Talk:Canada national football team (disambiguation)

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved; big majority, started 31 days ago, no discussion in the last 21 days Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:05, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

– There's pretty clearly no primary topic for this. Until recently, "Canada national football team" was is the title given to the American football team. When most Canadians talk about football, they're referring to Canadian football. When most of the rest of the world (except the U.S.) talks about football, they're referring to soccer/association football. I recently moved the American football team to Canada national American football team, and I consider this move request, if successful, to be vindication of that move. Note that a similar disambiguation page exists at United States national football team pbp 22:09, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Also note that every article about a national side in American football competitions is COUNTRY national American football team, except for this one. Current title is inconsistent with naming conventions. pbp 22:43, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment. I reverted your move, as it was done without discussion. Specifically, while IFAF international games use American football rules, Football Canada is actually the governing body for Canadian football. This is also an WP:ENGVAR matter as "football" in Canada refers to the gridiron game; neither soccer nor the other sports are called just "football". That move, and therefore this one, aren't helpful and just introduce unnecessary confusion.--Cúchullain t/c 18:54, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
    • If it wasn't clear enough, I oppose this move; it's just a solution looking for a problem that doesn't actually exist.--Cúchullain t/c 18:57, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
      • But a problem does exist in that the rest of the world doesn't think of gridiron football when they use the word "football". What Canada itself refers to as football is hardly the only relevant metric, as most Wikipedia users are not Canadians. In the United States, football refers to gridiron football and United States national football team is a disambiguation. It should be the same for Canada. Furthermore, the page you move-reverted as about a team that competes in American football competitions rather than Canadian ones and is tagged with an American football team category, so my move was acceptable in that regard pbp 20:16, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
The problem is that the Canadian national "football" team is involved in both Canadian and American football, so adding "American" is misleading. The "rest of the world" is unlikely to be confused by Canadian word use on a Canadian article; at any rate it doesn't seem to be enough of an issue to justify adding unnecessary and misleading terms into the title. Readers looking for the soccer team can already find it easily through the dab page. We could potentially add an extra hat note linking to it, in which case they'll find it in as few clicks as if this were a dab page.--Cúchullain t/c 20:54, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't know where you're getting the idea that this football team plays Canadian football. The only competition mentioned about the team participating in is the IFAF Cup. As such, it is primarily consituted for playing American football, and should be titled as such. Furthermore, any playing of Canadian football by the team (not its players) should be dealt with in a separate article. Whether or not its players play American football or not in the offseason is not relevant at all. pbp 23:02, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't know how to be clearer: my argument is that while IFAF games use the American rules, the fact that this team is organized and operated by the Canadian football system is significant. Both sets of rules are easily recognized as "football" on either side of the border. As such adding "American" is potentially misleading, and accomplishes nothing; with the dab page and hatnote, people looking for the soccer team will find it just as easily as if there were "Canada national football team" were the dab page. Yes, it's a unique case, but if you're really worried about forcing consistency, well, you can breathe easier knowing that this is likely to be the one case where this format is needed for a football team.--Cúchullain t/c 16:27, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
        • Most of the English-speaking world refers to association football as "soccer", so whatever the non-English world thinks is football doesn't matter. Rugby in NZ is football, AFL in Australia is football, Gaelic football in Ireland is football. In Canada, in FRENCH, football isn't even soccer either, it's gridiron. -- (talk) 08:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment this is a malformed multimove request -- (talk) 08:54, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose Move. The word football is awfully ambiguous, moreso in Canada perhaps than most other countries considering we have our own variety of gridiron. PKT(alk) 14:36, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Um, if it's ambigious, shouldn't you be supporting moving the disambiguation page to just "football"? pbp 14:55, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Speaking for myself I'd be more apt to support that, if disambiguating the football team article didn't introduce so many problems. This isn't an "American football" team per se since the organization actually governs Canadian football and the players and staff are all from that sport. It's not a "Canadian football" team since IFAF games are played with American rules. It's just a "football" team, and the only thing that would be called just "football" in Canada. People looking for the soccer team (or the others) can find them through the dab page, and now the hat note. Again, this is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.--Cúchullain t/c 16:01, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
There's a lot wrong with the above comment, but I'll make two points:
  1. It is an American football team, because it competes in American football tournaments playing by American football rules.
  2. The above comment ignores WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. It should only carry the title "Canada national football team" if most people (from around the world, not just Canada) are looking for them. Enough people from around the world think football=soccer to deny this PRIMARYTOPIC. The "problem" is that this title doesn't fulfill PRIMARYTOPIC, so the claim that "this is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist" is patently false pbp 19:56, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
No, not really. The team represents the Canadian football system; it is organized by the Canadian football governing body and all its players, coaches and staff come from that system. It does play by American football rules in IFAF competitions, but that doesn't mean it's only an American football team. As for PRIMARYTOPIC, there's no question the soccer team is more prevalent as a subject, but it's not called the "Canada national football team" in the local variety of English. And it's not as if gridiron football were so obscure among English speakers that non-Canadians would be astonished to find that the article on the "Canadian national football team" plays the sport known locally as "football". It's simply not ambiguous enough to insert an unnecessary and misleading disambiguator into this title. If they want the soccer team, well that's what the hat note and dab page is for. This is indeed a "solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist," and in fact it creates a worse problem than it would ostensibly solve.--Cúchullain t/c 20:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
That's just your opinion, which is wrong and not based in either policy or fact. You ignore not only policy, but facts, like the fact that team plays American football, not Canadian. As such, your comments should be ignored. No matter how many times you say that the Canadian national American football team doesn't play American football, the fact remains they still play in the IFAF, an American football competition. You are deliberately adding misleading information. pbp 20:37, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Bolding isn't helping your case. Please calm down. I specifically said the team plays by the American football rules in IFAF competitions; however, this does not mean it is only an "American football" team. It's a football team as the word is understood in the local variety of English--Cúchullain t/c 21:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
But it is though. It is formed primarily for competition in tournaments in American football, just as the Brazil national American football team and Mexico national football team, articles titled as such. Every article about a national side in American football competitions is COUNTRY national American football team, except for this one. What the players do when they aren't playing for the national American football team is irrelevant. Calling the Canadian national American football team anything but that is like referring to Michael Phelps as a video gamer. What Michael Phelps does in the offseason is not germane to his categorization; and the same with the players of American football. And furthermore, since the team plays American football and Canadians think of Canadian football as football, no it isn't an ENGVAR case. pbp 22:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Speaking as a Canadian, I can say that when we think of "football", we are thinking of gridiron football, not any specific code of it. Resolute 00:43, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
I think that's the heart of the matter. Canadians recognize this as "football", they wouldn't call any of the other team articles "football"; people looking for those can find them just as easily through the hat note or dab page.--Cúchullain t/c 03:08, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Having read the back-and-forth since my previous answer, I would adjust my position to Opposing the change in name of this disambiguation page because "football" is so ambiguous, but Supporting moving Canada national football team to become Canada national American football team. As somebody else said, "this is a malformed multimove request" PKT(alk) 14:39, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Note to closing admin: Cuchullain's comments are factually inaccurate in that he is claiming a team doesn't play American football. That team participates in the IFAF World Cup, an American football tournament. As such, they should carry less weight, and probably be ignored entirely. pbp 20:37, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
I did not say that, and I think you know it.--Cúchullain t/c 21:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Actually, it is. I said "It is an American football team", and you said "No, not really". Elsewhere, you said that the team shouldn't be characterized as playing American football, which is pretty much the same thing pbp 22:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
You appear to be misreading my posts, intentionally or unintentionally.--Cúchullain t/c 16:27, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I am in agreement with the "solution in search of a problem" argument here. Resolute 00:43, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
There is a clearly defined problem: that the American football team (and it's an American football team, it's never played a down of Canadian football as a team) isn't the primary topic, and that the title as is violates naming conventions for the topic. pbp 05:17, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Your so-called "clearly defined problem" has already been refuted by WP:ENGVAR. In Canadian articles (along with American and Australian), we call it soccer because that is what it is called in Canada. The rest of the world is irrelevant in this context. Thus, in the Canadian context, "football" means gridiron football. And since there is no such thing as a national Canadian football team, there is likewise no ambiguity present. In truth, you would have been better off trying to argue that there is no primary topic. Resolute 00:29, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose, since there is no "Canadian national Canadian football team". bd2412 T 14:48, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
There is a Canadian national association football team, and a Canadian Australian rules football team, though. And enough people are looking for them when they type "Canada national football team" that this isn't the primary topic. Whether or not there is a Canada national Canadian football team or not makes no difference. pbp 14:51, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
I disagree. To quote 30 Rock, "Alright hosers, I want all twelve of us fighting for every meter on all three downs! We're going to make this a Boxing Day the prime minister will never forget!" Cheers! bd2412 T 14:54, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
It is impossible to tell how sincere you are from that 30 Rock quote, but you can't determine PRIMARYTOPIC just on something Cheyenne Jackson said on a sitcom. pbp 14:57, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
My original rationale still stands. Cheers! bd2412 T 15:20, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
'Cept I refuted it with a primary topic argument above. Since the soccer team is more well-known, and soccer is called football in most of the rest of the world, the soccer team denies the American football team primary topic on its own pbp 15:31, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
On this point, I agree with Purplebackpack89. The article about the team that plays American football should differentiate them from the other forms of "football". PKT(alk) 15:56, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose What a ridiculous request. Takes something straight forward and makes it a million times more confusing for a reader. -DJSasso (talk) 19:47, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Calling it "ridiculous" was uncalled for. And, no, it doesn't make it a million more times confusing. The title is exactly the same as every other national side for American football. The disambiguation at "football" is the same as the U.S.. What's confusing is that this is one of two pages titled as "national football team" that isn't a soccer team. pbp 20:28, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Having both countries in the title would confuse most readers. Especially those from Canada. As a Canadian we would just use the term football to mean any gridiron version so throwing in the American is an unnecessary confusion. I think what you need to learn is consistency isn't always a good thing. There are many cases where you don't want to be consistent. This is one of them. And having the name at football should be confusing to no one since the lead sentence mentions the type of football being played. -DJSasso (talk) 23:21, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, it did, before you unnecessarily changed it from "American" to "gridiron". The team doesn't play any variation of football but American rules: 11 players, 4 downs, etc pbp 23:51, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
You have a source that proves that? I happen to know they play exhibition games against teams in Canada which would use Canadian rules. Not to mentions using the word gridiron eliminates the argument as it includes both versions thus removing the POV pushing you are clearly doing by trying to stamp American on the pages. Secondly was reverting your change. -DJSasso (talk) 00:06, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
The team was formed to participate in football competitions played by American rules. Perfectly reasonably to call them an "American football team", particularly when every other nation's Wikipedia article is NATION American football team. That's not "clear POV pushing", it's a fact. pbp 00:27, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
And you still don't see where calling it an "American football team" when the team is from Canada is a massively confusing term. Blows my mind. (ie its a Canadian football team, it isn't from the US.) -DJSasso (talk) 00:36, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
a) The current title is confusing, because it's an article titled "football team" that's not about an association football side (i.e. England national football team, Scotland national football team, India national football team
b) "American football" is the name given by non-North Americans to that sport. Because of that, we have the titles Mexico national American football team, Brazil national American football team, Sweden national American football team. None of those titles are any more confusing than this one.
c) Canada national Australian rules football team. Mull that over pbp 01:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
It's called "soccer", not "association football" and definitively not "football". In most of the English world (as opposed to the non-English world) it is "soccer", except for Britain, India, Pakistan. "Football" is AFL in Aus, Rugby in NZ, gridiron in Canada amd USA, Gaelic in Ireland. Soccer is used in South Africa, Australia, NZ, USA, Canada. We should stop basing the usage of "football" on the non-English world. -- (talk) 22:53, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Support Wait, what? I really don't understand this opposition. "Canada national football team" is an ambiguous term, same as United States national football team. The only way the status quo would be correct is if the gridiron football team (which indeed seems to be an American football team, oddly enough) were the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and I don't see any arguments that it is. It certainly doesn't look like one. --BDD (talk) 19:33, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
My objection is that inserting "American" generates confusion - though IFAF games use the American football rules, Canada's team is a product of the Canadian football system. It's not an "American football" team, it's just a "football" team, and it's the only thing that would be called that in the local variety of English. The need to disambiguate (primarily with the soccer team) isn't so great that we need to insert this potentially misleading terminology, especially since the hat note now gets readers looking for the soccer team where they're going in the same number of clicks as if it were a dab page.--Cúchullain t/c 20:21, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
It's a team that plays American football, which I would say makes it an American football team. But I wouldn't object to a name like Canada national gridiron football team, which is perhaps more appropriate for a team of Canadian players of Canadian football who also play American football. I still don't think this team is a primary topic, whatever we call it. --BDD (talk) 20:39, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
As I said above I'd be more amenable to something like that if the payoff was getting more readers where they were going quicker. With this being the only thing Canadians would call the "national football team" and the soccer team easily found in the hatnote, I don't see that payoff. As a descriptive title it shouldn't be any more misleading than it needs to be to get people where they want to go. Solution looking for a problem, thy name is "Canada national American football team."--Cúchullain t/c 20:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.