Talk:Brother Speed

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Can anyone explain why this bike club is headed with the "criminal organisation" info box? It also has the OutlawMotorcycleGroups template, but absolutely nothing in the article suggests they are illegal or criminal. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 19:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Finding a verifiable source of criminal activity by the Brother Speed club has proved quite a challenge for me. Apart from websites parroting the Wikipedia page, the closest thing I could find was a blog post that listed Brother Speed as an Oregon "Outlaw Motorcycle Gang," and referenced "Police Estimates; Attorney General Report." The "Police Estimates" were unsourced, but the Attorney General Report was. Not only is Brother Speed is not mentioned in the Attorney General Report, but a search of the Oregon Attorney General's website said: "Your search - 'brother speed' - did not match any documents." When I searched Google for "Brother speed" and the various things they're accused of in the Wiki article-- "drug trafficking," "arms dealing," "extortion," or "money laundering," everything I found ultimately led beck to unsourced or incorrectly sourced claims in this Wiki article. I don't know whether those claims are true or not, but they certainly seem to fail the verifiability test. Jagcowan (talk) 16:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Criminal activities?[edit]

I haven't been around long enough to feel comfortable editing articles, but this one appears to be completely wrong under the "criminal activities" heading. The Wiki article says "a Brother Speed member was charged with concealing a dangerous weapon after his car was pulled over by police," but the newspaper article cited said the car was owned by a member of the Outsiders Motorcycle Club and it does not say that anyone in the car was arrested or charged with anything other than the ticket the Outsider got for driving with an expired license. Since the guns were found in the trunk, it doesn't appear that any crime was committed. It's legal to carry loaded firearms in the trunk of a vehicle in Oregon. ( I don't see any evidence of any criminal activity by any Brother Speed member in the newspaper article cited. Jagcowan (talk) 02:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

As it was originally written, the "criminal activities" section contained material misrepresentations of the source material. Prior to my edit, the Wiki article said: "On October 21, 2008, a Brother Speed member was charged with concealing a dangerous weapon after his car was pulled over by police in Eugene, Oregon. Police found a box of ammunition and two hand guns in the car. An Outsiders member and a Gypsy Joker were also riding in the vehicle at the time." However, the source cited for this information said that the car was driven my the Outsider, not the Brother Speed member. The source cited said that the Outsider was ticketed for driving with an expired license; it did not say anyone was arrested, much less charged with "concealing a dangerous weapon" or any other crime. Finally, the source cited said that the firearms were found in the trunk of the car, and carrying a firearm in the trunk of a car does not constitute "concealing a dangerous weapon" and is not illegal under Oregon law.

Since the "criminal activities" section as originally written was contradicted by the source cited in pretty much every material respect and the cited source did not describe any criminal activity by any Brother Speed member, I tried simply deleting the offending section, and provided the explanation that the source cited provided no evidence of criminal activities by any Brother Speed member. My edit was undone with the instructions: "Don't remove sourced data simply by saying 'it's wrong'. Discuss on talk page." (Never mind the fact I pointed out the specific problems with the article on the "talk" page days before I ventured in to correct the article myself.)

It seems quite silly to me that you can't delete "sourced data" when the the article totally misrepresents what the source says. It seems even sillier to include a "criminal activities" section where the activities described do not constitute a crime. However, rather than delete the mis-sourced information again and have the deletion undone again, I have gone through and rewritten the "criminal activities" section to bring it in line with the source cited. Of course, anyone reading the article will wonder why there is a "criminal activities" when the conduct described is not criminal, and perhaps someone with more editorial clout than I will either delete the "criminal activities" completely, as I tried to do the first time around, or find some actual verifiable source providing information regarding criminal activity by the Brother Speed club or its members. Jagcowan (talk) 15:51, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Criminality, again.[edit]

We have two law enforcemet sources saying Brother Speed is an "outlaw biker gang" or an "outlaw motorcycle club":

We do not have any sources saying Brother Speed engages in any criminal activity. At the moment, this is what the article says. Discuss, if desired. --Dbratland (talk) 23:28, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

  • Well that didn't last long. This edit deletes the statement that neither the Oregon nor Idaho authorities specify any criminal activities by Brother Speed. It also deletes the explanation, supported by five sources, that within this subculture "outlaw club" does not imply criminal intent. So how is the article now better without this information? I would submit that it is more helpful to fully explain the facts, especially given the large number of sources, particularly academic researchers, who say that not all so-called "outlaw clubs/gangs" are criminals. --Dbratland (talk) 23:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
The article already links to Outlaw motorcycle club where you have inserted the same questionable definition already. It should be obvious to anyone viewing your recent edits or either of these discussions that you have an agenda that you are pushing here. Several reliable sources state that Brother Speed considered to be an "outlaw motorcycle gang". By any reasonable definition that means that they are a criminal organisation. Please read WP:NPOV and WP:TRUTH again. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:54, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
If you think I have an agenda, please complain about my bias in a appropriate venue. I'm focused on sticking close to what sources actually say, not what we read between the lines. If you want to talk about me, go to my talk page and talk about me, or post a complaint at ANI or whatever board you like. Please stick to discussing editing Brother Speed on this page.
I want to add this: The Idaho Gangs web site lists five gangs: Bandidos, Brother Speed, Gypsy Joker, Hells Angels, and Mongols. Four of them have a bulleted list of crimes: Firearms violations, Assault, Murder and so on. For Brother Speed, nothing. Odd. Here's one other citation, that backs up the MSNBC claim that the Oregon Dept. of Justice calls them "outlaw bikers." Once again, no specifics whatsoever as to any crimes:
Sorry, I'm not interested in playing this game with you. The MSNBC reference is to not to "outlaw bikers" as you put in quotes above, but to Brother Speed being an "outlaw biker gang". This is the second time you have misquoted that particular story.
The second sentence from the Register Guard story is:"Testimony Thursday in the trial of a man accused of trying to run two investigators off Interstate 5 two months ago opened a door to the inner workings of the six motorcycle gangs in Oregon tagged by the government as "outlaw" organizations". The term outlaw in the context of that article clearly means "gang" and that term is also used throughout. This type of cherry picking to further your point of view simply isn't acceptable.
The Idaho website lists general criminal activities for some outlaw biker gangs but not Brother Speed. That does not mean that Brother Speed is not involved in those activities, particularly in light of their inclusion on that site and all the other available references. Please stop this. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:24, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
This is precisely the thing we disagree about. For me, the generic claim that they are "outlaws" is a far cry from proving they are a criminal organization, but for you it is enough. You say it's "obvious" they are criminal, and I say if it is so obvious, then enumerate some -- any! -- of their crimes. This type of disagreement is not unusual on Wikipedia, and it is not cause for alarm when two editors have this type of disagreement. I'm interested in hearing what others think on this question.--Dbratland (talk) 00:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
When a reference is from a law enforcement source, and it utilizes the word outlaw, it means criminal. That is obvious. Period. Hooper (talk) 02:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Dbratland, you seem to have a serious problem with misquoting. What I referred to as obvious was your agenda here. I have provided multiple reliable sources showing that Brother Speed is viewed by both the news media and law enforcement as a criminal organisation. I'm sure other editors will soon show up to offer their opinions, but please remember that Wikipedia is not the place to debate the rightness or wrongness of that label (see WP:TRUTH). Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I believe I myself did already say, "It is not meant to argue one way or there other for the truth of what they are or are not." Waaaaay back here. I'm perfectly fine with quoting what the Idaho and Oregon authorities think, but censoring the contrary ideas published by respectable academic researchers and authors is a problem for me. Deleting contrary points of view and aligning the article with law enforcement's point of view, with such thin evidence, is a problem. Does it not seem odd that this "criminal" group, founded in 1969, is forty years old, and yet we can't lay one crime at their door? Not even one? It makes no sense.--Dbratland (talk) 04:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
That type of mindset leads to OR. Please refrain. Hooper (talk) 10:01, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Brother Speed Mother Chapter[edit]

This wiki refers to Brother Speed's origins in Boise, Idaho now having its mother chapter in Portland, Oregon. The mother chapter of Brother Speed was, is, and always be Boise, Idaho. 48hardtail —Preceding unsigned comment added by 48hardtail (talkcontribs) 08:59, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Not according to this reliable source. Please read WP:VERIFIABILITY. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:08, 30 July 2010 (UTC)