Talk:Charles VII of France

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The sword that used in the crowning of Charles VII?[edit]

This ceremony sword was used on sunday, 17 July, 1429, where Charles VII was solemnly crowned. It should be placed here. This is 100% authentic image of the sword.


black and white [1]


color [2]


Charles' position after 1422?[edit]

The article says:

Under the Treaty, King Henry of England ruled Northern France through a regent in Normandy and southern France by the Dauphin Charles from his fortified castle at Chinon.

I'm not really sure how to parse this sentence. Did the treaty see Charles ruling southern France in the name of his nephew as a sort of viceroy? Or did he rule southern France by virtue of his position there, as an explicit enemy of the English? --Jfruh 03:06, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Capetitian Dynasty[edit]

and in such bold type, too. I thought capetitian was an auburn hair color with reddish glints... --Wetman 04:01, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Marie de France?[edit]

The historical writer Marie de France, as I know it, lived in the 12th century. Although there might have been another woman by the same name as Charles's daughter in the 15th century, the wiki link should not refer to an incorrect article as it does at this time. As I have come late to the discussion and editing of this page, I leave it to you the make the required modification for that matter. Thank you.

Scottish involvement[edit]

Mention is made above of the "British occupation", and in the article itself about the inability of the French to field an army between 1422 and 1429. It amazes me that somehow the Scottish involvement in this war is completely forgotten by the French. The English, not the British, occupied Normandy etc. I am not just a chippy jock whining about the conflation of the terms English and British, because to do so actually completely misrepresents the situation. The English were prevented from effectively extending their influence south of the Loire between 1422 and 1429 by the Scottish armies put into the field by James I. c.f. the Battles of Bauge, Verneuil, Cravant etc. - all conflicts between English armies and French armies primarily composed of Scottish forces sent to assist France by Scotland under the terms of their military alliance. Between 1419 and 1425 17,000 Scots embarked for France, and another 6,000 in 1428 (under the terms of the treaty of Perth) to fight against the English, inflicting their first defeat in the war at Bauge in a conflict that prevented the English penetrating south of the Loire to Chinon. The Scottish 4th Earl of Douglas was made Lieutenant-General of the French forces and made Duke of Touraine. The Earl of Buchan was made constable of France. Sir John Crichton was made governor of Chatillon. Charles VII married his son and heir off to the daughter of the king of Scots. One of the six bishop attending his coronation was Scottish, as was his bodyguard. Jeanne d'Arc's escort to Orleans was composed entirely of Scottish forces. Even her banner had been made by a Scot, Hamish Powers, in Tours, in gratitude for which Jeanne persuaded the dignitaries of Tours to provide his daughter's dowry. As a result of the debt the French owed the Scots for giving them time to recover Scots merchants were given preferential terms in Bordeaux.

None of this is controversial or a matter of interpretation, it is all amply attested by primary historical record and is not disputed by serious historians - so why is it written out of history, and why is the memory of the Scots who fought to save France from English domination in the 15th century routinely insulted by people like the authors of this article by their omissions and misrepresentations?!


Maybe because you're not looking at the good page, if you have time, have a look on the different battles of this era, you will see that the Scots involvement in the war is not forgotten. But in a different point of view, you say that Scots fought to save France ??? Could you not say they fought english to weak them, as french did during the American Independence War in the 18th century ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.206.59.234 (talk) 00:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality[edit]

I'm wondering if the statement:

"Although his leadership was sometimes marked by indecisiveness, hardly any other leader left a nation so much better improved than when he came on the scene."

Is neutral? It doesn't strike me as neutral at all. LouisXI 04:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds pretty basic statement of fact to me (albeit poorly written): he began with his kingdom largely conquered and in crisis, he ended with a united nation, free of English domination, and almost entirely free of foreign encroachment. An improvement, no? Michael Sanders 14:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


Hmm, I do think it needs to be rewritten, so it seems a tad bit more neutral. It is a true statement, but, as stated, it's not written well at all.LouisXI 06:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Coinage[edit]

Charles VII "Franc à cheval", 1422-1423.

Here's a nice coin of Charles VII, feel free to insert it in the article. Cheers PHG (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Reign[edit]

Historian now recognize Charles VII's reign as begining in 1422. GoodDay (talk) 00:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

.Many Kings were accused of being bastards, including Edward IV. Luckily for the French Jeanne d'Arc defeated the English, otherwise Margaret of Anjou would have ended up becoming the de facto ruler of both England and France. High jinks in the Middle Ages with her running the show in both places!--jeanne (talk) 14:49, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

- How is that lucky? The rulership of France actually made little difference to the actual French people in the long run, especially as the English king was a Frencg lord in his own right and the Dauphin was initially unpopular (as most of his allies were peadophiles, nutcases/liars and murderers I am not surprised) the main problem was the war. The Mummy (talk) 02:12, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Henry IV the Usurper[edit]

In point of fact, the Yorkists later disputed Henry VI's right to the English throne as his grandfather Henry IV, after deposing the legitimate King Richard II, ascended the throne bypassing Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March , who as a descendant of Lionel, Duke of Clarence (second son of Edward III), certainly came before Henry IV, who was the son of John of Gaunt (the third son of Edward III). Edmund was actually the heir presumptive to the throne. The Lancastrians wanted to apply the Salic Law to exclude the Mortimers, who were descended from Lionel's daughter, Philippa, Countess of Ulster-in her lifetime the heiress presumptive to the throne, yet conveniently ignore it in order to claim the throne of France! Sorry, but that dog just won't bark!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Indeed, Henry VI was eventually given the boot, as 'King of England'. GoodDay (talk) 16:48, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Anyroad, it was Margaret of Anjou who was de facto ruler, seeing as Henry suffered from the same malady as his maternal grandfather.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:49, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The colors of France ?[edit]

  1. ***In his adolescent years, Charles was noted for his bravery and style of leadership: at one point after becoming Dauphin, he led an army against the English, dressed in the red, white and blue that represented France;*** In which text is it written that in the early 15th century *red white & blue* were the colors of France?
  2. ***Instead, he remained in southern France, where he was still able to exert some small amount of power, maintaining an itinerant court in the Loire Valley at castles such as Chinon, being customarily known as "Dauphin" still, or derisively as "King of Bourges" (Bourges being the region where he generally lived)...*** The Loire valley is not considered to be southern France.
  3. The map that was added does not show Bourges. Dommage!
  4. There should be a choice of English-English or American-English: both are being used.
  5. I added the accent on Orleans→Orléans, maybe this is not acceptable in this text. If so, I shall remove it.
Frania W. (talk) 14:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Frania, I prefer the accent on Orléans. It should stay. You are right, until the French Revolution, blue and white were the colours of France. Red, white and blue are the post-revoluion colours of France.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Coronation music[edit]

Is there any record of the music played and sung at the coronation in 1429? There may not have been much as there would have been little time to rehearse. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC).

Two daughters named Joan?[edit]

The article claims that he had two daughters named Joan (Jeanne), one who was born in 1435 and who died in 1482, and another one who was born in 1438 and who died in 1446. While that wouldn't be the only case of two royal siblings sharing the name (cf. James IV of Scotland and James Stewart, Duke of Ross), I am more inclined to believe that the second Joan did not exist. So, what about her? Or them? Surtsicna (talk) 19:26, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

What makes you believe that? Did you look at Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands? The second Jeanne de France (Amboise 7 Sep 1438-Tours, Indre-et-Loire 26 Dec 1446) was the twin of Marie de France.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 22:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy is correct. The two *Jeanne*, daughters of Charles VII, may have had other baptismal names after the first one to differentiate them, as the *Louis* below. Not only did Charles VII have two *Jeanne*, he also had two *Marie*. Having children with the same first baptismal name is/was not uncommon.
Sons of Louis de France:
  • Louis (Joseph)
  • Louis (Auguste)
  • Louis (Stanislas)
Sons of Louis XVI:
  • Louis (Xavier)
  • Louis (Charles)

I would like to point out that this text [3], which is in English, has kept all French names in French:

King Charles VII & his wife had fourteen children:

1. LOUIS de France (Bourges, Bishop's palace 3 Jul 1423-Château de Plessis-les-Tours, La Riche, Indre-et-Loire 30 Aug 1483, bur Notre-Dame de Cléry, Loiret). Dauphin de Viennois from birth. He succeeded in 1461 as LOUIS XI King of France.

2. JEAN de France (b and d Poitiers 19 Sep 1426).

3. RADEGONDE de France (Chinon, Indre-et-Loire 1425 before 29 Aug-Tours, Indre-et-Loire 19 Mar 1444, bur Tours, Cathédrale Saint-Gatien). Betrothed (contract Innsbruck 22 Jul 1430) to SIGISMUND of Austria, son of FRIEDRICH IV "mit den leeren Tasche" Graf von Tirol & his second wife Anna von Braunschweig-Lüneburg (Innsbruck 26 Oct 1427-Innsbruck 4 Mar 1496, bur Stams). He succeeded his father in 1439 as SIGISMUND "der Münzreiche" Graf von Tirol.

4. CATHERINE de France (-Brussels 13 Sep 1446, bur Brussels, Cathédrale Saint-Michel). She left the French court in May 1438 to live with the Duke of Burgundy at Saint-Omer. m (Betrothed 1438, St Omer 19 May 1440) CHARLES de Bourgogne Comte de Charolais, son of PHILIPPE III "le Bon" Duke of Burgundy & his third wife Infanta doña Isabel de Portugal (Dijon 11 Nov 1433-killed in battle Nancy 5 Jan 1477, bur 1512 Bruges église de Notre-Dame). He succeeded his father in 1467 as CHARLES "le Hardi/le Téméraire" Duke of Burgundy.

5. JACQUES de France (1432-Tours, Indre-et-Loire 2 Mar 1437, bur Tours, Cathédrale Saint-Gatien).

6. YOLANDE de France (Tours, Indre-et-Loire 23 Sep 1434-Chambéry 29 Aug 1478, bur Vercelli, San Eusebio). The marriage contract between "Amedeo di Savoia figlio del Duca Lodovico" and "Yolant di Francia figlia di Carlo VII Re di Francia" is dated 16 Aug 1436[751]. After her betrothal, she was sent to Thonon to be brought up by her future mother-in-law. Regent of Savoy 1472-1478 during the minority of her son Philibert. m (contract Tours 16 Aug 1436, Feurs en Forez, Loire 1452) AMEDEE de Savoie, son of LOUIS Duc de Savoie & his wife Anne Pss of Cyprus (Château de Thonon, Haute-Savoie 1 Feb 1435-Vercelli 30 Mar 1472, bur Vercelli, San Eusebio). He succeeded his father in 1465 as AMEDEE IX Duke of Savoy.

7. JEANNE de France (1435-Château de Moulins, Allier 4 May 1482, bur Moulins, église de Notre-Dame). m (contracts Château de Montils-lès-Tours 23 Dec 1446 and Tours 26 Dec 1446, dispensation 3 Nov 1452, in person end 1452) as his first wife, JEAN de Bourbon Comte de Clermont, son of CHARLES I Duc de Bourbon et d'Auvergne & his wife Agnès de Bourgogne [Valois] (Château de Moulins, Allier 30 Aug 1426[752]-Château de Moulins 1 Apr 1488, bur Priory of Souvigny). He succeeded his father in 1456 as JEAN II Duc de Bourbon et d'Auvergne.

8. PHILIPPE de France (Château de Chinon, Indre-et-Loire 4 Feb 1436-11 Jun 1436).

9. MARGUERITE de France (May 1437-Tours, Indre-et-Loire 24 Jul 1438).

10. JEANNE de France (Amboise 7 Sep 1438-Tours, Indre-et-Loire 26 Dec 1446). Twin with Marie.

11. MARIE de France (Amboise 7 Sep 1438- Tours, Indre-et-Loire 14 Feb 1439).

12. MARIE de France (1441-young).

13. MADELEINE de France (Tours, Indre-et-Loire 1 Dec 1443-Pamplona 24 Jan 1495, bur Pamplona Cathedral). Betrothed (Sep 1457) to LADISLAUS Duke of Austria, King of Bohemia, ULÁSZLÓ I King of Hungary, son of ALBRECHT V Duke of Austria, King of Bohemia and Hungary & his wife Elisabeth Pss of Bohemia & Hungary [Luxembourg] (posthumously Komarón, Hungary 22 Feb 1440-Prague 23 Nov 1457, bur Prague St Veit). m (contract Tours 1458, Saint-Jean-d'Angély, Charente-Maritime 11 Feb 1462, Saint-Macaire, Gironde 7 Mar 1462) GASTON de Foix Principe de Viana, son of GASTON IV de Grailly Comte de Foix et de Bigorre & his wife Infanta doña Leonor de Aragón y Navarra [later Leonor I Queen of Navarre] (1444-Libourne, Gironde 23 Nov 1470, bur Bordeaux, Cathédrale Saint-André). He died from injuries received during a tournament.

14. CHARLES de France (Château de Montils-lès-Tours 12 Dec 1446-Bordeaux 24 May 1472, bur Bordeaux, Cathédrale Saint-André). He bore the title Duc de Berry from birth, confirmed Nov 1461. His father Charles VII unsuccessfully proposed Charles to succeed Ladislaus of Austria as King of Bohemia and Hungary, sending an ambassador to Prague Feb 1458. Duc de Normandie, Comte de Mortain Oct 1465, enthroned as Duke at Notre-Dame de Rouen 1 Dec 1465, dispossessed by the King his brother Nov 1469. Duc de Guyenne Apr 1469. Mistress (1): COLETTE de Chambes, wife of LOUIS Sire d'Amboise Vicomte de Thouars Prince de Talmont, daughter of JEAN de Chambes Seigneur de Montsoreau [counsellor and first maître d'hôtel of the King, captain and governor of La Rochelle] & his wife Jeanne Chabot (-Saint-Sever 14 Dec 1471, bur Saint-Sever). She left her husband mid-1469 to live with Charles Duc de Guyenne. Duke Charles had two illegitimate daughters by Mistress (1):

a) JEANNE bâtarde de Guyenne (-after 1533). Dominican nun. Under-prioress at the convent of Saint-Pardoux la Rivière, Périgord.

b) ANNE bâtarde de Guyenne (-before 14 Nov 1491). m (contract 5 Oct 1470) as his first wife, FRANÇOIS de Volvire Seigneur de Ruffec en Angoûmois, son of JEAN de Volvire [counsellor and chamberlain of Charles Duc de Guyenne] & his wife Catherine de Comborn (-1541). Seigneur de Montcucq en Quercy 1471. Counsellor and Chamberlain of the King.

--Frania W. (talk) 01:36, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

There have been many instances where two full siblings have shared the same name. This was due to their being given the same baptismal name as all the daughters of Maria Theresa of Austria bore the first name of Maria (Marie), such as Marie Antoinette, or it often happened when an elder sibling was sickly and thought to die, and the parents wished to honour a relative by giving a new-born baby the same name as the older child. This occurred in the Holland family in the late 14th century when two sisters: Alianore Holland and Eleanor Holland bore the same name. They were obviously named for their maternal grandmother Eleanor of Lancaster.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:28, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
If the sister(s) had another baptismal name, it should be mentioned, shouldn't it? If they didn't (if there are no reliable sources saying that they did), what's the point of mentioning the second name? None of Maria Theresa's daughters was known simply as Maria and the Holland sisters had two slightly different types of their grandmother's name. Surtsicna (talk) 18:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Maybe there were names following "Jeanne" and we have not seen them; but if they were only "Jeanne", then that's what they were. --Frania W. (talk) 18:59, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Antonia Fraser explains on page 443 in The Wives of Henry VIII that in the Middle Ages if an elder sibling had already died or was thought to die soon, a new-born sibling of the same sex was often given his or her name. This is clearly the case here.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:07, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Maybe the first Joan was about to die so her parents named her sister after her, but afterwards she survived.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 09:24, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes possibly. Ironically it was the younger Jeanne who died young, while the elder survived into adulthood.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
What Mme Fraser explains is clearly the case for the two "Marie": after the death of the first one in 1439, the next girl born in 1441 was named "Marie".
--Frania W. (talk) 11:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, it would have been considered a mark of respect to the Virgin Mary, to have a daughter named Marie; therefore, if a Marie died, it would follow that a newborn daughter would be given her name.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:00, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

This is the exact situation as the daughters of John I of Aragon, also Joan or Joanna.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 01:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Unification[edit]

It's kind of ridiculous to claim that "under Charles VII France was for the first time since the Carolingian dynasty united under one ruler" when Burgundy still existed. I think it's more important that he kicked the English out, thereby regaining the north and Aquitaine. Brutannica (talk) 20:39, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Joan of Arc/Jeanne d'Arc.[edit]

The article should be consistent in the use of name. Since Joan of Arc is the name of the article in this wikipedia, Joan of Arc should be used, right?Naraht (talk) 13:18, 27 April 2012 (UTC)