Talk:Carmel-by-the-Sea, California

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Requested move to Carmel, California[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move.Cúchullain t/c 21:14, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


Carmel-by-the-Sea, CaliforniaCarmel, California – Two recent WP:RM's have nudged things in this direction, and it seems timely to have this discussion once and for all. →gab 24dot grab←19:21, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Thus, since 'Carmel, California is already sufficiently disambiguated, there is no need for additional disambiguation, that is, "over-precision" is unneeded and undesirable and 'Carmel-by-the-Sea, California' is inferior to 'Carmel, California' per Wikipedia's guidelines (and no basis for WP:IAR springs to mind). →gab 24dot grab← 19:21, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

  • Oppose, for the myriad applicable reasons given during this same conversation last year, as well as those from last month. Seriously folks, threevotes on naming in the last year and a half? As was said by someone then - "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California is the way it should be, as per the standard approach. Only high-population, uniquely-named American cities have the state omitted." And yes, Carmel-by-the-Sea is the official and correct name, well used in books and articles and the like. But it's a small town with a tiny population. To the common reader it could be in Oregon for all anyone knows. Thus "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California" is going to be a)absolutely correct, and b) most helpful to the reader (and isn't the reader the most important factor here?) Smatprt (talk) 21:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose – commonname notwithstanding, it is unusual and inappropriate to name an article on a city by the city's nickname instead of its real name. The consistent pattern of City, State serves our readers well, and I have never heard of it being considered as "over-precision". Dicklyon (talk) 23:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
First of all, "Carmel, California" is not a nickname. It was the name of the settlement until relatively recently (1916?). Furthermore, even currently "Carmel" is still the long-recognized and more-common form of the City's formal full name (see WP:OFFICIALNAME). The short-form is demonstrably used by the municipality itself, and at all levels of government. Consider:
  • CarmelCalifornia.org[1] ©Carmel Chamber of Commerce
  • CarmelCalifornia.com[2] ©City of Carmel, Official Visitor Site
  • Carmel.CA.US[3] ©City of Carmel Official Web Site
It's slightly unusual to use a short-form of a government entity's formal name, but so what. You likely know that Rhode Island is a shortened form of the state's full name (Rhode Island and Providence Plantations), and New York County is better known and article-titled as Manhattan (the county is coterminous with the island). And again, Carmel itself uses the short form; the city's official visitor guide is titled, "Guide to Carmel"[4]
Per WP:COMMONNAME, the article should be titled with Carmel, California rather than Carmel-by-the-Sea, California. --→gab 24dot grab← 21:36, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Support again. Even if we were to prefer the official name over the common name, the city uses "Carmel" on their (official) web site. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:00, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment This should really should be clarified - the city seal says "Carmel-by-the-Sea" and on the website home page, it distinctly says: "CARMEL-BY-THE-SEA, CALIFORNIA OFFICIAL CITY WEBSITE". In fact, the city's homepage [5] is quite clear about this, listing the address as: Carmel-by-the-Sea City Hall, P.O. Box CC, Carmel-by-the-Sea, CA 93921. So can we please stop inferring otherwise? (Yes, the city abbreviates for marketing purposes, including web addresses. But they are very clear about their official and preferred name.) Smatprt (talk) 01:35, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
  • No, "Carmel, California" is not a mere "marketing" tool for "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California"; in fact nearly the opposite is closer to the truth... The settlement has been named Carmel/Carmelo since the 1600s, and the flowery "Carmel-by-the-Sea" moniker was first added to a particular neighborhood by 20th-century real estate developers. It was retained and officially adopted for that neighborhood when that neighborhood incorporated in 1916. --→gab 24dot grab← 21:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Question: Is the city hall on Carmel's Monte Verde Street responsible only for the "square mile" of Carmel-by-the-Sea — or for all of greater Carmel? If the former, then the article's title should probably be "Carmel-by-the-Sea"; if the latter, then presumably it could be "Carmel". In either case, it might be well to add "California", as there are many "Carmels" in the United States and around the world, including — in the Middle East — the original "Carmel", a couple of thousand years older than California's Carmel. Nihil novi (talk) 01:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
  • The editor cites a document from one constituent community within Carmel, California (according to the state and county, the communities are Carmel Woods, Hatton Fields, Mission Fields, Mission Tract, Carmel Point, Carmel Hills, and Carmel-by-the-Sea); all of those neighborhoods are in Carmel, California, so it seems odd to abandon the 1600s name of the entire settlement and pretend that one neighborhood's relatively new name should supersede it. It would be like featuring a document showing the very real name Battery Park City and pretending that should be the name for the article discussing New York City. --→gab 24dot grab← 21:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Poor analogy, because "Carmel, California" is not an abbreviation of "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California". Instead, this RM notes that the name "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California" is overly precise since "Carmel-by-the-Sea" is a subset community within "Carmel, California" and the article actually discusses the entire town of Carmel, California rather than the one community within it. --→gab 24dot grab← 21:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
  • oppose Carmel-by-the-Sea is name of the town. Request a moratorium/salt on renames for at least 2 years after this; several rename discussions in 1 year is ridiculous.--KarlB (talk) 12:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
    • I presume you mean the name of the city proper. But this article is not about (just) the city proper - it's about all of Carmel, and the title is misleading. See discussion below. The reason there is so much discussion is because there is just as much confusion. It needs to be sorted out. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:02, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
      • How's that? The entire lead is about the city proper. There's no hint of the article scope being "all of Carmel". Dicklyon (talk) 04:46, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
        • No hint? About half the article deals with the history and famous residents entire area (many actually lived outside "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California" but inside "Carmel, California").
  • Oppose. I believe that non-"by-the-Sea" Carmel is administered not by the city of Carmel-by-the-Sea but by the County of Monterey. If that is the case, I would support the above-proposed moratorium. Nihil novi (talk) 20:52, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Not exactly. The state and county have assigned the "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California" incorporated municipality to administer many public services for the surrounding unincorporated communities, all of which have "Carmel, California" addresses. In fact, most of the population and most of the residential acreage of "Carmel, California" is actually OUTSIDE the borders of "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California". --→gab 24dot grab← 21:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. There is general agreement that the short form is more common, and user gab-24DOT-grab makes a persuasive case that this usage is also more correct. According to the U.S. Postal Service, zip code 93923 (population 12,986) is within the city designation only of "Carmel". The area within zip code 93921 (population 3,057) may be properly referred to as either "Carmel" or "Carmel-by-the-Sea". The comma-California ending makes the title look like a postal designation, which is an additional reason to follow USPS usage. Finally, the current form amounts to double disambiguation, or least gives that appearance. The article needs to be moved to a title that looks more professional. Kauffner (talk) 06:43, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

USPS 93923[edit]

Carmel, California is USPS zip code 93923, which entirely surrounds the smaller 93921 Carmel-by-the-Sea, California zip code. Interestingly, when the U.S. Postal Service releases a new commemorative stamp, the stamp is issued from the local post office with the most significance to the stamp honoree; early in 2012, a new USPS stamp commemorating a local landmark was issued by the post office in Carmel, California (that is, NOT a post office in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California); see the official U.S. Postal Service web site. Again, the tiny Carmel-by-the-Sea, California zip code is entirely surrounded by the larger Carmel, California zip code of 93923 (and 93922, plus Carmel Valley is 93924). The zip code map also makes it obvious that many Carmel landmarks are OUTSIDE the 'Carmel-by-the-Sea' enclave but within greater Carmel (which is STILL "Carmel, California"). --→gab 24dot grab← 19:39, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

The following major communities constitute "Carmel, California":
  • Carmel Woods 170 acres
  • Hatton Fields 300 acres
  • Mission Fields 100 acres or less
  • Mission Tract 100 acres or less
  • Carmel Point 150 acres
  • Carmel Hills 115 acres
  • Carmel-by-the-Sea 640 acres
Of all these "Carmel, California" communities, none but the last is actually inside the city limits of "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California". Just last year, a formal review entitled "City of Carmel‐by‐the‐Sea 2011 Municipal Service and Sphere of Influence Review" explicitly stated, "While the City limits of Carmel‐by‐the‐Sea contain approximately 640 acres, or one square mile, the [area of] unincorporated [communities] contains approximately 850 acres. This relatively large Sphere is primarily developed as detached single family residences". In other words, the communities of "Carmel, California" total about 1500 residential-developed acres, and only about forty percent of Carmel's residential-developed acreage is actually "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California". It seems obvious that an article on a town cannot be named for just one of its many communities, even if that namesake community happens to be the only incorporated community among unincorporated communities. --→gab 24dot grab← 16:38, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

"...by the Sea"[edit]

The settlement alongside Carmel Bay and Carmel River was known as nothing but "Carmelo" and "Carmel" during the 1600s and the 1700s and the 1800s; there are dozens of historic references in print and none uses the name "Carmel by the Sea". Ironically, the poetic expression "Carmel by the Sea" has been around for thousands of years, from the Bible at Jeremiah 46:18. The flowery long name was first used by 20th-century developers of area real estate, and when the exclusive core-neighborhood incorporated in 1916, they differentiated themselves from the surrounding community by officially naming their tiny municipality with the longer name. Thus, the tiny 'Carmel-by-the-Sea' neighborhood is surrounded by the older and larger community of 'Carmel, California'. Extending the enclave name as though it referred to the entire community would be like renaming 'Plymouth, Massachusetts' as 'Plymouth Rock'. --→gab 24dot grab← 19:39, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that the tiny square mile municipality is "Carmel-by-the-Sea", but much of "Carmel" is unincorporated Monterey County. Which is the topic of this article? Just the municipality? Or the surrounding unincorporated "Carmel" as well? --Born2cycle (talk) 20:12, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
The elephant in the room is that Carmel's beaches, parks, and pre-20th-century history are entirely OUTSIDE the tiny 'Carmel-by-the-Sea' neighborhood/municipality. Of course, these attractions are in Carmel, California (that is, the so-called 'greater Carmel area' actually is 'Carmel, California' ). I would not oppose an article split, but if the topic remains a single article then its title cannot remain intentionally inaccurate. --→gab 24dot grab← 20:33, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
"... Carmel's beaches, parks, and pre-20th-century history are entirely OUTSIDE the tiny 'Carmel-by-the-Sea' ..." This is not an accurate statement. Carmel Beach and most (if not all) the major parks are within the limits of Carmel-by-the-Sea. Smatprt (talk) 13:53, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Ah, I see an objection on a technicality and a laughable counterclaim, so I'll qualify and elaborate.
  • The elephant in the room is that the vast majority of Carmel's beaches, parks, and pre-20th-century history are entirely OUTSIDE the tiny 'Carmel-by-the-Sea' neighborhood/municipality.
Technically, the 'Carmel-by-the-Sea' city limits do include Carmel Beach Park (including Carmel City Beach), Devendorf Park, Piccadilly Park, First Murphy Park, and Forest Hill Park for a GRAND TOTAL of maybe 60 acres of beaches and parks in the City of "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California". But that 60-acre TOTAL of several scattered parcels is dwarfed by the 300-acre 'Carmel River State Beach' (which is outside "Carmel-by-the-Sea" but inside "Carmel") and also by Point Lobos State Natural Reserve's 550 acres of Carmel Bay coastland (often described as "Carmel, California" but entirely OUTSIDE "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California"). And of course the historic Carmel Mission is inside "Carmel, California" but outside "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California". --→gab 24dot grab← 16:38, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, I'm with you on the general argument that Carmel > Carmel-by-the-Sea, but I think the claim that Point Lobos or anything south of the Carmel River is part of Carmel is a stretch, unless maybe you're just going by the postal designation. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:40, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
In a related subthread, I noted the formal review entitled "City of Carmel‐by‐the‐Sea 2011 Municipal Service and Sphere of Influence Review", which describes the fact that Carmel, California has multiple constituent "communities" (of which Carmel-by-the-Sea is one) and that the state and county have assigned the incorporated "City of Carmel-by-the-Sea" to administer many public services for the City's "Sphere of Influence": the unincorporated communities which are also part of "Carmel, California" (yes, that is how addresses in all those communities are addressed). The review notes: "If Carmel‐by‐the‐Sea annexed all of the Sphere of Influence, the City would more than double its existing size and population. ...Included in the Sphere of Influence are the unincorporated communities of Carmel Woods, Hatton Fields, Mission Fields, Carmel Point, and the beach area immediately north of Carmel Beach. ...the City of Carmel‐by‐the‐Sea has no plans to request a change in its Sphere of Influence". So, the fact remains that the term "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California" can only be applied to less than half the area and/or less than half the population of "Carmel, California". The article should abandon the overly precise name and move to the WP:COMMONNAME. --→gab 24dot grab← 21:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
"the fact remains that the term "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California" can only be applied to less than half the area and/or less than half the population of "Carmel, California"." Right, and that's a more specific way of stating the point about which we agree: "Carmel > Carmel-by-the-Sea". Or, if you prefer, "Carmel > Carmel-by-the-Sea * 2".

My objection is to including Pt. Lobos or anything south of the Carmel River as being part of Carmel. Nothing in the "Sphere of Influence" list is south of the river. For example, both Carmel Meadows and Carmel Highlands are south of the river and have Carmel in their names, but are not considered party of Carmel. Neither is Carmel Valley, which is of course to the east. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:24, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Kind of agree, but based on defined "Sphere of Influence" rather than the river; see my comments below. --→gab 24dot grab← 16:05, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Please, User:24dot, try not to be so condescending. Especially when your facts are skewed. Your "Ah, I see an objection on a technicality and a laughable counterclaim..." was uncalled for. You stated that Carmel's beaches, parks, and pre-20th-century history are entirely OUTSIDE the tiny 'Carmel-by-the-Sea. Now you admit that no fewer than 5 parks (and you missed at least one that I am aware of) and over 60 acres of beaches and parkland are actually IN the city limits. That's not a technicality, thats a fact. To then call the clarification "laughable" is truly odd. Especially followed by the suggestion that Pt. Lobos State Reserve and the Carmel River State Beach are part of "Carmel". They are California State Parks, owned and operated by the State of California, with support services by Monterey County (in an emergency, Carmel Police do NOT show up). These parks are not "in" Carmel or any of the bedroom communities you have mentioned. Smatprt (talk) 07:51, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Forgive me, but no one travels to Carmel, California to visit the less-than-one-acre Devendorf Park. Forgive me, but it is laughable to suggest that "major parks" (Carmel River State Beach and Point Lobos State Natural Reserve) are inside the tiny 'Carmel-by-the-Sea' boundaries.
The addresses of the major parks in Carmel, California are as follows:
  • Carmel River State Beach; Carmelo Street; Carmel, California 93923
  • Point Lobos State Natural Reserve; Route 1; Carmel, California 93923; or
  • Point Lobos State Natural Reserve; Highway 1 & Riley Ranch Road; Carmel, California 93923
Again, the major parks of "Carmel, California" are outside "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California"; I'd earlier considered 'Carmel City Beach' (part of 'Carmel Beach Park') to be outside the city limits because technically the beach itself mostly is outside, but that's a distinction unworthy of its distraction. --→gab 24dot grab← 14:40, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
who suggested that either State Park is within the city boundries??? Please stop throwing red herrings into this conversation. I also see that you are changing your wording are now referring to "major parks". Its hard to have a conversation when you keep moving the goalposts. Smatprt (talk) 23:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, it was noted above by user:24dot that "the state and county have assigned the incorporated "City of Carmel-by-the-Sea" to administer many public services for the City's "Sphere of Influence"". Well, that may be in print somewhere, but actually owning a house in "Carmel Woods", I can assure you (and its completely verifiable) that as far as services go: police calls are taken by Monterey County Sheriffs; the trash is administered by a Monterey company, fire and ambulance come from the City of Monterey or CalFire; and the only water comes from Cal-Am. I am actually at a loss as to naming one single "service" that the city of Carmel-by-the-Sea provides outside the official city limits. Smatprt (talk) 07:51, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

BTW - I, too, would not oppose an article split. It was suggested above but no one has started the process. In the meantime, I would suggest having "Sphere of Influence" a section in the current article. As noted above, it is an official term, and would help to clarify the relationship that the city has with its adjacent bedroom communities. Smatprt (talk) 07:51, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

It would seem that the editor concedes that this article does/should/will discuss the entire multi-neighborhood town of "Carmel, California" rather than the one incorporated neighborhood of "Carmel-by-the-Sea, California" which is entirely within Carmel. Regardless of whether a future article (specific to the Biblical-named, 640-acre neighborhood) is or is not eventually created, it seems plain that this article should not remain inaccurately named but should be moved to "Carmel, California". --→gab 24dot grab← 14:40, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Please don't put words in my mouth. (And wow, for a relatively minor matter such as this, you sure seem to be fired up.) To be absolutely clear, I support leaving the article named "Carmel-by-the-Sea", the city's official name, and the primary topic of this article. I also support adding a section called "Sphere of Influence", to mention the (primarily) non-notable bedroom communities adjacent to the city. Smatprt (talk) 23:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
I now favor (rather than "would tolerate") separate articles, if we can agree on some ideas I've suggested further down in this thread... --→gab 24dot grab← 16:05, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Two articles[edit]

Okay, this discussion is way to similar to that about Las Vegas. Having two articles about the small area known as Carmel would be silly, and certainly would not serve our readers. It's better to cover the Carmel area including the small Carmel-by-the-Sea municipality in one article that clearly explains the difference. But then the topic of that article is Carmel, and a sub-topic incorporated in the article is Carmel-by-the-Sea. Thus the title should be Carmel (disambiguated to Carmel, California), not Carmel-by-the-Sea, which is the title of a sub-topic. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I see where you are going, but here is my thinking. The City of "Carmel-by-the-Sea" is what the great majority of this article is about. Give it another read with this in mind. It (the city) is notable on many fronts. A quick glance at the lead spells it out pretty plainly. The city's primary attractions, Carmel Beach and the 3 historic cultual centers, are all notable, and are all contained within the city limits. These bedroom communities, on the other hand, have very little notable about them, with the exception, of course, of the mission, which already has its own article. (Also there are plenty of California missions that are not situated in their 'downtowns', but bear the namesake of the area they are in.) Having said all this, and after another perusal of the article, it seems to me that the primary topic of the article is, indeed, the city of Carmel-by-the-Sea. This topic is repeated over and over throughout the article. The 'sphere of influence' is a non-notable subtopic. Nothing more. Smatprt (talk) 00:02, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
And I completely agree with you about Pt. Lobos. I also extend that to any State Parks that border the area. Smatprt (talk)
As I said today above, I now favor (rather than "would tolerate") separate articles (one article on the municipal entity and a separate article on the entire area), if we can move toward:
Any thoughts? If things are moving in this suggested direction, there seems little reason to keep this WP:RM open much longer. It will be more than a week before I can write the new article 'Carmel, California', but it would be my pleasure to do so and a very likely candidate for a nice WP:DYK featurette at completion.--→gab 24dot grab← 16:05, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Sounds confusing and redundant. I still think the entire topic could be dealt with much better for our readers under one article entitled Carmel, California. I suggest expanding this article to that article, including the following sections, arranged approximately as follows:

  • History (existing)
  • Communities (new)
    • City of Carmel-by-the-Sea (new)
      • Dogs (existing)
      • Unusual laws (existing)
    • Carmel-by-the-Sea Sphere of Influence (existing)
    • Carmel Highlands
    • Any others (new)
  • Arts and culture (existing)
  • Education (existing)
  • Media (existing)
  • Geography (existing)
  • Demographics (expanded)
  • Planning and environmental factors (existing)
  • Marine protected areas (existing)
  • Notable residents (existing)

If that article is too long, then split it. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I would not oppose a combined article discussing all the communities and the area in general if such an article was properly titled (that is, as 'Carmel, California'). --→gab 24dot grab← 19:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
It's kind of a Catch 22. I suggest we expand the article first, then discuss whether to rename or split. But first let's see how others feel about expanding the scope of this article. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
The section on "Communities" must be done anyway, so preliminarily that can be at this article, such as:
I will be away for most of the next week; editors should not construe as disinterest my likely lack of participation during the coming week. --→gab 24dot grab← 20:59, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
I recommmend this article follow the layout of the well-known WP:USCITY guideline. Thousands of other US City articles already follow it. • SbmeirowTalk • 06:17, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Image deletion[edit]

I have reverted the deletion of the Buddy Image. I believe this deletion is the continuation of a personal vendetta by the deleter. I would ask for immediate dispute resolution if this becomes conflict continues. RespectfullySmatprt (talk) 09:38, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Just because we had an issue before does not negate the fact that you have a conflict of interest in regards to placing this image on this page. It is promotional in that you are directly connected to the subject. It is a recorded fact at ANI archives. Just beacause you have requested I not use your real name, does not mean I cannot raise the COI issue here. Our policies on COI have changed and are stricter with regards to direct editing of content you have a direct connection to. I have been going out of my way to work with you in good faith, but you continue to edit war and argue at almost every turn.--Amadscientist (talk) 18:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

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