Talk:Butlerian Jihad/Archive 1

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False statement

"The original Dune novel states that the Jihad ended in human victory at the Battle of Corrin. The leader of the Jihad then renamed his royal house "House Corrino", and declared himself Emperor of the Known Universe. The Emperors of the Empire of a Million Worlds were all of House Corrino for the next 10,000 years, until the events of Dune and the ascension of Paul Atreides."

There are two false statements in this sentence: neither was the winner of the Corrin-battle Sheuset ecevit the leader of Butlers Djihad nor were all emperors in the following 10000 years of Corrino descendance. There would also be Harkonnen Emperors and those did not rank among the least of the Padischahs! At a certain time who became new emperor would be decided by the Sardaukar who showed the tendency to install their favourite members of the court on the throne. The first padischah sheuset I. himself had nothing to do with Butlers Djihad as is deoicted here. In FH´s original timeline which was explained in detail in the dune encyclopedia Sheuset was a powerful local leader who united the warrior tribes of the Sardaukar on Salusa Secundus under his command. When Salusa was "discovered" by one of the great houses (this was already after Butlers Djihad) they recognised the deadly fighting prowess of the Sardaukar and intended to use them as mercenaries. But the Sardaukar (noew equipped with spaceships) conquerec and destroyed their "discoverers" and afterwards started a conquest of the whole known universe. The great houses felt they were in danger and united their forces to defeat sheusets sardaukar but failed because sardaukar proved to be invincible in close combat. The final battle of the Conquest was the battle of Corrin. After the battle Sheuset was declared to be emperor.He set the ruling laws for the next 10000 years, most notably the great convention and faufeluchs-the imperial caste system. The Battle of corrin was not a battle of Butlers Djihad! It took place long after. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.178.248.112 (talkcontribs) 09:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Are the Harkonnen emperors and other material in your comment from the Dune Encyclopedia? Although I am not too sure about the Butlerian jihad and the ascendancy of house Corrin being tied together, as you claim it was not, we need references to the original books (not something written by friends or son, ie. McNelly and Brian&Kevin). Lundse 08:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

School of mentats

In buttlerial Jihad the 1st memtat is actually trained by Erasmus, the excentric machine mind for fun. The mentats of course tell different story later, but I do not think there is any discontinuation, because the mentats did not want to know about their TRUE origins. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.100.124.219 (talkcontribs) 11:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I clipped off the statement that connected the Bene Tleilax to mentats, since the Mentats were (became) their own school - just like the Swordmasters of Ginaz. As far as how the Jihad changed the Tleilaxu - it allowed them to start fresh after being decimated by scandal. A conversation by Erasmus and his captive Tleilax Master (for lack of a better term) touched on replacing flowmetal with a biological equivalent - maybe a hint at Facedancers? DrSad 21:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

When?

When did the BJ happen? (In Dune time reckoning, of course--BG or AG).

It started around 200 B.G. and ended in 108 B.G.. Then the Battle of Corrin took place in 88 B.G. which could be considered the end of the Jihad. Konman72 22:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting account in the Dune Encyclopedia

Which as a regrettable result of conflicting with recent lucrative prequels means it's permanently out of canon and will forevermore stay out of print! That said -- it does paint an interesting, and largely unrelated picture of an alternate Butlerian Jihad. Is there any reason that rapidly-fading alternative should not be at least noted somewhere here? Pseudo Intellectual

You make a good point; why not have content that conflicts with canon explored in the article for the Dune Encyclopedia itself? And perhaps some other interesting quotes/excerpts. As it's out of print, many people have never seen it. I don't know why that article isn't already full of such info, as there is so much controversy on the subject.
I did notice that the Encyclopedia talk page has some contributors suggesting such info be put under the Dune discrepancies article, but I disagree — the scope of that article is really canon works, that is, inconsistencies among Frank Herbert's own books, and then the Brian/Kevin books. The Encyclopedia falls out of that scope. TAnthony 03:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I just recieved a near-perfect condition copy of the Dune Encyclopedia for my birthday. Joy! I didn't realize how rare it is until I started reading about it! I will cherish it always. And, I must say, I drastically prefer the events described in the encyclodia to the events that are currently accepted as "Canon". A philosophical "enslavement" to machines and a genuine jihad, rather than literally being slaves to machines. The whole computers are evil and will kill us thing is so old and overdone now, reading the Dune Encyclopedia's interpretation was a breath of fresh air. This version of the events should at least be discussed, in my opinion, even if it isn't canon. (Although, personally, it will always be "canon" to me...)PiccoloNamek 09:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Disambig page

I've reverted the link to the new Butlerian Jihad (disambiguation) page and instead put the Dune Encyclopedia reference within the article itself. This seems to be the convention among Dune articles with such references, and it does seem the most intuitive way to go. I think the real purpose of a disambig page is as a gateway to a term/name used in several unrelated topics; an alternate Dune reference doesn't seem to count. But I'll certainly leave the disambig page alone in case it is useful to someone. TAnthony 17:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Reason for name "Butlerian"?

Probably the original meaning of "Butlerian" was actually a reference to the anti-machine chapters in Samuel Butler's classic book Erewhon... AnonMoos 05:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

That's a very popular idea among certain factions of the fan base. (I'm rather partial to it, myself.) Unfortunately, we need a citation from FH's writings or interviews supporting it.
There is no quote in the original books that I can find stating that the name came from the leader or figurehead of the Jihad. Jehane Butler is an invention of the (real-world) authors of The Dune Encyclopedia, and Serena Butler must be assumed to be one of BH & KJA, pending provision of definitive proof to the contrary. --SandChigger 11:18, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Has anyone ever written anything proposing this theory? We could just say something like, "Writer so-and-so theorizes that ..." and give a reference. -- Macduff
I don't know of any. Was there something about it in the O'Reilly book? Or the Touponce? (Haven't read the latter, or reread the former in a while.) But, yes, we should be able to include something that way.
Unfortunately, anything not based on FH's own writings or things he said in published interviews—even if by a respected critic—can be dismissed (by those so minded) as simply speculation. :( --SandChigger 20:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
There's also the "Some fans speculate that..." option. At least that way the idea would get mentioned. I think that if people want to dismiss the idea, that's fine, our job is just to present all the info and let the reader decide for themselves -- like with the Dune Encyclopedia vs. KJA/BH interpretations. But I also think the possible Erewhon influence/tribute is worth mentioning. In general, I think that there should be more academic-type content to this article, not just plot summaries. The Butlerian Jihad was relevent to all kinds of luddite, technophobia, anti-technology circles and/or references and may have been used in that context. It'd be great to track some of that stuff down. -- Macduff 05:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry but that isn't an option since we are to avoid weasel words, but if you find any reliable source discussing it then they can be included in the way you mentioned earlier. Konman72 09:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with Konman on this one. Blogs by fans, newsgroups, discussion boards, etc., are not acceptable sources, even for (true) statements like "some fans speculate that...". --SandChigger 16:27, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Landsraad ref in Rise of the thinking machines section

The Landsraad, by OLD Canon, predates the post-Jihad religious riots by 2,000 years. Please see my comment here. --SandChigger 05:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)