Talk:Bob Miller (baseball, born 1939)

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Former good article nominee Bob Miller (baseball, born 1939) was a Sports and recreation good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
October 21, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on October 5, 2008.

Bob Miller (1957–1974 pitcher) GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bob Miller (1957–1974 pitcher)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Naming policy
  • I'm not sure this is really part of the GA process, but does the disambiguation fit in with approved naming policy? I normally edit football (soccer) articles, and it wouldn't fit in there. However, the baseball project may have a different disambiguation, especially where positions (particularly pitcher) are more fixed. Reply: There were four major league baseball players named Bob Miller, three of them (including this one) who were pitching in the major leagues at around the same and overlapping with each other for a few seasons. I didn't name these articles, but the unique factors relating to these players is presumably what led to this unusual article name.
Lead
  • "(February 18, 1939 in St. Louis, Missouri as Robert Lane Gemeinweiser – August 6, 1993 in Rancho Bernardo, California)" rmv placenames per WP:DATE. - Done
  • The lead doesn't tell us anything of what he did in his career, or his ability as a pitcher. - Done a greater overview of his career was added to the lead, including a description of his skills.
Cardinals
  • 1960 and 1961 only get one line. Can you expand them? - Done further details were added about each season
Mets
  • You use Mets four times in three sentences. I would be tempted to change at least one though maintain clarity. One change could be "team manager Casey Stengel" - Done reduced repetition on a repeated basis of the word "Mets" where it appeared multiple times.
  • "In losing his first 12 decisions with the Mets," What's a decision? - Done wikilinked to decision (baseball) to explain this statistic. If this were stated that "he lost his first 12 games of the season", this could be interpreted as his losing all of these games. In certain circumstances, as when the team regains or loses a lead after Miller left the game, he would be credited with a "no decision".
Dodgers
  • Only two paragraphs for five sentences. It doesn't seem balanced. Have you any more info to expand this section? - Done the section has been expanded, with more details describing each season.
  • "His 74 appearances in 1964 were the most of any pitcher in the National League that season." Why is this away from the rest of the 1964 information. - Done Details re 1964 season have all been combined into a single paragraph
  • "In the 1966 World Series, Miller appeared in the first game, coming in in the fifth" Though not gramatically wrong, "coming in in" is quite cumbersome. Try and reword it to avoid the clumsy but correct repetition of "in". - Done recast to eliminate awkward wording
  • "In the 1966 World Series, Miller appeared in the first game, coming in in the fifth and pitching three innings in relief after starter Don Drysdale gave up for runs and lasted only two innings, in a series in which the Baltimore Orioles swept the Dodgers in four games." A long and difficult sentence to navigate. Either re-word it or consider breaking it up. - Done recast to clarify
Twins
  • "between two teams that had faced each other in the 1965 World Series." Is there any significance in this fact? - Done Not directly relevant, and removed.
1970
  • How come he was traded twice during the season? - Reply There was no reason to be traded three times, it just ended up that way.
1971
  • "The Padres were stuck in the cellar" Jargon. I would change this. - Done Reworded and source added to support the relative positions of each team in the trade.
Pirates
  • Very short on information.
Additional info
  • Do you know anything of Miller's personal life? At the moment this only deals with his career. Done - not much is available, but I have added some and will add more
  • Some of the baseball career is short of info.
  • Can you add what sort of pitcher he was? - Done most of this was added in the lead
Career statistics
  • I would be better to break down season-by-season rather than have one amalgamated breakdown.
MOS
  • No need to wikilink dates any more. - Done dates unlinked
  • I'm not sure of the structure. I think his playing career should be all under one level two heading, with level three sub-sections for each club / season. Done
  • Scores and playing records should use endashes, e.g. 11–3, per WP:DASH. - Done all dashes changed
  • Try and avoid one sentence paragraphs. - Done Almost all such paragraphs have been expanded.

There's quite a bit to do or expand upon. But I'll put it on hold for your comments and improvements. Peanut4 (talk) 19:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to butt in here (I saw this from Peanut4's contribs...), but I feel that this article badly needs a copyedit. Most of its paragraph are one- or two-sentence one liners, the prose is very choppy. Maxim(talk) 20:33, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Second review[edit]

Lead
  • "Miller was never a star pitcher, but his ability to fill in as a starting pitcher or relief pitcher, as needed, a "whatever-is-needed utility pitcher"," This needs to be in the main article per Wp:LEAD. I also don't think "whatever-is-needed utility pitcher" is best in the lead. Done - Moved out of lead
  • "Former teammate Roy Hartsfield, who managed the Toronto Blue Jays when Miller was the team's pitching coach, called him "The Christian", a nickname he earned "because he suffers so much", noting that Miller was a part-time reliever with a sore arm, but that "when we came up with some other sore arms on the staff he would come in and suffer a few innings."[2]" Again this info needs to be in the main body and not so much in the lead per WP:LEAD. Done - Moved out of lead
Pre-baseball
  • "Miller was born in St. Louis, Missouri as Robert Lane Gemeinweiser and changed his last name to "Miller"." I would split this sentence after Gemeinweiser. Otherwise it looks like he changed his name at birth. Secondly, why did he change his surname? Done - Sentence was reworded. I have not yet found a reason for the name change, or exactly when the change was made.
Cardinals
  • "Miller was pursued by 14 other teams" Is this 14 plus Cardinals or 14 including Cardinals. Personally I don't think it needs other, so I would include the Cardinals in this number. Done - recast to clarify that it was 15 teams in total
  • "He spent a brief injury-related stint" What's an injury-related stint?
  • "Miller earned the first save of his career on September 20, 1957, pitching the final 2⅔-innings of an 11–2 win by the Cardinals against the Los Angeles Dodgers at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, coming in to the game with one out and bases loaded in the bottom of the seventh inning and getting Frank Howard to ground into a double play to end the inning and then pitching two perfect innings to earn the save." Long sentence. I would be tempted to break it after Coliseum. Secondly "getting" is a very poor verb - see its list of definitions. I would change this verb.
Mets
  • "Miller's first, and only, win that season came in a 2–1 win over the Chicago Cubs at Wrigley Field on September 29" First is redundant; I would reword to "Miller's only win that ..." Secondly I would replace the second use of "win". Done - sentence was reworded
Dodgers
  • Lots of single sentence paragraphs. The text needs re-writing to avoid this.
  • "Miller spent the next four years with Dodgers as a reliever, with a 7–7 record and nine saves in 74 appearances (all but two in relief) and a 2.62 ERA in 1964.[5] His 74 appearances in 1964 were the most of any pitcher in the National League that season." Is that 74 appearances in 1964 or over four seasons?
1971
  • Why was he released by the Cubs?
  • See Dodgers about single-sentence paragraphs.
1973 and Mets
  • More single-sentence paragraphs.
MOS
  • Check the endashes.

I'll leave it on hold for these changes to be made. But great work so far. Peanut4 (talk) 20:36, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Still a lot of work to be done, and it's been on hold for two weeks so I'm afraid I'll have to fail the article. Most of the work is needed on improvements to the prose and the copyflow, as also highlighted by a second editor. I also have some concerns that sections seem short, because of a lack of detail, and hence maybe a lack in the breadth of coverage. I'd suggest trying to iron through the issues raised above, and then either a peer review or independent copyedit (possibly both) before re-nominating at GAN. Peanut4 (talk) 17:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

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