Talk:Bolesław I the Brave/Archive 1
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This polish king is commonly named in english historical literature as Boleslas the Valiant (it is the better transaltion of polish "Chrobry" than the Brave).
Récupérée de « http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discuter:Boleslas_Ier_de_Pologne »
Older talk moved from Talk:Boleslaw I Chrobry
Should we remove the wives of Mieszko from this article to his article? I don't think they make much sense here, since we aren't naming any one of them as Boleslaw's mother. They do belong on Mieszko entry, though. I removed the 'true brotherly' whatever from the frater et cooperator title. Otto didn't live long enough for us to be sure WHAT he meant by it, but he certainly meant it to his advantage, not as a sign of how fond he was of Boleslaw.
Since this entry contains facts which are in contradiction in everything that i rad so far about Boleslav I Chrobry, i will change it in few next week. Just a warning for everybody interested in discussions. I am going to: elaborate more on relationships with Empire. Delete "he try to conquere Danzig, Cracow" and "Conquered Silesia" since all this places where conquered earlier, most of them by Mieszko I. I will add info about his daughter, Swiatosl/awa/sygryda (mother of Knaut the Great), and sons. szopen
HJ, you may not know Latin, but you do know genealogy and German. Please spell out your 'von' or change it to English 'of'.
MT whenever I write von , which is a part of the name, someone goes and changes it to of. This is incoorect,but some people insist on translating it to of. The Boleslav entry had von an v . I made it uniform v., because I noticed, that whereever it sais v. people don't know and leave it alone. With von Braun it remained as von, because someone had input him under Wernher Von Braun. So it is very confusing. HJ
- I'm surprised you find this aspect of nomenclature confusing at all. Modern people use 'von' as though it doesn't mean anything. v. Polen means 'of Poland', because it's a noble title connected to a place. --MichaelTinkler
Which of the four wives was the mother of Mieszko II?
Is Wendland an actual name for a country or state? or was she a Wendish princess -- I've never heard of the former. Perhaps this should be changed to say X, a Wendish noblewoman, or X of the Wends. JHK
Wendland is in Northern Germany. I have seen entrances as ..of the Wends, but Mieszko I and Boleslaw I were margraves (pledge allegiance to emperors) and some genealogy references call Misezko I , aka Burislaf of Wendland .
- I keep telling you about these genealogical references! They aren't generally done by decent historians -- usually people with no command of the original languages who think they know what they're reading. Could you maybe show us an example and the kind of source? If it is a source from the period in question and says Wendland in the original language, I'd love to see it. I've only seen references to "where the Wends live", etc. You may be entirely right, but to my ear it "klingt falsch"! Thanks in advance -- JHK
How nice it would be if we only wikified important terms and actually checked to see what the names of existing articles were before wikifying anything. JHK
- I disagree. The articles can be created later. Let's not get into a wikify/de-wikify fight. Why not leave them alone? If the articles are created later, we'll have to go back and re-update this article, but if they're already wikified, then when the articles ARE created, they will default be available already. -- Zoe
- Sorry, Zoe, but you aren't up to speed on this particular problem. HJ creates lots of articles that are little more than genealogies. A HUGE number of the people who appear are people for whom there is little (often just the name) historical information. There is no reason to wikify names of, for example, third daughters of minor dukes whose sole reason for a mention is that they represented a tangible way of creating a political alliance and served as breeders.
- Moreover, HJ tends to create new and interesting names (often based on those she finds in genealogical websites) for people who have more conventional names in English, and often for people who already have wiki articles under those appropriate names. What then happens is that HJ or some well-meaning person decides to write an article by clicking on the link -- thus creating an article that is badly named (so that someone like me has to move it) or is a duplicate (so that someone like me has to create a coherent article under one name and redirect the other).
- In general, your idea is correct, but is totally impracticable when dealing with articles which are incorrectly wikified from the get-go. Also, you'll note that, in the suggested guidelines, there has been valid discussion about over-wikifying. JHK
- Okay. So how do I know what over-wikificiation is? -- Zoe
- With names, my way is to look at them and see if they are 1)correct nomenclature (single first names just are silly, except for people like Mohammed and Charlemagne), and; 2)if they look familiar and might already exist under a more appropriate title (Otto III, for example, has an article under Otto III, Holy Roman Emperor -- or something like that). I do the ones I'm sure of first, pipelining the links to the correct article, and then go through and do geographical and year links. Since I tend to work on things I know (except that I'll copyedit anything), I feel pretty comfortable, although I may underwikify. The cool thing about the new software, though, is that you can find links, and also just search for subjects and go through that way. I hope this helps -- I certainly didn't mean to criticize, but also have been around long enough to know who some of the truly trollike are ;-)JHK
- Okay. So how do I know what over-wikificiation is? -- Zoe
In 984 Boleslaus married Rikdaga
- He married a daughter of Rikdag (Ricdag, Riddag), the margrave of Meissen. Is the name Rikdaga known? I suspect this is a misreading. Andres
In medeival world, state once raised to the rank of kingdom continue to be kingdom. Boleslaw's son was immedietely crowned king, and neighbours recognised it.
Boleslaw couldn't conquer Silesia in 990, sicne he became ruler of Poland in 992. Earlier he probably was inwested (but only probably) with Cracow province.
Silesia was probably gained by Mieszko; why probably? Because the chronicles are only talking that Mieszko "gained kingdom lost by Bohemia" and this "kingdom" may be either Silesia or Cracow. Both of those provicnes appear already in Boleslaw hands in 1000 (why we know? Because we know what bishopries were created... he couldn't have bishops in wroclaw and Krakow if he didn't posses them, right?).
The date "999" came from Czech Kosmas chronicle, written decades later. Hence the confusion. Information about "lost kingdom" came from Thietmar, which lived in Boleslaw times. Szopen
I changed Henry the Quarrelsome to Henry the Wrangler - both Henry I and Henry II of Bavaria seem to be called The Quarrelsome, depending on where you look, whereas 'Wrangler' is unique to Henry II.
"Made Sviatopolk his vassal"
For almost a year, I've been looking for someone who would tone down the following slur: "he used the internal war of Vladimir the Great sons for throne and the weakness of Kyivan Rus to launch a plundering attack on Kyiv in 1018, annexing the Red Strongholds (Grody Czerwienskie) later called Red Ruthenia and making prince Sviatopolk his vassal there for short time." As there is noone concerned, I'll have to fix it myself. --Ghirlandajo 17:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Be bold. I know that the differences between view on Swietopelk-Boleslaw relations in Polish and Ukrainian historiography are staggering. Szopen 12:58, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
- Boleslaw / Bolesław 152k
- Boleslav - 178k
- Boleslaw I / Bolesław I - 847
- Boleslav I - 543
- approx. 1400 but those names should be a disambig, see note below
- Boleslaw the Brave - 461
- Boleslav the Brave - 573
- approx. 1000
- Bolesław Chobry / Boleslaw Chrobry - 13
- Boleslav Chrobry - 1390
- approx 1400
- Boleslaw of Poland / Bolesław of Poland - 129
- Boleslav of Poland - 74
- approx 200, this should also be a disambig, see below
- Boleslaw I the Brave / Bolesław I the Brave - 539
- Boleslav I the Brave - 43
- approx 600
- Boleslaw I Chrobry / Bolesław I Chrobry - 103
- Boleslav I Chrobry - 43
- aprox 150
- Boleslaw I of Poland / Bolesław I of Poland - 268
- Boleslav I of Poland - 47
- approx 300
- Boleslaw I the Brave of Poland / Bolesław I the Brave of Poland - 143
- Boleslav I the Brave of Poland - 7
- approx 150
- Boleslaw the Brave of Poland / Bolesław the Brave of Poland - 19
- Boleslav the Brave of Poland - 14
- aprox 40
- Boleslaus - 27k
- Boleslaus I - 879
- should be a disambig
- Boleslaus the Brave - 1530
- Boleslaus Chrobry - 20
- Boleslaus of Poland - 85, should be a disambig
- Boleslaus I Chrobry - 43
- Boleslaus I of Poland - 3k but down to 639 excluding wiki
- Boleslaus I the Brave - 678
- Boleslaus I the Brave of Poland - 2
Note that the above results are not totaly exclusive (larger names contain some of the shorter) and that Boleslaw I/Boleslaus I may also refer to Boleslaus I of Bohemia (which is actualy at 'Boleslav', also known as Boleslav I of Bohemia, Boleslaus I the Cruel, Boleslav I. Ukrutný), and Boleslaw of Poland may refer to several Polish kings.
There are 2 possible choices for first name (I will skip the disambigs in the count):
- Bolesław (combined with Boleslaw and Boleslav, as we already have a custom of using local name if very similar). This seems to be used around 3200 times
- Boleslaus (latinized) - 5000 if counting Wiki and its mirrors, 2800 otherwise (although I admit I didn't discount Wiki in other searches, I am assuming that the wiki-bias is for current name Boleslaus).
Even in English usage, Boleslaw seems much more common then latinized Boleslaus. In our context there seem to be a parity with roughly 3000 hits for each variant. Even counting current Wiki-name bias, we get about 62,5% for Boleslaus - meaning that there is no single, clear, well-estabilished English usage, therefore I think that we should use Bolesław, which, being the Polish name, has the advantage of being consistent with all Polish sources.
There and 3 choices for the second name:
- I vs. not using numeral - 4k for not using it, 2,5k using it without Wiki-bias, 5k using it with Wiki bias. Again, a rough parity.
- Chrobry vs. the Brave - approx 1750 for Chrobry, 3500 for Brave - seems like the English translation of his nickname wins, which is actually a good idea (at least it means something for the overage user, other then Slavic blah blah)
- Chrobry/the Brave vs. of Poland - close to 5k vs 1k not counting Wiki, 2,5k counting Wiki. Seems like 'of Poland' is rather unecessary.
All things considered, I think that Bolesław I the Brave is the best name, and everything else should be made into a redirect (or disambig in the few cases I listed above). What do you think?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 03:21, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- Support! I think the only conceivable question is whether to keep the Roman numeral. I think we should, because at least it puts the various Bolesławs in order — a boon to the Polish-history-handicapped. logologist 07:21, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
- Support this and all other instances of Bolesław and most other Polish names. I have reservations only about about the given names Ladislaus (Władysław) and Stanislaus (Stanisław); the Latinizations seem more common in English, possibly because they were borne by saints whose cult is popular even outside Poland; I have no statistics to back this up, it's just an impression. The biggest issue for me is when the editors of an English-language text try to be "authentic" and use the native Polish orthography without diacrtics. If you don't have an "ł" available, Boleslaus is much better than Boleslaw which reads like "coleslaw" in English! Anyway, if we can support Polish orthography now, we should use it, except the cases mentioned above. --Jpbrenna 19:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Rikdaga&the number of daughters
Andres already remarked that the name Rikdaga could be wrong. I confirm this, the Polish Wiki "calls her: "córka Rygdaga", which means "the daughter of Rygdag".
In the Polish Wiki(at the bottom) is to be read that he had FOUR daughters, not one as in the English version. Of only 2 of them, the name is known: Matylda and Regelinda. Here you can also read out of which marriage comes each child.
Annaxation of Slovakia?
"In 999 Bolesław annexed present-day Moravia, and in 1000 or 1001, Slovakia."
This is a huge mistake. Bolesław annexed only a small part of today Northern Slovakia. see: http://www.mek.iif.hu/porta/szint/egyeb/terkep/magyar11/magyar11.jpg
This has been too long in a location which clearly contravenes the naming convention. So, this needed a more NPOV place. In recent other polls, the general editorship has shown a clear support for "non-Polish" name versions. For starters, the recent name was not arrived by any consensus, but by a unilateral move, so its proponents are not entitled to claim their version the original or "lawful" one. The original was "Boleslaus I of Poland". I am not entirely happy with the location here, because I personally think the English form could be "Boleslaus". Because so many (Polish?) editirs have expressed they are most unhappy with -laus endings, I swallowed my own preferences and chose a more Slavic-looking -lav here. Hope it satisfies at least some. If this is not a satisfactory place, be welcome to open a poll where this should be moved to. Then, I will vote for Boleslaus. Shilkanni 23:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- The voting was 16:12 (no consensus?), and the proposal to move wasn't even to "Boleslav". Appleseed (Talk) 12:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, it was 16:9 in favor of the move, because of course Polish-camp's sockpuppets do not count. Shilkanni 18:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- I am very suprised about the move. Move of an article in the face of a clear lack of consensus in WP:RM by an editor who is well aware that there is no consensus and has been asked not to do so before is IMHO shows a considerable lack of judgement and that some stronger warnings may be needed. PS. As usual with Shilkanni moves, we have a series of unfixed double redirects (just see what links to this page). Deja vu, again.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Piotrus, you seem so surprised. And, when you speak of consensus, do you feel that 9 editors for keeping that Polish name, against 16, is a reason enough to keep it in the Polish name. There is certain surprising element in such reasoning. Shilkanni 18:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
editirs have expressed they are most unhappy with -laus endings, I swallowed my own preferences and chose a more Slavic-looking -lav here. What ? I don't understand, he was Polish, and isn't connected to history of Slavic tribes, that ended with formation of Christian Poland. It is more proper for Latin name then some imaginary "Slavic" version. --Molobo 16:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- In case you are unhappy with such smaller details, feel free to open a move request. Then you have an ongoing discussion open, not now. I predict that you, Molobo, are going to get expelled from English Wikipedia if you continue trying to keep the article in a location where only a minority of 9 against 16 has accepted it to be kept. I believe you cannot afford to fight against both the majority and the naming convention that is in effect. Shilkanni 18:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I restored the previous version-here is the reasoning
The previous move was done disregardign the ongoing discussion regarding the proper naming. We all should wait till the discussion is over before making drastic, unsupported moves, especially using weak and ahistoric argumentation like "it sounds slavic". --Molobo 16:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- There is no ongoing discussion regarding this naming. You are sadly mistaken. The last discussion ended, in reality, 16:9 in favor of move. Shilkanni 18:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
1.Which means no concensus 2.The voting was for Boleslaus I of Poland not the horrible Boleslav I of Poland which you invented and try to push through.
- I have said that I do not particularly like -lav. -laus would be better. Feel free to open a move request. However, regarding the so-called rough consensus, you should be aware that 16:9 is a sufficient consensus. If English is used in en-wiki, the page is not going to go to the Polish name - you have your warning. Shilkanni 18:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
It is you that has to open a move request for Boleslav because there was no debate on that particular change of name, which you are trying to push through. --Molobo 18:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC) you should be aware that 16:9 is a sufficient consensus According to the vote debate there is no concensus. Until sockpupptes are determined the vote stays. --Molobo 18:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Evidently, Shorter Cambridge Medieval History uses Boleslav I. That's a sufficient ground to accept it, even if not liking it. I have repeatedly said that I do not particularly like that -lav ending, preferring -laus. We can move this to Boleslaus I of Poland if you also prefer -laus over -lav. What is certain, against the shown community majority this is not going to be kept in the Polish spelling. Shilkanni 11:27, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Sockpuppets used by Logologist
If we leave one vote for the real user, and take away the three phonies, that means that oppose was 6, not 9, showing that the page had a consensus behind it for the move. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 19:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- First, please note that the RM was to Boleslaus I of Poland and not to Boleslav I of Poland. Second, please get your math staight: discounting sockpuppets I have 9, not 6 oppose votes. Third, it is good rule of thumb to ask the RM-specialist admin to recount the votes instead of moving it yourself to a name that you think is best.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 02:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)