Talk:Brigit of Kildare
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day... section on 17 dates. [show]|
- 1 Biography assessment rating comment
- 2 West Dakota
- 3 The "See also" section
- 4 Why Cill Dara?
- 5 Theological Problems=
- 6 Feast Day
- 7 Carmina Gadelica
- 8 East Kilbride
- 9 Miracles
- 10 Lhanbryde
- 11 Chronology
- 12 Which blooming historians?
- 13 Portuguese?
- 14 Vandalism by 87.42.205.xx
- 15 Patronage?
- 16 Brigit’s well
- 17 Ref Removed - Brigid of the Gael: A Complete Collection of Primary Resources
- 18 File:Stbrideduncan1913.jpg Nominated for Deletion
- 19 Spelling of her name
Biography assessment rating comment
Could use more references, but otherwise a B.
- Old B class. More like the new C class. changed to reflect this. -- Secisek (talk) 20:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
This entry is one of only seventeen that have won the March 2005 West Dakota Prize for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence. --Wetman 08:26, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This entry, one of an unprecedented 52, has won the September 2005 West Dakota Prize, awarded for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence.
Regarding some cleanup I did on this article:
- When relating a legend one relates it as clearly and accurately as possible without parenthetically rolling one's eyes in every other sentence. The inconsistencies can be discussed in a separate paragraph if necessary.
- Vestal Virgins were in service to the Roman goddess Vesta. Had there been Irish virgins in service to the godess Brigid they would not have been vestal virgins, regardless of the supposed similarity of the service.
Kbh3rd 04:07, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree that this article is perhaps unreasonable depricating of the legends surrounding Saint Brigid's life. Does it really matter if she existed or not? At this point, more than a thousand years after her death, it is impossible to know what really happened and the legends and folklore are equally as important as solid historical fact.Celsiana 02:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The "See also" section
The see also section is a mess. It seems to contain a badly formatted essay (look at the huge last paragraph). It should either be conciled with the rest of the article, or removed.
I tidied up the essay in the "see also" section and gave its own section of "extended biography". It may need to be refined more however or maybe just removed. Takeshi316 22:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
And I thought the article on Patrick was silly. To start, why is there no mention of Brigid's de-canonization in the 1960's?
- Because it never happened. She was never "de-canonized".Dogface 13:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I would merge this article with Brigantia as a section therein.
- Please sign your comments, stop trying to hide. There is no Brigantia article, it's just a disambiguation page. Likewise, please cite conclusive and demanding evidence to back up your demand.Dogface 13:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Why Cill Dara?
Why is always "Cell Dara" changed back to "Cill Dara"???
Kildare is "Cill Dara" in modern Irish but originally derived from "Cell Dara" in Old Irish, meaning "Church of the Oak"! This is a well known fact! In the Early Christian Ireland the name "Cell Dara" was used not "Cill Dara"!
The statement that Brigid's supposed episcopal ordination would have been valid although illegitimate is, unfortunately, theologically unfounded, and I have removed it since, from a historical standpoint, it is categorically incorrect. The Anglican Ordinations controversy raised this same idea later, an ordination is not valid if the bishop did not actually intend to ordain the person as a bishop, or priest, or deacon. Furthermore, Catholic theology currently (and historically) holds that it is impossible to ordain women -- therefore, even the bishop had intended to do it, it would not have worked. I have removed the erroneous theological statement.
There is no evidence given that Brigid did receive ordination. I cannot find any independant sources to verify it, and for such an unlikely claim, any mention of it ought to be backed by very solid sources. A primary source quotation should be supplied and cited. We can't be making up things or passing on dubious claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Totustuusmaria (talk • contribs) 20:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
According to Catholic sites, the actual feast day is January 21, not February 1. Is there any reason not to change it to the January date? See http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=1837. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.127.116.11 (talk • contribs) 04:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC).
Yes, in agreement with the above, I'll quote the Irish poet, Raftery (1784-1835). "Anois teacht an Earraigh beidh an lá dúl chun shíneadh, Is tar eis na féil Bríde ardóigh mé mo sheol." (Now Spring is here, the days will grow shorter, And after Brigid's Day, I'll head for the hills.) St. Brigid's day always signifies the beginning of Spring: 1st February.
Speaking of Catholic sites, portions of this are lifted from the Catholic Encyclopedia verbatim.
According to today's Main Page, today is the feast of Brigit of Kildare for the Eastern Orthodox Church. Is that for the Julian calendar offset or does the Orthodox church actually fest Saint Brigit on a different date? --Error (talk) 22:25, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
- Please sign your comments. The status of the Carmina as a reliquary of "pre-Christian traditions" is as much a matter of wild speculation and wishful thinking as serious scholarship.Dogface 13:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC).Her feast day ,acording to the ancint relics is the tenth of june.
Also I think mention should be made of the largest town whose name commemorates her, East Kilbride.
Cogitosus is said to have written that she blessed a pregnant woman and made her foetus disappear. Can this be verified? It's repeated on several web sites and in the Thomas Cahill book, How the Irish Saved Civilization, but did Cogitosus actually write this? It would be significant if he did, as it would demonstrate that the Church canonised an abortionist, who these days would be excommunicated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 14:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
One Friday in Garrison, Co Fermanagh, St Brigid was offered a chicken to eat. She was so enraged that she threw it into a river, where it turned into a fish. Millbanks (talk) 09:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible that the Moray village of Lhanbryde has some sort of link with St Bride? I have read that a recurring Moravian name, Maelbrigd, would mean Servant of Brigd, in the same way as Mael Colum means Servant of Columba. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 17:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, forgot to sign. Is it possible that the 'Lhan' part of Lhanbryde is a modernisation of the Welsh term 'Llan', which I have read as meaning a grant of land to the church, often by a chief. An area surrounding Lhanbryde is called 'Threipland', which I read meant something like 'the chief's dwelling'. could it be that 'Lhanbryde' was a piece of land given over by a local chief to the church, dedicated to St Bride. Interesting to note that the nearest parish is St Andrews, and was apparently rival to Lhanbryde. Could this have been friction between Scottish (St Bride) and Pictish (St Andrews) churches? I'm not a scholar, just an interested local with too many questions! Please illuminate me if any of what I've stated is erroneous. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 18:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The spelling 'Lhan-' in Lhanbryde is a curious neologism. The place was Lanbryde in 1215 (Watson Celtic Place-Names of Scotland p.274f). Lan- is the north British equivalent of Welsh Llan- which developed gemination in Middle Welsh. 'Threipland' is from Old English þrēap 'a dispute, quarrel, contention' indicating 'land over which there was a dispute', 'debateable land' (see Smith AH., 1956 English Place-Name Elements CUP). --Henrywgc (talk) 18:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
What do you make of Daniel Mc Carthy's work on the saint's chronology ('The Chronology of S. Brigit of Kildare' by D. Mc Carthy, Peritia 14(2000)255-81.)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henrywgc (talk • contribs) 12:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Which blooming historians?
In the section on links to the pagan goddess we have the sentence: "Most historians say that she was a real person whose life was embellished by imaginative hagiographers, and this seems the most likely scenario."
Firstly, who are they to say which seems the most likely scenario.
Secondly, which historians are supposed to propose that Brigid was actually a real woman rather than a matter of the Church changing a goddess into a saint for their own ends? Names of these hisorians would be handy. (14th May 2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 12:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Not to sound paranoid, but it seems like someone is adding these things just so that they can somehow disprove stories surrounding Catholic saints. I've seen these so-called "historians" "debunk" stories about the Virgin Mary, some of her apparitions, and stories about saints. No sources are ever cited, and it's obviously an attempt by some anti-Catholic to try and disprove whatever is said in these articles without an ounce of evidence.
- Just because both an ancient Arabian goddess and the Virgin Mary had long hair doesn't mean that Mary is based off of said Arabian goddess. Interpret that however you like according to the situation. Armyrifle (talk) 17:03, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
In the 5th century? What can that possibly mean? Portugal began as a medieval frontier county of the kingdom of Galicia. It's absurdly anachronistic here.Sjwells53 (talk) 21:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Vandalism by 87.42.205.xx
I've seen a ton of recent vandalism by someone at that IP address. He seems to be a little more sophisticated than the typical vandal as the last two digits of his address keep changing, meaning that any revert will just go back to one of his other edits (since they appear to be from different editors). I made a couple rollbacks/restorations, but it didn't get it all. I think I will have to go back to an edit from before this guy started his nonsense. My apologies if any legitimate edits get lost in the process, but I'm not sure of a better solution at this point. Mantisia (talk) 12:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
- Now I think he's switched to 87.38.xxx.xx addresses. If this keeps up I'll see if I can find an administrator to semi-protect the page. Mantisia (talk) 15:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC) Isaiah OJO
According to the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saints_of_occupations_and_activities, Saint Brigid is the patron saint of dairy workers and healers. The patronage list on this page includes dairy workers, but not healers. I haven't made a change, because I don't know which page is correct, but perhaps someone with better knowledge of the subject can update this page or that one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 16:00, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I think we should include something about Brigit’s well as more evidence of her pagan connections
A recent study of Ireland’s holy wells by Walter and Mary Brenneman stresses the ‘loric’ nature of well-devotions; that is, they are occasions for the transmission of lore, community knowledge very different from the official doctrines of the Church. Just outside Kildare there is a ‘Brigit’s well’, of which the Brennemans observe: There are several unique features of this well which link St. Bridget to the goddess Brigid and thus to the place and the power of the loric. Near the spring itself, which is located on the edge of a field, is a stone tablet standing upright. On one side is incised a St. Bridget’s cross, whose swastika form symbolizes the fiery sun and maintains continuity with the goddess’s association with the sacred smith and his fire. On the other side is incised a Christian cross, bringing together or syncretizing the loric and the sacred. But there is another stone image that seems forcefully to stress the loric roots of Brigid in the earth and especially in fertility as manifest through cows. As the water flows from the spring towards the glassenclosed statue of the saint, it passes into and through two stone tubes and out their other ends. The tubes bring to mind the breasts of a woman, and the water flows through them as milk passes through the nipples of the Great Goddess to her children. There is nothing Christian to mollify this symbolism. In field interviews we were told that the stone tubes are called variously the ‘shoes’ or ‘cows’ of the saint.
- Well, there are a good many things which could be improved, expanded, etc. (actually, the article's pretty dire in its present state), but sure, Brigit's cult and whatever roots it may have in earlier, pagan practices is one of those topics. In my experience, requests for expansion on talk pages don't achieve much if anything, but suggesting usable sources (as you did here) is always a good thing in the long or short run. Better still, you could create a "Further reading" section and add it there. Cavila (talk) 09:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
Ref Removed - Brigid of the Gael: A Complete Collection of Primary Resources
I have removed this reference from the and any text that was referenced by it. The reason is that this book does not meet WP:RS. The book is published by a Hutman Productions, which happens to have the same name as the author, Conrad Bladey. This is your basic vanity press, it's a self-owned publisher. Per WP:SPS, this is not an acceptable source. Thus it's gonzo. -Royalguard11(T) 03:25, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
File:Stbrideduncan1913.jpg Nominated for Deletion
|An image used in this article, File:Stbrideduncan1913.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests August 2011
|A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.|
Spelling of her name
- I notice that the title of the entry lists her as "Brigit" while the spelling "Brigid" is used throughout the entry. It seems, though, that this might have been changed, as the variants listed include Brigid but not Brigit.
- Anyone have any idea how best to render her name? Should the title be changed to match the entry? Daniel the Monk (talk) 16:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
- I know this comes over two years later, but I have "boldly" switched any leftover "Brigit"s to "Brigid" for consistency. Quick google search shows 278,000 for Brigid, and 42,000 for Brigit; (and I wonder if some of those picked it up from here). Grattan-Flood uses "Brigid", as does the Brigidine Sisters, the Orthodox Church, the Dublin Jesuits, and perhaps more to the point, the Kildare Town Heritage Centre. (I have always identified Brigit with a "T" with Brigit of Sweden.) I think User:Daniel the Monk's suggestion is on point, (but I'm not authorized to make such a change). Mannanan51 (talk) 19:49, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- Regarding the spelling of Brigit/Brigid, that's just a matter of the development of Irish orthography. The earlier spelling would have used -t, representing a palatalised /d/ sound. This would later have become written as -d. Later spelling would also have marked lenition of the -g-, becoming Brighid. Later still, reformed modern Irish spelling eliminated the -gh-, producing the modern Irish name Bríd (pronounced "breege"). The only change in pronunciation over that time is the -g-/-gh- going from a voiced guttural to a /y/ sound to disappearing. --Nicknack009 (talk) 01:02, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Nicknack is correct. All of the above spellings are "correct," depending on the era of the source material. - CorbieV☊ 22:50, 24 December 2014 (UTC)