Talk:Brandon Thomas (footballer)

Island/Province/Autonomous Community birthplace information for Balearic football players

The Balearic Islands are a province of Spain, an autonomous community of Spain and, strictly from a geographic perspective, an archipelago consisting of four main islands-- Majorca (Mallorca in Spanish and Catalan), Minorca (Menorca in Spanish and Catalan), Ibiza (Eivissa in Catalan) and Formentera. Only the Catalan-language names are official (and thus Ibiza may best be known as such in English as this is also its Spanish name, but only Eivissa is official). The Balearic Islands, in addition, are a "nationality" in Spanish constitutional terms.

In the infobox, given that the "Balearic Islands" constitutes four separate pieces of data-- province, autonomous community, archipelago, and nationality, I have added it to Balearic footballers generally (it should be noted that "Balearic footballers" is already a Wikipedia category, one I had no hand in creating). Readers can interpret the addition as a geographic or political or national heritage indication, or some or all of these. In all cases, readers will note immediately the birth place is not on the Spanish mainland, but is rather something akin to the US equivalent of Hawaii.

One exception I have made is the most important and most numerous exception-- the capital and largest city, Palma or Palma de Mallorca (listed in Wikipedia as Palma, Majorca-- writing it in this fashion was an option, but does not accord with Spanish practice). For Palma, I have merely ensured the full name is listed, such that it is clear that we are referring to the Palma on the island of Mallorca and thus in the Balearic Islands. Similar exceptions can be made for Ciutadella, the largest city on Minorca, which can be made clearly Balearic merely by using the full name Ciutadella de Menorca. Ibiza presents a slightly different case-- it's largest city, similar to the island itself, is called simply Ibiza (and thus officially Eivissa). Though the question of whether the Spanish/English unofficial name for the town should be used, or the Catalan official name should be used is an interesting one, references to Ibiza, which redirect to Ibiza (town), need not have "Balearic Islands" added for the same reasons as Ciutadella de Menora or Palma de Mallorca. It's obviously where they are; that is, on Majora, Minorca or Ibiza in the Balearic Islands.

Thus the addition of "Balearic Islands" as a practical matter only affects relatively small towns whose locations will be unknown even to readers otherwise well acquainted with Spain. RangerRichard (talk) 16:41, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

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Requested move 23 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Of all the arguments for and against moving, only one names an actual Wikipedia guideline and in accordance, any move request that is out of keeping with naming conventions or is otherwise in conflict with applicable guideline and policy, unless there is a very good reason to ignore rules, should be closed without moving regardless of how many of the participants support it. (non-admin closure)  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 21:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

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Brandon Thomas (footballer) → Brandon Thomas (Spanish footballer) – The current title of Brandon Thomas (footballer) may be too ambiguous with another footballing Brandon Thomas (in a different code) as I've added in to the article just now. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:09, 23 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 01:12, 31 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 01:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 19:32, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. GiantSnowman 19:38, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. No ambiguity. American football players are not known as footballers. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:04, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support Americans would use footballer to mean American footballer, so contrary to Necrothesp, there is ambiguity. We shouldn't expect readers to know the intricacies of how we disambiguate here, the page should be moved and then Brandon Thomas (footballer) should be redirected to Brandon Thomas as a {{R from incomplete disambiguation}}. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:04, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Do you have any actual evidence for this or are you just making an assumption? As far as I am aware, Americans say "football player", never "footballer". On several occasions, RM has determined that "footballer" and "American football" are perfectly acceptable disambiguators for two people with the same name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:56, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. As Necrothesp stated, Americans do not use the term "footballer" to refer to any gridiron football players, we just call them "football players." We also generally use the term "soccer player" rather than the more internationally used "footballer" when referring to association football players. The current disambiguators are enough, unless you are trying to further disambiguate from Brandon Thomas-Asante. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 15:33, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

  Indeed - if Thomas-Asante chose to use his name as "Brandon Thomas" then yes, "Brandon Thomas (footballer)" is definite pdab. Obviously it will be definite R from incomplete disambiguation if another association footballing Brandon Thomas exists on Wikipedia. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:26, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

• Weak oppose, per WP:NCSP I think that the current disambiguators are fine. Although I could see why someone might also get confused, so I'm not wholly opposed.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:25, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose If there is an NFL player with the same name it should probably be moved to Brandon Thomas (American footballer) or something similar to actually differentiate between the sports. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 18:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

  Seems sensible - I never seen association football articles titled as something like "Brandon Thomas (football)" for the relevant example. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

  We disambiguate American football players with "American football". Always have done. They're not referred to as footballers. As stated above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

  As @Necrothesp has quoted on Talk:Kevin Long (footballer) as well, another RM I've started almost a year ago. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 16:40, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

  We shouldn't be expecting readers to know the intricacies of how we disambigiate. Seems like association football fans have been the only ones involved in these RMs, whereas it's more of a wider sports question (and would be good to have opinoions of some NFL fans on this too). Either way, I don't think this current setup benefits the experience of readers. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

  So, once again, would you care to provide reliable evidence that anyone describes American football players as footballers? Talk:Kevin Long (footballer) appears to have had input from gridiron football fans, who confirm we've been saying: nobody calls the players footballers. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:24, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

  In America, NFL players are called footballers or football players in media, even if Wikipedia only refers to them as American footballers. Just search any US media outlet rather than WP:BLUDGEONing every support vote here. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:16, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

  I have done, and I can't find any instances of NFL players being referred to as footballers. It's not WP:BLUDGEONing if support voters persist in claiming things backed up with no evidence. I have already said that previous AfDs have established that "footballer" and "American football" are perfectly acceptable disambiguators for different people with the same name. Go on, persuade me otherwise by citing reliable evidence. I'm happy to be convinced. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:12, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

  I've checked on a small sample of sources provided on American football and they don't type in "footballer" either. I've checked source 2, 38, 122 and 209. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 16:07, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support "footballer" means just "someone who plays football", and there are multiple people named Brandon Thomas who play football hence the disambiguator is incomplete. Disambiguating two people based on language technicalities as proposed above is just wrong. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:34, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
  • No, it means someone who plays association football or Australian rules football, but is not generally used for those who play any other sort of football. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:24, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
• Weak oppose per the arguments above, though can see the reason for nom too. Probably sufficient with the existing hatnotes to prevent any confusion for readers, and unlikely that American football editors would mistakenly use the wrong link for 'their' player as it seems to be the norm (for article titles here, at least) that 'footballer' isn't used for gridiron players. Crowsus (talk) 20:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.