Talk:Book of Mormon

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Former featured article candidate Book of Mormon is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
January 19, 2004 Refreshing brilliant prose Not kept
October 17, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former featured article candidate

Merger proposal: the keystone metaphor[edit]

I suggest that the (very short) page Keystone symbol in Mormonism should be merged into this article. I really want to work on the Keystone article, and this separate page arose because of disagreement how/whether to include the Mormon example of the figurative use of "Keystone" in the keystone page itself. (Actually I think some discussion of the various figurative uses is quite appropriate, but that is a separate issue.) Now we have this rather stranded page -- it could be referenced from this page, but if the keystone is that significant, it should surely merit mention in the body of the text, and all of the content would fit in a small paragraph. (Currently 'keystone' occurs only in the title of one of the references.) Imaginatorium (talk) 07:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

  • I agree. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:53, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
    • So do I. --Jgstokes (talk) 22:28, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
      • Makes sense. Slb1900 (talk) 06:23, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
    • Weak approval - I don't see a need for a separate article, but I also don't see a need for a focus. It is unquestioned that Joseph Smith made this statement and it has been repeated, but the keystone teaching itself is not a concept. If it is addressed there needs to be balance between this statement and the 8th Article of Faith, which is contained with the Standard Works of the Church. Daily speech affords hyperbole whereas scripture demands a whole different level of direction and review. --StormRider 18:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
      • If merged, I agree that all that would be necessary is a very short mention in Book of Mormon. I would think one sentence would suffice. It would probably just say something like, "Joseph Smith and other leaders of the LDS Church have characterized the Book of Mormon as the 'keystone' of Mormonism." The various sources in Keystone symbol in Mormonism could follow the sentence. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:19, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree. I like the way that was worded. I would suggest that wording be implemented into the article ASAP. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:21, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
  • As creator of the "Keystone symbol in Mormonism" article, I agree that although the keystone symbol is an important concept in Mormonism, it probably doesn't merit its own page. The concept is already vaguely referenced in the third sentence in the "Religious Significance" section; perhaps it would be best to merge Good Olfactory's proposed sentence with the existing third sentence where the keystone concept is partially quoted. Lebaronmatthew (talk) 11:30, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Agree. COGDEN 18:17, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Keystone metaphor seems very appropriate - the Wikipedia article gave a symbol off to the side which made it appear that that would be the symbol for representing Keystone. If it is incorporated into the discussion and I think it would be very fine to do so. It would need to represent the true meaning of the Keystone as the center or central stone that is used to hold up an arch that has it's center stone keeping the structure intact. The fact that the Book of Mormon exists, That Joseph Smith was told where it was by an Angel, that God the Father and Jesus Christ who first appeared to Joseph set about the restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that was lost to the world through an ancient apostacy from authority, doctrine, etc. - Have placed The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter - Day Saints, on the earth. Would necessarily have to have the Book of Mormon hold up under all circumstances that could be thrown at it and brought to test it's authenticity. It does hold up and has held up under every test I have been able to give it. Sometimes the answers come immediately and sometimes it will take weeks and months before answers reveal themselves, but it always comes out true. It holds up under all scrutiny. Because it's true.Dalwiscombe (talk) 01:20, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

What if this article just cites the quote and leaves it at that, without any advocacy one way or the other? It is probably the most famous statement ever about the Book of Mormon itself. Seems appropriate to include it on that basis, per Wikipedia Pillar 2 to "document and explain the major points of view, giving due weight with respect to their prominence". Perhaps something like "Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon 'was the most correct book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get closer to God by abiding by its principles, than by any other book'". Pretty tough to be more major, weighty or prominent than that. But then just leave it at that. The reader can form their own opinion about such a strong statement. Dpammm (talk) 05:31, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

While Smith's famous comment about his book is, as Dpamm states, "famous", the entire sentence doesn't need to be produced here. While the phrase "more correct than any other" is probably the most famous snippet from the longer quote and should be included, the entire quote is overkill and reads more like an author's quote on the dust jacket of a bestseller. Include a summary and the pithy meat of the quote certainly, but don't let Smith drone on and on about how great his book is all the way to the bitter end. We've tried to avoid entire quotes most of the time when a clause or two is generally quite sufficient to get the point across. --Taivo (talk) 13:53, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Change Article Title from "Book of Mormon" to "The Book of Mormon"[edit]

Hello everyone,

A couple of days ago, I created my first topic page post ever right here on this talk page. It's the "Requested moves -- add "the" to . . ." page. I've since read up on Wikipedia etiquette & talk page guidelines. My apologies if I trespassed over some of these general practices, and please bear with me as I "traverse the learning curve".

I'd like to delete that topic page and start over. If deleting it is possible, I request an experienced talk page member explain the steps required to do it. Thanks in advance to anyone who helps me with this.

Moving forward, I'd like to focus the scope of this talk page to the article title only. Again, please bear with me as I learn the rules of the road.

The current title of this Wikipedia article is "Book of Mormon". In my view, the title should be changed to "The Book of Mormon". A few key rationales for this are as follows:

1. "The Book of Mormon" is the book's general short title, and always has been

2. It was the large print portion of the title page in the 1st edition (I think)

3. It's the generally accepted title used in everyday speech among latter-day saint movement adherents

4. "Book of Mormon" violates the key Wikipedia imperative to use proper grammar, because it is not an official or accurate title

I request anyone with a different point of view please contribute it in this talk page.


Dpammm (talk) 01:09, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

You can open a request for that, see Wikipedia:Requested moves. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:33, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Per WP:THE, I don't think we would include the "The" in the article name. No one (not even the LDS Church) capitalizes the "The" in running text. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:30, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

2 items: (1) what is "WP:THE" (remember, I'm new at this) (2) It's true no one capitalizes "the" when referring to the Book of Mormon in running text. But grammatically, using proper english, does that necessarily translate into not using the correct title of the book as the article title? I don't see how a running text convention would wipe out using the proper title of the book, let alone any other book. Also, "Book of Mormon" is not used as an object in running text or everyday conversation. "Books of Mormon", "Book of Mormons", etc. are not used. "Copies of The Book of Mormon" is how I've been trained to say it, even if that's a bit unwieldy. I don't know whether "Book of Mormon copies" is OK. Pls. Share your thoughts. Dpammm (talk) 16:55, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

WP or MOS are prefixes that distinguish "Manual of Styles" or Wiki Project pages that give instruction on how to use the wiki. So, for example, when someone adds information to an article that is unsourced and usually based on one persons interpretation of an item you could cite "WP:OR" as reason to remove the content.
In this case I believe that "The Book of Mormon" is the proper title, and WP:THE does state that you can use the word "The" in the title name. However, one thing to consider is how searchable the name my be. In this case "Book of Mormon" may be the better name. As a final thought I decided to do a test. I went and looked for the article on the Bible to see how it had been named. Its title also omits the article at the beginning of the name, so "Book of Mormon" may also be more consistent. I don't really have a preference one way or the other. I did want to commend you to keep up the good work though. Dromidaon (talk) 17:52, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
There are three different types of "the" relevant to this discussion. 1) The garden variety of definite article, used after a generic noun has been singled out for discourse cohesion: "I saw a dog. The dog was chewing a bone." 2) The specifier role used in front of proper nouns: "I watch the Dallas Cowboys play football." 3) Part of the actual proper noun: "I watch The View." The question here is whether 2) or 3) is the appropriate way to interpret the the which precedes "Book of Mormon". There is a simple test which is completely reliable in distinguishing between uses 2) and 3): capitalization in running text. "The" is not part of the proper noun "Dallas Cowboys", therefore it is never capitalized (except at the beginning of a sentence and when blazoned on a marquee, of course). "I watch the Dallas Cowboys", not "I watch The Dallas Cowboys". When one is talking of the television program, however, "the" is always capitalized because it is part of the name itself. "I watch The View", not "I watch the View". So let's compare that to the usage of "the" before "Book of Mormon". This is from the Introduction to the Book of Mormon itself. Notice that "the" is never capitalized unless it's at the beginning of a sentence. That's definitive. --Taivo (talk) 22:55, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
While I know Wikipedia is not required to follow the style guide of article subjects, it is interesting to note that the fifth bullet of the church style guide uses a lower case "t" in the sentence. Bahooka (talk) 23:05, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Hey everybody, I noticed the controversy on the topic, and decided to voice my own opinion on the matter. As the word 'The' was and is officially published as part of the book's title, it is my opinion that this article should indeed be moved to 'The Book of Mormon', as opposed to 'Book of Mormon'. Thanks, --Joseph Yanchar (talk) 06:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm picking this back up: another editor recommended providing official references. This formal media guide from states that the official title is "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ" So what are the next steps? Am I OK to change the page title to "The Book of Mormon"? Does this go to mediation? I request that someone in the know advise what I'm supposed to do next. Thanks!Dpammm (talk) 17:34, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

If you wish to pursue it, you can follow the instructions at WP:RM to formally propose a name change. You should not move the article yourself since there has been disagreement here as to whether or not it should be changed, so the change would be classified as a "controversial" one that needs a formal discussion. Once you open the discussion using the WP:RM process, the formal proposal will then be open for comments and discussion for at least a week. If there is a consensus in the discussion that the article title should be changed, it will be changed by an administrator. If there is consensus for the current name, the title will not be changed. If there is no consensus that can be identified, then the article name will remain unchanged. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
The LDS Church is not the only organization that is publishing copies of the Book of Mormon; your citation is only useful to demonstrate the name the LDS Church has given it's edition since October 1982, not to what it was historically called, nor what other denominations in Latter Day Saint movement and other publishers call it. The name of the article is best left as-is. Asterisk*Splat 18:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
The website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does NOT include a capitalized "the" with the Book of Mormon. See the style guide here. Bahooka (talk) 18:46, 29 September 2014 (UTC)