Holly since 1988 (aside from briefly being Thurman "Sparky" Plugg in 1994), whether his nickname was "Spark Plugg", "Bombastic Bob" or "Hardcore". Commentators didn't try to pretend his "real" first name wasn't Bob. Not the same as say, Jamal becoming Umaga or Aaron Stevens becoming Damien Sandow. Just a nickname, even though a common ringname. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:57, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
And in case you need an official WWE story: "Thurman “Sparky” Plugg debuted in the 1994 Royal Rumble Match as a stock car driver taking a break from the racetrack to grapple with WWE Superstars. The moniker was soon abandoned in favor of a name he would retain for the remainder of his WWE tenure: Bob Holly." InedibleHulk (talk) 22:57, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
Hulk, if you would read downwards in that official WWE bio you cited, When that partnership crumbled, Holly re-emerged ... Changing his name to Hardcore Holly, the nasty brawler held the title on six occasions and established his on-screen persona as one of the toughest men in WWE — a fact the locker room was already well familiar with ... ... Lesnar slammed Holly onto the canvas, breaking Hardcore’s neck. Starship.paint (talk) 10:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
I did read that, and also watched his career on TV. The name changed in the way a person changes clothes. "Hardcore" was an addition, just like "Bombastic", not a replacement. The nickname got more focus than many because he was basically carrying the new Hardcore division, but he was still Bob Holly, and Jim Ross was never shy about mentioning it. When a source appears to contradict itself, there's often an easy explanation. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:37, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. While he was famous as "Hardcore" Holly, that was really just one gimmick, throughout which the commentators would still refer to him as "Bob Holly" or "Bob 'Hardcore' Holly". — Richard BB 07:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose- Even while going by Hardcore Holly, he was called "Bob" by everybody. His full name is definitely his most common name. Feedback 18:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Comment - I'd have to disagree with the claims that he is as well known as "Bob Holly" as he is as "Hardcore Holly". He was always announced to the ring as Hardcore Holly, listed on WWE.com's roster page as Hardcore Holly (including in his current alumni page), was named Hardcore Holly in video games, toys and other merchandise, and even had "Hardcore Holly" written on his shorts. By the same logic, Triple H should be moved to Hunter Hearst Helmsley since that's his character's full name and he's still regularly referred to as "Hunter". Going by WP:COMMONNAME, Hardcore Holly is the logical page title. McPhail (talk) 19:40, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Decent point, quite similar. Though the transformation from "Hunter Hearat Helmsley" to "Triple H" is more drastic than slapping a nickname on a surname. The "Holly" part instantly invokes his first name (like Bulldog Brown/Brower, Crusher Blackwell/Lisowski or Whipper Watson/Wilson), while with Triple H and Scotty 2 Hotty, the origins are more of a riddle (albeit simple ones). Does that make sense? InedibleHulk (talk) 06:49, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
  • Support - while his kayfabe real name (odd as that sounds) has been Bob Holly for quite some time, his commonname is almost certainly Hardcore Holly. As McPhail points out this is a similar case to Triple H, who regularly is/was called "Hunter", but achieved most success and exposure under the Triple H moniker.LM2000 (talk) 21:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Support - there is no doubt his ring name was Bob "Hardcore" Holly, but as per McPhail's and LM2000's arguments, "Hardcore Holly" is the common name here, not "Bob Holly". WWE website naming him as Hardcore Holly is a plus. Other evidence: google search - "Hardcore Holly" - 595,000 results, "Bob Holly" - 199,000 results. Google News - "Hardcore Holly" - 28 results, "Bob Holly" - 10 results. Google Images - "Hardcore Holly" - 109,000 results, "Bob Holly" - 56,100 results. Starship.paint (talk) 10:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Google results must be taken with a large pinch of salt. It counts almost everything, including absolute garbage (News Archives are admittedly better). The guess it displays at the top of the results is often off by tens of thousands (or more) compared to the number you get by going to the last page and multiplying by ten (before even subtracting thousands of duplicates). Also a clear bias in that "Hardcore Holly" came about in 1999, around the same the Internet started getting big. We didn't have thousands of TV reports, news recycling and social media opinions in his pure Bob Holly days. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:01, July 8, 2013 (UTC)
Even comparing our own numbers, I get "about 6,180,000 results" for Hardcore Holly (verbatim). That's a tad more than 595,000. Our image results match up, at 109,000. But my list ends at Page 42. 42 x 20 = 840 (or 108,160 less than advertised). And many of those aren't pictures of Holly, or even contain the words. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:05, July 8, 2013 (UTC)
  • Support - Per Hardcore Holly being his WP:COMMONNAME as he was most known and billed as Hardcore Holly for 10 years, Bob Holly was always a secondary name like Hunter. He has a clear majority in google hits per Starship.paint's point above. STATic message me! 15:02, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment Let's not forget about his time on WWF Tough Enough, from which he received a fair bit of "mainstream" exposure (including kicking Matt Cappotelli's ass, which went kind of viral), as Bob. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:52, July 6, 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment Honestly, would everyone be satisfied with Bob "Hardcore" Holly instead? Seems most recognizable to me now. Starship.paint (talk) 22:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't support this for two reasons - he was rarely, if ever, referred to as "Bob "Hardcore" Holly", so this is creating a new name for him, and it wouldn't support direct linking. I'd say this name wouldn't comply with the policies on conciseness, consistency and naturalness set out at WP:NAME. McPhail (talk) 11:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
      • That's a poor interim solution, and not a good one. WP rarely has article names with quotes in between, and as McPhail pointed out, Bob "Hardcore" Holly is probably less common than either Bob Holly or Hardcore Holly. After all, we don't have articles named Steve "Sting" Borden, Jason "Christian" Reso, Mark "Undertaker" Calaway or Adam "Edge" Copeland, etc. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:54, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
        I'd just like to point out that Steve "Sting" Borden, Jason "Christian" Reso etc. are not really relevant examples given that none of them were well known under Steve Borden or Jason Reso while Holly was well known as both Bob and Hardcore. Starship.paint (talk) 02:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
No sir, I also don't like it. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:46, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment His autobiography is titled "The Hardcore Truth: The Bob Holly Story". Mike Tenay told me that, during his TNA return, as Bob Holly (though I see I also could have just read this biography article). InedibleHulk (talk) 07:46, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
    Good point, but I'd just like to point out that on the cover, the Hardcore word is the largest while the Bob Holly words are not as prominent. Starship.paint (talk) 02:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, and I do not think his own autobiography is a bases on what we call him on Wikipedia, it's a prevalence in reliable sources. STATic message me! 03:28, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Superstar" Bob Howard[edit]

According to Slam! Sports (typically a reliable source), Holly used this ring name early in his career. Last week, however, Holly gave an interview with Solomonster Sounds Off, in which he said this is patently untrue (http://solomonster.podbean.com/mf/web/bgtquu/solomonster455-HOLLY.mp3 at the 46–47 minute mark). I have removed this content from the article. 185.54.163.177 (talk) 03:22, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

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