Talk:Caversham, New Zealand

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Featured article Caversham, New Zealand is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 30, 2009.
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Date Process Result
March 23, 2009 Peer review Reviewed
May 19, 2009 Featured article candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article
WikiProject New Zealand (Rated FA-class, Mid-importance)
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References[edit]

The offline references don't have page numbers at the moment. XLerate (talk) 02:21, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Think I've fixed them all (and added the ISBNs). Grutness...wha? 11:14, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Looks good now. XLerate (talk) 23:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Infobox?[edit]

Is there an appropriate infobox to use for this article? Grutness...wha? 11:24, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Two options are {{Infobox New Zealand suburbs}} or {{Infobox Settlement}}. XLerate (talk) 11:58, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
The subusrbs one looks more appropriate - I'll use that. Grutness...wha? 22:24, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Some brief comments[edit]

Not a full peer review, just a quick look and some thoughts. See User:Chzz/10

  • Lede "from the central city to the Otago hinterland." - what is the 'central city'? I guess Dunedin; can that be clarified, maybe in the 1st sentence? There's some other places in the article where it says "The City" - maybe it's clear if you're a Kiwi, not for others?
  • "no longer any railway stations or halts in Caversham, the railway does provide the suburb's most important industry"
    • What is a halt?
  • Maybe clarification "no longer any public railway stations) (because I guess there's some for the industry)
  • "north of the saddle " - clarify or wikilink saddle

*"drill hall" - clarify and/or wikilink done

--  Chzz  ►  14:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

  • As explained in the article Dunedin, the city's urban area has an inner region and an outer region, separated by a circle of hills, and beyond that is an area of largely open countryside which is officially within the city limits. The inner city (usually known as the central city) occupies a coastal plain at the head of Otago Harbour and spreading out to the southwest. Beyond the hills that formed the rim of the Dunedin Volcano are the outer suburbs. With one or two exceptions (now fixed), the article refers to "the city" when referring to the entirety of Dunedin, and the "inner city" or "central city" when referring to the inner part of the city. It seemed redundant to add all that information into an article on one suburb (it would need to be similarly explained in many articles on Dunedin's suburbs) when it is already dealt with in depth at Dunedin.
  • A halt? It's a halt. A railway halt (which makes sense since it's to do with the part of the article on the railway). I can't think of anything else to call it - as far as I know they're called halts worldwide. (a few seconds later) I see that in the US they're called flag stops, if Train station#Halts is to be believed. I've added a link.
  • No longer any industrial ones either, except for the workshops, which hardly counts as either a station or a halt (a depot, maybe, but nothing else).
  • The saddle is explained (and now wikilinked) in the previous paragraph.
Cheers, Grutness...wha? 23:11, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
I think I understand the difficulty; the problem I had was, "Geography" starts off "Caversham lies in a valley in the west of the city's main urban area, four kilometres southwest of the city centre.". Being a bit stupid, I had no idea that 'the city' was Dunedin. It doesn't actually say the Dunedin is a city (in the Lede), and - not being from NZ- I find it confusing. I do appreciate that the wikilink clarifies, but IMHO the article needs to stand on its own. I hope I'm making sense? --  Chzz  ►  19:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm from the UK, and I'd honestly never heard of the word 'halt', in the context of a railway. I think, if I understand that link correctly, that it's what we would call 'a small station'. I think the link gives sufficient clarification. This is also why I queried the 'no stations' part, I guess. From the UK perspective, I think of a halt as a station...hence my confusion there.
Saddle is clarified now
No problems with your partial revert; I understand.
Good luck with the article; if I can help more, any time, please drop me a note. Cheers! --  Chzz  ►  19:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your help, and sorry if I sounded non-committal about some of it. I've changed the wording of the intro and first section to clarify that the city is Dunedin - hopefully that'll solve the problems. Grutness...wha? 22:19, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Churches[edit]

As a resident of caversham, there is an incorrect statement about two churches... i left out one because i do not have the correct references. Could someone please cite the correct church on playfair st, despite former references of it possibly being a baptist church? It's on the corner of pencarrow and playfair. The BAPTIST church is on Surrey and south road (i'd know this i live RIGHT across the street, but i can't confirm this via book or website references.)

External Links[edit]

--XxReikoxX 21:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The sources I have (Charles Croot's book) list a Gospel Hall on the corner of Playfair and Pencarrow. And I see the problem with my referring to the Baptist Church in Playfair Street - the section on that church is headed "Caversham baptist Church, Playfair Street" but further through mentions that it was originally in Playfair Street but moved to new premises in South Road in 1904. The photo in the book definitely looks like the building on the opposite side of Surrey Street to the school, and that matches the description given. If you see someone in the next day or so taking a photo of that church, it's likely to be me :) Grutness...wha? 22:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC) (over in St. Clair)

Caversham School[edit]

Does anyone have any info on caversham school? - i dont remember if it was on the article or not. I suppose listing that carisbrook hotel is just on the corner of south road and the road that Carisrook is on. --XxReikoxX 22:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by XxReikoxX (talkcontribs)

Nothing on the school, but it should be easy enough to find out something online (there is a little bit in the article, but not much). There is a risk of having too much info, though... if we add in the Carisbrook hotel we'd have to add the Waterloo and the Fitzroy as well - are they all notable enough to have info on them in the article? Grutness...wha? 23:41, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I've added a tiny bit on both Caversham School and College Street School from their websites - and a passing note on the three pubs (are there any others?) Grutness...wha? 00:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

List of schools in Otago, New Zealand has the two primary schools mentioned, plus Sara Cohen School. Yellowpages lists two hotels, Carisbrook and Waterloo. XLerate (talk) 00:34, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I've just driven through Caversham - there are four pubs - the three I mentioned plus Mitchell's Taven (the Fitzroy is right on the boundary with South Dunedin and may be listed as being in SD). I'd forgotten about the Sara Cohen school. Grutness...wha? 04:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Second peer review[edit]

Finetooth comments: This has become a most interesting article, well-written, well-illustrated, stable, apparently comprehensive. As I read through this again, I made a few minor proofing changes. In addition, I have suggestions, mostly quite minor.

Lead

  • "It was a separate borough until 1904, but is now administered as part of the city of Dunedin." - "Now" is vague. "... but since then has been administered..." would solve the problem if that is what is meant.

Geography

  • "Calton Hill, a spur of Forbury Hill, lies to the south, on which are located the suburbs of Calton Hill, Corstorphine and Kew." - Suggestion: re-cast this to get the modifier and the thing modified closer together, perhaps like this: "To the south lies Calton Hill, a spur of Forbury Hill on which the suburbs of Calton Hill, Corstorphine and Kew are located."

Lookout Point

  • A "3.39-hectare (8.4-acre) forest reserve is located on the upper slopes" - It might be better to round the 3.39 here to 3.4 so that the metric and imperial measurements are rounded to tenths. Alternatively, if the 3.39 is important, you might round the imperial units to the nearest hundredth.
  • "it is home to various native bird and invertebrate species" - Wikilink invertebrate?

History

  • "In the early days of Dunedin, it was impossible for a dray to reach the Caversham Valley... ". - Wikilink dray by linking to "wagon" with a pipe to "dray"?
  • "The advent of the Central Otago Gold Rush of 1861 led to rapid changes, with thousands of people using the road on their way to and from the gold fields." - The "with plus -ing" construction is deprecated. Suggestion: "The Central Otago Gold Rush of 1861 led to rapid changes when thousands of people began using the road on their way to and from the gold fields."

Caversham Project

  • "This database is unique in its size for a historical study within New Zealand or Australia" - This is a claim that's apt to be questioned. I looked at the source document, which supports the 9.4 Gb claim but doesn't seem to say anything about the database being "unique in its size for a historical study within New Zealand or Australia". How do we know that the unique size claim is factually accurate?
  • "historical study within New Zealand or Australia, containing some 9.4 Gb of data" - Spell out and wikilink to gigabit (Gb)?
    • done (gigabytes, not gigabits :), and reference added Grutness...wha?

Governance

  • "This organisation served as a council for Caversham until May 1877, when it became a borough. - Wikilink borough?
  • "At a national level, Caversham is part of the Dunedin South electorate. Its current MP is Clare Curran (Labour)." - This paragraph, a one-liner on my computer screen, would probably be better merged with the paragraph above it.

Demographics

  • "Caversham was known as "The carpenters' borough" because of the high proportion of skilled workers working in the building trade." - To avoid "workers working", perhaps something like this would be better: "Caversham was known as "The carpenters' borough" because of its high proportion of skilled workers in the building trades."
    • amended
  • "Located on its present site since 1962, the school dates back to the early 1860s, and has a current role of around 80 pupils." - Should that be "enrollment" rather than "role"?
    • should be "roll", not "role", but "enrollment" may be better still. Done
  • "It was officially part of Caversham Primary School until 1959, when it was declared a separate institution, and now has a roll of about 250 pupils." - I see it's spelled "roll" in this sentence. If "enrollment" is not the usual term in New Zealand, perhaps a link to something like "roll call" would help make this clear to foreigners.
    • roll is more colloquial, perhaps, but is fairly standard. Enrollment is more universally understood, though. in this case, it can be shortened to simply "...and now has about 250 pupils"
  • "This school caters for special needs pupils from primary school age through to adulthood." - Wikilink "special needs" to special education? Also, "caters to" rather than "caters for"?
    • Hm. "Caters for the special needs of", but "Caters to pupils"? I think "Caters for" is standard NZ English for both. yes to the wikilink, though
  • The public houses seem out of place in this section. Perhaps they should be moved to the Economy section, which includes other retail businesses. The schools also seem a little out of place in Demographics, though less so than the pubs. Perhaps rather than creating a separate short section called "Education", you might change the section head to "Demographics and education". Or maybe a short Education section would be best. I'm not sure.
    • Could be right. I've given education a separate heading and expanded it to mention the nearest secondary schools, but it's still a very short section Grutness...wha?

Economy

  • Wikilink "joineries" to joiner with a pipe?
    • Done, and the same done for automotive engineering Grutness...wha?

Sport

  • Wikilink "knockout competition" to "single-elimination tournament" with a pipe?

Landmarks

  • "Carisbrook is used primarily for rugby union, but has also been used for a number of other sports... " - Delete "a number of"?
  • "Caversham Baptist church is located at the corner of South Road and Surrey Street, opposite Close to Caversham School." - Since "Close" is capitalised, I'm not sure what this means. It might just be a typo, a sort of echo of "opposite" accidentally left in from an earlier draft.
  • Wikilink pediment?
  • "This imposing building, dates from 1893, but is currently under threat of demolition." - A couple of thoughts here. "Imposing" has a slightly peacock flavor. Should "dates" be "dating"? "Currently" is vague. Something like "as of 2009" might be better.
    • All done. The "opposite Close" was a result of editing on the fly. I started to write "opposite" then realised that made it sound like it was either diagonally opposite or on the opposite side of the main road (South Road). They are actually both on South Road, on the opposite sides of Surrey Street - "close to" is much simpler. The sentence about the church under threat still seems a little unqieldy, but I think it's an improvement Grutness...wha?

References

  • Many of the references lack the details needed for featured articles. The citations to web sites should include, if possible, author, publisher, date of publication, url, and access date. I like using the "cite family" of citation templates because they remind me of what's needed, and they automatically add the correct punctuation and arrange things in the proper order. Their use is optional, and your method is fine, but the missing data needs to be added. For example, citation 22 has only two bits of data, the title and the access date. But when I click on the link, I see that the publisher, University of Otago History Department, and the publication date, 2003, are easy to find.
  • You mentioned not being certain about how or whether to cite maps as sources. Yes, you can. I often cite maps, including title, edition, publisher, date of publication, section or page number, and ISBN, if these are all available. The cite family of templates has a "cite map" member that's handy. You can find this family of templates at WP:CIT and use them for a quick list of what's normal to include even if you don't actually use the templates in an article. (If you decide to use the "cite" templates, don't mix them with "Citation" templates or other variants; use the same system throughout any single article.)
  • WP:MOSNUM says to make the date formatting within the references consistent. The existing references use yyyy-mm-dd in places and d-m-y in other places. I don't think it matters which you choose, but you'll need to make them consistently one or the other to get through FAC. Probably yyyy-mm-dd would be the best choice since most are already in that format. The date formatting in the main text also must be internally consistent, which I think it already is. The formatting in the main text does not have to be the same as the formatting in the references.
  • all still to be done, but I'll get onto it shortly Grutness...wha? 01:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Captions

  • MOS:CAPTIONS says in part, "Most captions are not complete sentences, but merely nominal groups (sentence fragments) that should not end with a period. If a complete sentence occurs in a caption, that sentence and any sentence fragments in that caption should end with a period." - Some of the captions in this article are stand-alone fragments and need to lose their terminal periods.

If you find this review helpful, please consider reviewing another article, especially one from the Peer Review backlog at WP:PR, which never seems to be empty. Finetooth (talk) 21:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your help on this. The article is much improved and is hopefully on the way to being a potential FA candidate :) Grutness...wha? 01:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Typo?[edit]

In the Geography section it says that William Larnach lived at "Hillside", in the notable people section it says William Cargill - I'm guessing that the second is correct? dramatic (talk) 02:28, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

D'oh. That is what I believe they call a "brain fart". Yes, it's definitely Cargill - and Larnach was never a captain. Grutness...wha? 06:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Fixed. Grutness...wha? 06:58, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Test cricket[edit]

I changed "test" to "Test" when referring to Test cricket as per WP:CRIC#STYLE. -- Mattinbgn\talk 06:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Never knew that style tweak. Grutness...wha? 07:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Vandals[edit]

I think some teenagers are messing with this FA. Taylor is cool and the local Auth "Gay town" might need to be changed. I wouldn't know how to do it without breaking it.excusesofpuppets...30/11/2009@21:28GMT+12:00

There's lots of people watching it while its on the front page, so vandalism is removed pretty quickly. See WP:REVERT for how to do so yourself.-gadfium 09:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

planned new stadium[edit]

I know this isnt' a CAVERSHAM thing, but it may be good to note it because it's the demise of carisbrook in the eyes of some residents.. XxReikoxX - The Visual Asia Geek (talk) 07:25, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I've added a paragraph under "Sport" which should hopefully cover it. Grutness...wha? 00:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Notability?[edit]

I was very suprised to see this on the front page - it's really a small, boring, part of a small city. I lived in Dunedin for some years, and never thought about Caversham at all. Is this really notable? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 11:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Well the article is a good example of what can be achieved on even the most... i dunno what the correct word is... mundane? topics... Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Any subject can have a featured article if its article is well-enough written, no matter how boring and ordinary the subject may appear on the surface. In fact, the job of good article writing and editing is to make those subjects interesting to readers. There are numerous reasons why Caversham is notable - and they are hopefully explained by the article. Grutness...wha? 00:08, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Berkshire heritage[edit]

The statement "its name reflects his Berkshire heritage" is a little misleading - when the name was chosen, the British Caversham was in Oxfordshire. It is true that it was just over the river from Berkshire, so it's not strictly untrue, but it does imply that the British Caversham was in Berkshire at the time. Warofdreams talk 14:16, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Good point. I've reworded that section. Grutness...wha? 00:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

'Tis St NOT Saint[edit]

While the article looks good - and well done to all who contributed - please note that for historical reasons St Clair is NOT spelled Saint Clair; for some reason over the past few years lazy office types send mail labled ..... Saint Clair, but there's no need for this to happen in Wikipedia! ;-) Cheers Minorhistorian (talk) 10:40, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually LINZ gives: "Place Name Detail / Saint Clair / * District: Otago / * Description: SUBURB: Component part of a town / * Lat: -45.9136 / * Long: 170.4840 / * NZMG Easting: 2314666.9 / * NZMG Northing: 5474300 / * NZMS 260 sheet: I44" In the absence of any authoritative research (and not even Herries Beattie has been able to find out the source of the name) LINZ's spelling should prevail. Even if the spelling "Saint Clair" is incorrect the article should still reflect the correct spelling, as in the same way Whanganui was under "Wanganui" until the spelling was officially corrected. Daveosaurus (talk) 09:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
As someone who lives there, it certainly is spelt Saint Clair, though the St Clair spelling is very widely seen (comparison with W(h)anganui is of limited use, since the official spelling is "Whanganui or Wanganui"). Same with Saint Kilda. Grutness...wha? 08:14, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Registered heritage buildings[edit]

Shall we add a table for the registered heritage buildings as per the Colombo Street article? Schwede66 20:31, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

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