Talk:Bugeilio'r Gwenith Gwyn

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Copy-paste of English translation[edit]

I have marked the lyrics with Template:Cv-unsure because I suspect that the English translation of the words may be in copyright. Presumably the Welsh words are out of copyright. This could be resolved by writing a new translation. Verbcatcher (talk) 04:21, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Wil Hopcyn died in 1741, so the Welsh words are definitely public domain. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:23, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
The attribution to Wil Hopcyn was by the now-discredited Iolo Morganwg and his son Taliesin Williams, and not to be relied on. See cy:Wil Hopcyn and Ann Maddocks. However, the Welsh words are clearly public domain. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:50, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Different versions of Welsh words[edit]

There appear to be several versions of the Welsh words. I have looked at these versions:

  1. The version in the current article (five verses)
  2. The version in Welsh Wikisource (three verses)
  3. The version in Ancient National Airs of Gwent and Morgannwg, first publication of the tune (1844) (four verses, in a different order)

Some of the differences may be errors or spelling differences between 19th century and modern Welsh. Some of them may be more significant.

Differences include:

  • Verse 1 line 2: Yn byw yn ôl fy ffansiYn caru'n ol fy ffansi.
  • Verse 1 line 8: Yn lanach, lanach beunydd!Yn lannach, lannach beunydd.O! glanach, lanach beunydd.
  • Verse 2 line 2: Neu fi â'm ffydd yn ffolach,Neu fi yn wir sy'n ffolach;Neu fi sy'm ffydd yn ffolach,
  • Verse 3 line 7: P'un ai myfi neu arall, Ann,P'un ai myfi ai arall, AnnP'un ai myfi ai arall, Gwena,

There are numerous other differences. Which version should we use? My knowledge or Welsh is very rudimentary, and I can't judge which text is preferable. However, Wikipedia demands that sources are cited, and neither the current article or the Wikisource page gives a source. Should we change to the 1844 version simply so that we can cite a source?

Can a Welsh-speaking Wikipedian please give guidance? It would also be good to add a note to the Welsh Wikisource page requesting the source.

I assume that all the Welsh language versions are in the public domain. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:16, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

My source for the version at Welsh Wikisource, which I have now added to s:cy:Sgwrs:Bugeilio'r gwenith gwyn, is Famous Songs of Wales/Caneuon Enwog Cymru 1, arranged by John Hywel (Penygroes, Gwynedd: Gwynn), third publication 1990, ISBN 0-900426-60-8, pp. 28–29. I don't have any other sources, so I can't say anything about the differences you mentioned. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:57, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
P.S. The spelling lanach is what's expected since the positive form is glân. I don't know if lannach is a dialect form or just a misprint in the book I used or what. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. As we now have a citable modern source I propose changing the Welsh words to those in Wikisource. I favour leaving the words in the musical score as they are. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
The modern source uses glannach in verse 2 as well, so I don't think it's a misprint. But it is wrong according to standard written Welsh; it ought to be glanach unmutated and lanach under soft mutation. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:11, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
As lanach and glanach are in ANAGM and on websites such as this I think it is reasonable to treat this as a misprint and correct it (with a note in the citation). If it was an archaic form then it would probably be in the oldest source. Would there be any change in pronunciation? Verbcatcher (talk) 00:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
This book also has lanach and glanach: Brown, Stuart, ed. (1995). Sosban Fach : 30 o ganeuon clwb rygbi / Sosban Fach : 30 rugby club songs. Talybont, Ceredigion: Y Lolfa. ISBN 0862431344. Not the most scholarly of sources, but at least we know it's not derived from the Wikipedia article, which it predates. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:10, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
There would be a difference in pronunciation in South Wales but not in North Wales, which may be the source of the error (the book was published in North Wales). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:07, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Presumably you mean that your source was published in North Wales. The Rugby song book was published in South Wales. The song is set in South Wales, all of which I think supports lanach and glanach. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:58, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I meant. The book with the -nn- spellings was published in North Wales. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Aɴɢʀ, I propose:
  1. Replace the Welsh text with that from Famous Songs of Wales/Caneuon Enwog Cymru 1 (in Wikisource), with a citation.
  2. Change lannach and glannach to lanach and glanach, with a note in the citation.
  3. Delete the English translation until we have one whose copyright status is clear, and which is also an accurate translation of our updated words. Add a link to an English translaton under External links
  4. Replace the music score with one based on your version below, with the ties fixed and the words changed to match the text we give, and citing your source.
  5. Remove the Wikisource link, which will then only lead to the same text as the article.
Do you agree? Verbcatcher (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
We're not paper; we have room for both the first published version and the more modern version (which appears to be the version sung in the external link as well as the version the King's Singers performed on their album Watching the White Wheat. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:44, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Done. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Tune[edit]

I have added my transcription of the score from Ancient National Airs of Gwent and Morgannwg (1844). Some of the spelling and other orthography is probably archaic, but I don't want to modernise the words until we resolve which text to use (see above). I have made the following changes to the score:

  • Bars 0, 4 and 8 - Pick-up notes changed to semi-quavers to match the rhythym elsewhere.
  • Bars 8 and at the end - repeat signs omitted (I can't figure out how to add them).

Please make any corrections to match the original score. Please discuss here any changes to modernise the words. Please don't change the words or the tune just because it is not the version you are familiar with. See Help:Score for information on the score syntax. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:10, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I made some corrections to the words, but based on the copy of ANAGM you linked to. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:09, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Here's the tune in Famous Songs of Wales:
\relative c' { \time 3/4 \key d \major \tempo 4 = 90 \set Score.tempoHideNote = ##t
d8 fis a4. fis8       %  1
g8 g fis4. g8         %  2
a8 fis d4. fis8       %  3
a8 a4. r8 fis         %  4
g8 g b4. g8           %  5
fis8 fis8 a4. fis8    %  6
fis8 e e4. d16( cis)  %  7
d8 d4. ~ d4           %  8
d8 d d'4. b8          %  9
g8 g g4. fis8         % 10
e8 e e'4. cis8        % 11
a8 a4. r8 fis8        % 12
g8 g b4. g8           % 13
fis8 fis a4. fis8     % 14
fis8 e e4. d16( cis)  % 15
d8 d4. ~ d4 \bar "|." % 16
} \addlyrics {
Mi sydd fach -- gen ieu -- anc ffôl
Yn byw yn ôl fy ffan -- si,
My -- fi’n bu -- gei -- lio’r gwen -- ith gwyn,
Ac ar -- all yn ei fe -- di.
Pam na ddeu -- i ar fy ôl,
Ryw ddydd ar ôl ei gi -- lydd?
Gwaith ’rwy’n dy weld, y fei -- nir fach,
Yn lan -- nach, lan -- nach beu -- nydd.
}
I find this easier to sing. Is there any way to tell the code not to rearticulate the second note of a tie? Slurs and ties look the same, but they function quite differently. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
When working on another score I looked for and failed to find a way to not play tied notes separately. It's frustrating. I'm not sure where to request that this is fixed. In this case I would replace the tied crotchet in bar 8 with a rest, and omit the final tied crotchet. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:40, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
I have resolved the tie problem. You specify a tie with a tilde. You need to change this:
 d8 d4.( d4) 
\relative c' { \time 3/4 \key d \major \tempo 4 = 90 \set Score.tempoHideNote = ##t d8 d4.( d4) }
to this:
 d8 d4. ~ d4 
.
\relative c' { \time 3/4 \key d \major \tempo 4 = 90 \set Score.tempoHideNote = ##t d8 d4. ~ d4 }
Verbcatcher (talk) 00:44, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Great, thanks! I've added that info to Help:Score. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:15, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Who wrote the words?[edit]

I think the words are traditionally attributed to Wil Hopcyn, one of the lovers in the story. However, according to the cy:Wil Hopcyn article, Iolo Morganwg produced a forgery and attributed the words to Wil Hopcyn. The Ann Maddocks article attributes the words to Wil Hopkyn and Dafydd Nicolas. I would edit this article accordingly, but I don't have the sources cited in cy:Wil Hopcyn and Ann Maddocks.

If you have access to either of these books then please check the citations and update this article. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:33, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

The Dictionary of Welsh Biography article on Wil Hopcyn says that the words are probably by Iolo Morganwg, possibly based on old old source. Iolo's son Taliesin ab Iolo connected the song with the traditional story of Wil Hopcyn and Ann Thomas. We could add this and cite the DWB, but I am concerned that The Welsh Academy Encyclopaedia of Wales (cited above) is a more modern reliable source which gives a different author. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:47, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

The Literary and Historical Legacy of Iolo Morganwg 1826-1926 - Marion Loffler - 2007 - University of Wales Press - ISBN 978-0-7083-2113-3

page 114 - " ... Many of the traditional tribannau of the county were attributed to Wil Hopcyn, a minor poet of whom not much was known at the beginning of the nineteenth century. But his distant relative Iolo turned him into one of the most romantic figures of Welsh literature by fathering upon him the song ' Bueila'r Gwenith Gwyn ' ( ' Watching the Blooming Wheat ' ), which described a tragic love affair between him and Ann Thomas ( the Maid of Cefn Ydfa ). ... " - note 203

203 - Cadrawd, History of Llangynwyd Parish, pp. 109-13. A full version of the tale, including the reference to Wil Hopcyn and Iolo as relatives, as well as the poem itself, appears in ibid pp. 89-108, 113-14. For an account of how Iolo enhanced this figure and attributed the poems to him, see TLIM, pp. 251- 9. [ TLIM = Traddodiad Llenyddol Morganwg - G J Williams - 1948 - Caerdydd ]DaiSaw (talk) 23:25, 5 March 2016 (UTC)