Talk:Bogomilism

Bosnia olso had major followers of Bogumilism during 10th c. until 1463 following Ottoman conquest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.245.22 (talk) 00:08, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Relation to Paulician ideas debatable

There seems to be a good deal of academic debate on the relation between the Bogomils and the Paulicians. For example, Michael Angold in Church and Society in Byzantium states the following: "There may have been contact with Paulician ideas, though Paulicians were not moved in large numbers into the Balkans - they were settled around Philippopolis - until c. 975, which was after the appearance of the Bogomil heresy." (p471) So I think it is misleading to state categorically that Bogomilism is "the synthesis of /Armenian Paulicianism/ and the Bulgarian Orthodox Church reform movement..." (emphasis mine). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Humanonthemove (talk • contribs) 18:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Differentiated perspective on Dualism needed

stop the -ismism At least be careful of signifying groups or people under the emblematic the suffix -ism make. I think the term Bogomilism gives a misleading notion. It seems that the attempts at signifying people, and groups as belonging to an -ism are reductionistic (cf. positivism). A trap linked with reductionism is that one makes the object of study fit the simplifying category. another point in regard of the irritating isms is that 9t has become a negative contagious association in regard of them, as in "muslims are ok, but not islamists". It is important to remember that these categories do not exist for those who are labeled by them. Neither have islamists, and definetively not bogomilists referred to themselves as such.

'absolute difference and absolute unity The understanding of the dualisms of especially christian gnostic heresies needs to be revised. For instant, the dualism of the Bogomils are not absolute. The prince of Darkness, Satanael, and the prince of Light, Michael are both sons of the One Father-Mother. Both the Bogomils and the Albigensians, the cathars, were esoteric in its structure, meaning here that the teachings came in successions of initiation rites, or induced mystic states of consciousness, or atonement with the allencompassing God, where also the fundamental duality of everything is overcome. I have not the sources available to bring this knowledge to the article itself, but hope some will reflect on it and, in time, apply the proper well-founded enlightenment for the people. The part on the doctrine is painful to read. First I doubt any bogomil would have recognised it. Secondly it is full of statements without sources or reference to theory. I've learned that it is ok to be opinionate and even argumentative in academic discourse, when so is outlined and explained. But it is never ok to tell what others believe or mean, without quotations. It is legal to interpret if one explains that what is expressed is an interpretation, but never mix an interpretation for the actual reference. Please!

== Historical link between contemporary Bosnian muslims and the bogomil heresy of the middle ages

I have come across this information through conversations about Bogomils. Im curious if someone can substansiate it?

--Xact (talk) 19:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Broaden the discourse!

This article isn't well written and lacks citation. There is a lot of scholarly debate about whether Bogomil doctrines can or cannot be traced to the Paulicians, Massalians, Gnostics, Manichaeism, even Buddhism, so for the sake of neutrality I do not believe this article should state they are "Gnostics" or "Manicheans" as a fact, but rather have a section outlining the different theories by different scholars.

I think this entry would also benefit by addressing the debate around to what degree Bogomilism can be viewed as a social/political resistance movement rather than as a purely religous one.

Likewise, is one of the fascinating legacies of Bogomilism is the way in which in modern times various groups have attempted to interept its legacy to its own benefit...communists, Bulgarian and Macedonian nationalists, Bosniaks, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martins79 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether the Bogomils can be accurately termed gnostic at all: dualist certainly, but can any continuity really be claimed between this sect and the early mystical heresies of the first three centuries CE? --User:Ben Parsons 10:58 GMT, 11 Aug 2005

The page Bosnian Church, which is not from EB1911, indicates that the main heretic religion in Bosnia at this time was not Bogomil gnostic, but mainstream early protestant. Someone should probably verify if Rački's and Ollinger's (or is it Dollinger's? Bad OCR...) 19th century conclusions are still considered canonical. --Shallot 11:34, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone know of an association between Bogomilism and the Phoundagiagitai? Euthymios, in a reference I didn't save from Google books, apparently thought the two sects were similar, perhaps the same.

From http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/chrono11.htm

1034: In around this year a certain Euthymios produced an account of a heretical group known as the Phoundagiagitai. In around the year 1000, the supposed founder of the group, John Tzourillas, was charged with rape. John had preached near Smyrna with considerable success. The Phoundagiagitai were fond of breaking up church services on the grounds that prayer should be private (Matthew 6.6). Initiation into the group involved a ceremony in which the Apocalypse of St. Peter was recited over the intiate’s head. They held that the devil had been expelled from heaven for stealing the sun and the soul. Euthymios added: “They teach not to expect the resurrection of the dead, nor the second coming, nor the Last Judgment, but that all power over earthly things with hell and paradise belongs to the lord of this world, that is to say, the devil, and that he puts his friends in paradise and his enemies in hell, and that he has nothing in common with God, but that God reigns in the heavens and the lord of the world on earth.”

I'm infrequent for this site; please email me with your responses at winwinsit@hotmail.com .

DrYattz 09:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Name and origin

I am Bulgarian. My name is Konstantin Velev. The origin and history of bogomils are a well known part of the well known history of Bulgaria. The ‘Bulgars’ (old Bulgarians or proto-Bulgarians) - in spite of the wide spread mistake, ware not Turkic nor yet nomadic. They ware pamirian. In other words they spoke Indo-European language. All this in no way contradicts here. See: Old Church Slavonic – please. It is the western name of the Slavic langrage spoken in Bulgaria at that time. I have no idea who this Dmitri Obolensky is and I do not care. "Bogu mili" ("those who are dear to God") is literally in Bulgarian (also in modern Bulgarian)! “Bog” is god and “mil”,“mili” (in plural) is dear to someone (also in modern Bulgarian)!

Instead of “finding” anything “unconvincing” – please check the historical documents.

The name 'Messalian' comes from a Syriac root meaning 'Those who pray' (look up "cly" in the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon: http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/). So also 'Euchite' in Greek. No apparent relationship with 'Bogu Mili' --BobGriffin-Nukraya 23:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Then the fact that the name Bogomil is a literral translation of 'Messalian' should be reexamined. Not only in Bulgarian, but Bogomil means "dear to god" in most of the Slavic languages (by the way, note I'm not of bulgarian origin). Also, I've studied back in primary school that they were also known as Babuni, because they were pretty widespread around the mountain and river Babuna near the town of Veles in modern Republic of Macedonia. Does anyone know something about this? Zaebangad 19:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm Vladimir and I'm Macedonian, and I think I know something about this, because I'm from Bogomila (village in the center of Macedonia by the river Babuna. Here everybody knows that Bogomilism begins with the Macedonian priest Bogomil from this village Bogomila and his people - Babuni. It was not connected by any way with Bulgarians. In fact this was first anti Bulgarian and anti Greek movement in Macedonia and on the base of this movement Tsar Samoil liberated Macedonia and created the first free and independent Macedonian kingdom. So, Konstantin please throw away your bulgarian "history books" and come in Bogomila and ask everybody about Bulgarian atrocities in Bogomila and surrounding starting right after this Bogomilism movement until the Second World War.

It was a BULGARIAN Empire

Samuel NEVER said about "Macedonians"..

SIMEON STATE'S MAP [1]

SAMUIL STATE'S MAP[2]

BULGARIA THEME IN SKOPJE AND OHRID [3] [4] [5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.0.219 (talk) 11:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The implication that the word Bogomil and the word Bulgar are cognate strikes me as unfounded as well. I removed the following section, which appeared under the heading Name:

The name of the movement was bulgarus in Latin (meaning "Bulgarian"), which included Paulicians, Cathars, Patarenes and Albigenses. It became boulgre, later bougre in Old French meaning "heretic, traitor". It entered German as Buger meaning "peasant, blockhead" (and went on to English as bugger) and the French term also entered old Italian as buggero and Spanish as bujarrón, both in the meaning of "sodomite", since it was supposed that heretics would approach sex (just like everything else) in an "inverse" way. The word went on towards Venetian Italian as buzerar, meaning "to do sodomy" (the sexual acts performed by homosexuals). This word entered German again (see reborrowing) as Buserant and went on to Hungarian as buzeráns, becoming buzi around the 1900s, a form still in use as a sexual slur for male homosexuals. The word also entered Swedish, through the mediation of August Strindberg, as bög, meaning male homosexual.

This seems to be a good etymology of the word bugger, but doesn't specifically have anything to do with the word Bogomil, which is earlier defined as "dear to God." If Bogomils themselves were called bulgarus, and not just the other heretics mentioned, then the passage is probably relevant, but this needs to be supported by a reference before it goes back into the article. Lusanaherandraton (talk) 09:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Fact Falsification

The origin of the population of these towns is Armenian Paulicians. The presentation of the Armenian Paulicians as Bogomils is a falsification.

The term "Ruthenia" everywhere in the article is meaningless, especially in reference to Molokani and Dukhobory, who were 18-19th century Russian old-believer sects, and have nothing to do with Austrian province "Ruthenia" of that time. I replaced "Ruthenia" with "Russia", "Medieval Russia" or "Kievan Rus".

Gnostic

Evidence needs to be provided in the article that the Bogomils were Gnostic. Dualism is not enough as that position belong to non-Gnostics as well.

---

I am surprized that this point might be discussed, as the bogomils were obviously gnostics !--Alexandre Rongellion (talk) 10:51, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

More to the point is that not all gnostics must be dualists. All that gnosticism implies, as I understand it, is a secret knowledge (the gnosis that is possessed only by an inner core of elect believers. Lexikonoklast 05:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)Lexikonoklast

Perhaps, most ironic, are all the alleged history of Bogomil. Where as, in Modern America. the Ancient Order of Bogomil. thru its Archbishop, J.L.Meiers, has brought the Ancient practices, into Modern Concepts of Practice(s). it is No longer Known as the "Secret Order of Bogomil", as it had been for centuries. due to misrepresentations. the followers and church leaders felt, it was needed, to practice in secret, as governments, and other church religious officials, had sought to discredit, and win over the followers, to their belief systems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.111.81.115 (talk) 15:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Doctrine Section

I have read quite a bit about the Bogomils, but that thing about Satanail and Michael being God's sons I have never seen and I do not see any resources stated!! evangeline.a (talk) 20:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

'From the imperfect and conflicting data which are available one positive result can be gathered: that the Bogomils were both Adoptionists and Manichaeans.'

To my mind, the word Manichaean only has meaning when it refers to a group of people who actually, intentionally, knowingly, and in a self-identifying way consider themselves to follow the teachings of Mani.

Many medieval theologians used the word to mean little more than 'Dualist' (much in the lower-case way that it is used by modern writers). It is a shame that they wrote this way, but their knowledge of Mani and his teachings was pretty much restricted to the writings of St. Augustine, so you can't really blame them.

But we no longer suffer from this historical ignorance, so unless the Bogomils actually considered themselves the successors of Mani's religious movement, it is highly inappropriate to call them Manichaeans. I don't know enough about them to make this change on my own (the reason why I came to this article was to learn about them), but I just wanted to put this out there so that a) someone who knows more about this than I can think about it and make any appropriate changes, and b) whoever put this passage in there in the first place is warned that I am planning on coming through and changing it at some later date (after I get a book on the Bogomils).

I think you have it right here. My knowledge is more limited when it comes to Bogomilism than when it comes to western heretics. Lexikonoklast 05:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)Lexikonoklast

Bosnia, again

Uncited, and highly controversial, references to Bosnian Bogomilism have been spread out again (likely as a WP:POVFORK from Bosnian Church). I will tag them with {{fact}} and remove them soon unless someone can prove the Bulgarian-Bosnian link with relevant sources (Bosniak popular mythology doesn't count). Duja 11:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

So-called

"the so-called heretical sects of the East and those of the West" I'm just curious why the article says "so-called" in this place but not in others. I consider it a heresy, but I'm not sure whether such a term is considered pejorative and therefore POV by non-traditional Christians. Either way, we should be consistent. Nyttend 16:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality + weasel words

The History part is based on Bosniak popular myths and not on historical facts which is presented with lots of weasel words and no sources. --Noirceuil 12:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

To the anon user

Do not mechanically replace Bulgarian with Macedonian. This article is well sourced. If you have something to add, please do so incorporating it into the existing text. Mr. Neutron 22:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Official language of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church

Quoted from the article: The forced Christianization of the Slavs and proto-Bulgarians by Tsar Boris I in 863 and the fact that the religion was practised in Greek, which only the ‘elite’ knew, resulted in a very superficial level of understanding of the religion, if any understanding at all.

Well, that is exactly not true. Confusion regading Christianity also arised due to the Bulgarian population was first Christianised by Greek Orthodox priests, then by Latin Catholics, because of Boris' political machinations to achieve an autonomous church. Yet, while the statemant of "superficial understanding", it is not valid for the late IXth century and onwards. As for the Greek language, one of the main goal of Boris I and his son Simeon I was to create a Slavic alphabeth and to remove the Greek language from the Bulgarian church (which became the first truly Slavonic church). By the late 920's when Bogomilism started spreding most, if not all priests would have spoken Slavonic in liturgies and such. This should be corrected in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.83.252.168 (talk) 08:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Letter from Heaven

Which Letter from Heaven is the article talking about? The Himmelsbrief tradition has gone across centuries and continents. --84.20.17.84 (talk) 10:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Check Presbyter Cosmas

He says something like, not quite accurate translation, the newly appeared heresy, started by the priest Bogomil (dear to God) or should I say Bogunemil (Not dear to God), which means that Cosmas thought that Bogomil started this heresy (Bogomilism) which was named after him. Also check, mountain and river Babuna for name Babuni, (Babunas) was also used for the Bogomils. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.1.242 (talk) 03:29, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

heresy? NPOV

Is it just me or is using the phrase "heresy" to describe a religion introducing a POV to the article? It may be technically correct inasmuch Bogomilism was definitely a deviation from mainstream Christianity at the time... but maybe distancing the article from any xenophobic flavor could improve the objectivity of the content. brain (talk) 06:26, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

The entire article violates NPOV and needs to be rewritten. Viriditas (talk) 00:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

While I agree with the NPOV problem, it should be noticed that the term heresy can be used in its factual sense. For example: "The council of Nicea in 325 declared Arius to be a heretic." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.118.207 (talk) 22:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Fasting on Monday

This article claims that the Bogomils refused to fast on Monday and Friday. I think this should say "Wednesday and Friday." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.118.207 (talk) 22:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Bogomils in Bosnia

Other than beginning in Bulgaria, Macedonia and Serbia whom also ruled Macedonia along with the Bulgarians, Bogomils were the alleged pre-Islamic era Slavs of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the 9th century AD to the mid 1500's. It is thought Bogomils were descendants of non-Romanized Celts whom mixed with the indigenousIllyrians and later the newly arrived Slavs. Bosnian Bogomils were pushed out by the invading Ottoman Turks first to Croatia, Hungary, Romania, the Ukraine and Belarus before they ended up in Poland, Russia and the former Czechoslovakia in the 16th to 19th centuries. Bogomils are well concentrated in Carpathian Ruthenia which was under Russian rule and later annexed by Poland after WWI to be annexed by the then Soviet Union in WWII, is in the present-day western half of Ukraine and eastern Slovakia. The majority of Bogomils still reside in Bulgaria, Romania and to a lesser extent Hungary. + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 08:26, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Article Rewriting, Organisation and Citing

I am planing to organize, and encyclopedize this article. There are a lot of information that need to be sorted.

I think that there too many sources mentioned in the article that should be omitted. The sentences should be rewritten so they would fit an encyclopedia and then properly cited.

Please do not revert, as I am not edit warring. If you have sources and ideas, please contribute. Svrznik (talk) 13:26, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Intro edits

This version of the intro is rather unacceptable. I feel that it purposefully attempts to cover up the origins of the movement, which were in Bulgaria.

• There is no scholarly evidence that priest Bogomil preached in Veles and Prilep (in fact, he is only mentioned in Cosmas the Priest's treatise, and as far as I know it says nothing of these regions, it discusses the movement as it if is popular in entire Bulgaria).

• Referring to Bogomil as preaching "in the Republic of Macedonia" is a blatant anachronism, and, bearing in mind my previous point, is also wrong.

• Bogomilism didn't spread only among the South Slavs: most of its Byzantine followers were perhaps not at all Slavic.

• The oldest record of Bogomilism is Bulgarian writer Cosmas the Priest's treatise, not some documents of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. — Toдor Boжinov — 11:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

You've completely misunderstood. I'll get back to your points later. But as far as translations are concerned, Old Church Slavonic was the language of the period. Perhaps you can try find an OCS text which uses that name. :) --124.169.164.103 (talk) 22:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

At that time Macedonia was Byzantyne theme in today Thrace, and Republic of Macedonia did not exist. There was a First Bulgarian empire, a Province of Kutmichevitsa. All intro now is blatant nationalism and sketchy anachroninism. Jingby (talk) 10:04, 17 January 2011 (UTC).

Wiping out text

Sorry, I had to revert, but a large portion of the article got deleted with the explanation "Removing OR". I think a good explanation is due for such a move. I acknowledge the fact that most of the removed text had missing citations or OR tags, but yet it was removed selectively (some of the paragraphs with tags were preserved). --Laveol ^T 06:29, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes neglected articles need a good original research/patently false material purge. Had I known you were watching the article to question things I would have inquired first.

Now, must we go section by section? NJMauthor (talk) 22:19, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

For your information, I have deleted this paragraph from "Connections to the Royal Court" sub-section:

"Some sources claim the originator was the brother of tsar Petar, the fourth of the sons of Simeon I – Beneamin-Boyan, known in Bulgaria under the name Boyan the Magus. According to these sources (Roman clergy documents in Constantinople) Beneamin was heavily influenced by "strange Syrean visitors" who visited him on several occasions during his studies at the imperial Magnaur University in Constantinople. Upon returning to Bulgaria Beneamin-Boyan used his position to receive a monastery from the state which he used to convert a large portion of the aristocracy and clergy into Bogomil followers."

because there are absolutely no sources about it, except for some Bulgarian historical novels, written with more with imagination and romanticism than relying to the facts. Veneamin (or Boyan "The Magician"), brother to tsar Peter I of Bulgaria, was mentioned in Byzantine sources for wearing the Bulgar traditional costumes in the royal court (together with his brother John) in times when Byzantine clothing became popular within Bulgarian aristocracy. In 968 he appears in the writings of Liutprand of Cremona for practicing magic and being able to shapeshift as a wolf and other animals. This is usually seen as keeping to the Protobulgarian shamanism long after the conversion of the state to Christianity and has notning to do with the Bogomils.

85.196.168.81 (talk) 21:30, 3 August 2014 (UTC)Roxy

Proper explanation of etymology of bugger is needed.

Please,some more knowledgeable to revise etymology and facts in bugger section because there is a mess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.121.192.146 (talk) 09:28, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Addition of Sandžak to the list

I added Sandžak to the list of countries where Bogomils used to live, as it is the land where Stefan Nemanja fought with Bogomils. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Batokanda (talk • contribs) 19:33, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

contradiction

There are contradictions in the page. For example the Paulicians chapter says they «led perfectly normal lives ... and were renowned as good fighting men» but the Opposition to institutions and materialism chapter says «Its followers refused to pay taxes, to work in serfdom, or to fight in conquering wars.»

Is there a contradiction ? Is it not normal to live your life without paying taxes ? As I understand that period of transition to a feudal organisation, it implied the force of land lords used to establish rules (meaning taxes, serfdom, etc). Did I get it wrong ? Was not Bogomilism about that ? Challenging authority (of land lords and church) to restore the freedom of people (the original Christianity) ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbuftea (talk • contribs) 15:13, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Bogomilism/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Could definitely use inline citations before being considered for GA status. Badbilltucker 22:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 22:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 09:59, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Bosnians

Bosnians (this is not an ethnic name but a regional one - the only ethnic names known from the contemporary sources in medieval Bosnia were "Serbs and Vlachs"[6] The source is only book of John V. A. Fine, Jr "The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century" without a page or quote. I can't find this information in the book so I guess it doesn't exist. I suggest deleting this information which has no evidence in RS (this is not an ethnic name but a regional one - the only ethnic names known from the contemporary sources in medieval Bosnia were "Serbs and Vlachs). Mikola22 (talk) 08:48, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

If it is erroneous quote, delete is in order. When I catch time to grab the book I will try searching it. Mhare (talk) 11:53, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

If you do not find this information feel free to delete this information. Mikola22 (talk) 20:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

A slightly different perspective on the Bogomils.

Historian Hans Grimn has a different perspective on the Bogomils. He says that they were not Dualists or Manichaens, but that they mixed with them, and became associated with them. http://www.netbiblestudy.net/history/new_page_4.htm He says:

Old Slavic belief in the gods and Finnish-Ugrian Schamanism of the Bulgarian lordly rank merge in many parts of the eastern Balkans with Gnostic-Manichean conceptions which non-Christian groups of heretics had brought with them, groups that had been deported at the same time as the Christians.  In numerous discussions the brethren and sisters tried to protect themselves against the reproach that they had had anything at all to do with these dualistic groups of ascetics; it was all without avail.

He has sources, but they are in foreign languages, so I cannot read any of them.

Would he be considered a reliable source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnpaulÞ (talk • contribs) 17:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Disturbingly biased article

The view that the Bogomils were gnostic is not a consensus. The view that the paulicians were gnostics is mostly dismissed, yet this article makes out that both were hardline dualists. Desperately needs a rewrite. 20thJune (talk) 11:13, 30 March 2024 (UTC)