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Former good article Charlemagne was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.


From the paragraph "Submission of Bavaria":

however Charlemagne went on acquiring other Slav areas, including Bohemia, Macedonia, Moravia, Austria and Croatia.

With a reference of:

Historical Atlas of Knights and Castles, Cartographica, Dr Ian Barnes, 2007 pp.30&31

What is Macedonia doing in that list? I have never seen a map of the Carolingian Empire (including the three present in this article) that extends either the empire itself or its vasals that far to the south-east. Nor does the linked article about the region of Macedonia mention any Carolingians.

--Martijn 2001:980:4818:1:200:FF:FE4E:353A (talk) 11:35, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Strange. The statement is clearly wrong, as Macedonia was either Byzantine or Bulgarian during Charlemagne's reign ([1], [2]). Maybe the editor intended to write Pannonia, although it is already mentioned elsewhere in the text. Iblardi (talk) 17:34, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Imagery: paintings and coins[edit]

There's currently a disagreement about the accompanying image of Charlemagne on this wikipage. One user wants to use a painting created long after Charlemagne was dead while another user insists that's inaccurate and wants to use an image of a coin minted around the time of his reign. Both images, to me, look like idealizations of Charlemagne: the painting, since it was done later in a Romantic style; the coin, since it makes Charlemagne look like a Caesar from 1st century CE Rome. I'm curious what other people think about this. Does the main image of Charlemagne need to be historically accurate? If so, how do we know it is? Do either of the images have a place on the page? Yojimbo1941 (talk) 14:34, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

As a general rule, its better to use contemporary (or near contemporary) images - whether from coins, manuscripts, statues, or whatever - than to use idealized images from long after the time period. The problem with using 1000 year later images is that the reader may think that it's based on some sort of description or that it depicts the subject accurately. With a coin image (or other non-realistic-looking image) it's clear that this cannot be an accurate likeness, which avoids misleading the reader. A coin image at least shows the subject as it would have been most familiar to people of the time period. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:41, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Excuse the brevity, but I'm typing by mobile phone. I'd echo Ealdgyth's comments on this one. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:31, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Interesting points, thanks. Yojimbo1941 (talk) 21:05, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Why is his name not listed?[edit]

Why is his name not listed here? I added it, and it was deleted. This article is about "Karl der Große", but his name exists nowhere! Pure RACISM! (talk) 23:19, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Re-added it. Everyone knows his name was Karl. BTW-even ultr-retard wikipedia lists his name: lol (talk) 23:32, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
I suggest that you stick to the "ultr-retard Wikipedia" if you truly believe that, over 1200 years ago, he called himself Karl der Große, that the language spoken then in what is now Germany has more in common with modern German than with English (or Dutch, etc), or that the words der and Große existed as such in the 8th century. Surtsicna (talk) 00:26, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
And where is it now? Doesn't it seem a bit silly even for the biggest french hardliners, that the german name "Karl der Große" is not even mentioned? And yes i believe that the language spoken over 1200 years ago has more in common with modern German than with English. We have the Wikipedia in Ripoarisch for example, an old-frankish dialect close to Karolus' language. You still have that dialect in Aachen, where Carolus lived. I can understand this language as a german, can english people say the same?
And to follow your argument about the language changes over the years. Why do you use his name "Charlesmagne" then? Did the french language even exist 1200 years ago? And why are so many (for example slavian) languages that use "karol" as word for king and not "charly"? The coin in the article also has a "karolus magnus" print, not charlesomething. The german name "Karl der Große" definetly needs to be inserted. I don't mind if the spanish call him Carlos and the english call him Charles. But if the german name of a frankonian emperor, who was speaking a frankish language (neither english nor french and before he learned latin), and made a city to his capital that also still exists in germany doesn't even get mentioned in this article, then something is definetly wrong with it. Maybe it would also increase the chance to become a featured article, like the other articles that contain his german name "Karl der Große". For better neutrality I would also suggest to use the neutral latin name "C/Karolus Magnus" as first. (talk) 18:50, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
This is the English Wikipedia. In English, this figure is referred to primarily as Charlemagne. Acknowledging that does not require anyone to be a "French hardliner", whatever that is supposed to mean. That said, I don't see any reason not to mention the German Karl der Große, especially as his capital was in what is now Aachen, though if we are going to list many names by which he is known, I think it would be better to do so elsewhere than in the intro sentence. Eric talk 23:28, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Good questions on top. The answers of Eric shows that the writer owns little respect compared with the origin of historical people. Coracias garrulus (talk) 17:48, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
I strongly oppose listing the German name. Charlemagne did never call himself "Karl der Große". His language was a Franconian dialect, whereas standard German comes from High German. Both are about as much related as Franconian and (Old) English. If you really want to add another language, add Dutch, which actually does come from Franconian. Or better yet, find out what the Franks themselves called him. "Karl der Große" has as much value to this article as "Karel de Grote", "Karel de Grutte", "Karl de Grote", "Karel de Groete" or "Karel de Groussen", all Germanic languages of which most are much more closely related to Old Franconian than German. It has even less value than شارلمان (what his Cordoba enemies called him) or Carl Micela (what his English contemporaries called him). As for the name Charlemagne, it indeed comes from Latin Carolus Magnus and as such is not Germanic, but it happens to be his English name, and this happens to be the English Wikipedia article. Aethelraed Unraed (talk) 17:46, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
Karl never called himself "Magnus" or any other equivalent of "der Große" at all. That's an epithet that only came up in the 10th century. He probably called himself simply "Karl", "Carolus" or perhaps "Carles ~ Charles", depending on the language he was speaking. His native language was probably a Franconian dialect of Old High German, and he also spoke Latin and perhaps Early Old French. Compare the Oaths of Strasbourg, which are in all three languages. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:25, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
See Charlemagne#Language. The assumption that Charlemagne, more than 1200 years ago, spoke Modern German (some modern dialect or even Standard German) in any shape or form is pretty hilarious, though it's also sad that most people have no clue how much languages change over such a long time. Decades ago, having attended a German school, I think you were likely to be confronted with a sample of Middle High German at least once and had at least a vague and very general idea about the history of German. Apparently some people haven't even heard of Old and Middle High German or at least have no real idea of their significance. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:53, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree also that his German name should be added. I cannot even believe this is a discussion.HeinrichMueller (talk) 01:48, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Literacy or lack thereof[edit]

I'm finding conflicting information on whether or not Charlemagne was illiterate. The one source that indicates this in the article is one I don't have access to and the ones I've found through Google aren't solid references. This also conflicts with a source I found indicating that he was literate:'s%20children%20education&f=false Does anyone have a good primary source or scholarly article that could solve this? The edit I made leaves it pretty much at "highly regarded education" which seems to be consistent among sources. Yojimbo1941 (talk) 14:28, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't have any sources off hand (I shall look later), but I do recall that Charlemagne was able to pen his signature, but was too old to learn to adequately read and write at all even though he desired to.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 18:31, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for responding. Yeah, I saw that too but it seemed like it was more of a popular opinion than a scholarly one, at least from the sources I was able to find. Although, without seeing more scholarly works I can't really back that statement up. I'm not proposing that the entire section be rewritten but now I'm really curious about his level of literacy, especially since he was such a proponent of education.Yojimbo1941 (talk) 20:05, 16 March 2016 (UTC)


  • French Roman Catholics
  • German Roman Catholics

Seriously?? We don't even know where he was born and nationalists still feel they should ascribe nationalities to him. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 10:30, 23 May 2016 (UTC)