Talk:Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler incident

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Article rating failure[edit]

This article is a fine example of the weaknesses of article rating. As of today, it was the 4th-highest-rated article with 10+ ratings in the past day, despite being a slightly POV stub that follows few of our style guidelines, with few details or sources. Particularly interesting is that it gets a completeness rating of over 3 stars... possibly people who really like [or dislike] article themes are rating them 5- [or 1-] stars across the board?

This is a heartwarming story, and could be part of a great article with more information and better sourcing, but its rating suggests it is of comparable quality to, for example, Call of Duty: Black Ops. In contrast, something like the wikiproject system would rate this article stub-class and the Black Ops article at least B-class (a rating it has had since November). – SJ + 06:41, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Attempted to update the article's tone and style inline with MoS.Londonclanger (talk) 11:43, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Medical Attention[edit]

"Stigler tried to get Brown to land his plane at a German base and surrender, but Brown refused because his wounded comrades were in urgent need of medical assistance."

I know this is what the source (an obit) reports, but if he had landed in Germany, based on historical treatment of downed fliers, I believe all his crew would have been given quick medical treatment. Since the source says otherwise, I guess the text stays? What's the policy here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.228.235 (talk) 23:26, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It was situational at best. Depending on how close to the attacked point the airbase was, would mean that a pilot downed in that area (or forced to land) might end up killed by the Gestapo, or thrown into a concentration camp. It didn't always happen, but pilots and crews had heard horror stories being filtered back from some pilots who had managed to escape capture.

This Article Needs HUGE Cleanup[edit]

It's written like someone trying to write a movie script with way too much romantic prose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.134.73.168 (talk) 11:53, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

spelling error[edit]

Twice, Stigler tried to get Brown to land his plane at a German airfield and surrender, or divert to nearby neutral Sweden, where he and his crew would receive medical treatment but be interred and sit out the remainder of the war. Brown refused and flew on. Stigler then flew near Brown's plane, escorting it until they reached the North Sea and departing with a salute.[4]

should be "interned"— Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.104.71 (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 June 2013‎

 Done - This was already fixed when I took a look today. --Marc Kupper|talk 00:49, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fictional depiction of Brown-Stigler Incident[edit]

The story was dramatized on NCIS in the 11th season under the title Better Angels, portrayed as happening to Jackson Gibbs, lead character Jethro Gibbs' father. It was the last appearance of Ralph Waite on the show after a run of 5 years playing Gibbs' father. CorlyssD (talk) 22:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC) Corlyssd 6/25/14[reply]

Renewed efforts to improve article[edit]

I'm trying to include more detail here, and generally improve the writing quality and coverage of this article. GA is probably a bit much to hope for, but it's always worth a shot. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 01:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio[edit]

Sorry, most of the article was a single copyvio from a writer's forum. Someone has to rewrite it.-194.25.30.13 (talk) 15:53, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Archive[edit]

Just for the refs. Not sure if this is a copyvio problem, delete if it might be.-194.25.30.13 (talk) 16:01, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

==Pilots== 2nd Lt. Charlie Brown ("a farm boy from [[Weston, West Virginia]]", in his own words) was a B-17F pilot with [[United States Army Air Forces]] (USAAF)'s [[379th Expeditionary Operations Group|379th Bomber Group]] stationed at [[RAF Kimbolton]] in England.<ref name=CTV>{{Cite news|title=WW2 German fighter pilot saved U.S. bomber crew|url=http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20080511/franz_stigler_080511/ |date=|publisher = [[CTV News]] |pages=|accessdate=4 April 2011|author =Brent Gilbert }}</ref> Franz Stigler (a former airline pilot from [[Bavaria]]) was a veteran ''Luftwaffe'' fighter pilot attached to [[Jagdgeschwader 27]]; at the time, he had 22 victories to his name and would be eligible for the coveted [[Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross#Prerequisites|Knight's Cross]] with one more downed enemy bomber.<ref name="Honour in the skies"/>{{sfn|Makos|Alexander|2012|p=192}} ===Bomb run=== Brown's B-17 began its 10-minute bomb run at {{convert|27300|ft|m|abbr=on}} with an outside air temperature of {{convert|-60|C|F|abbr=on}}. Before the bomber released its bomb load, accurate [[Anti-aircraft warfare|flak]] shattered the Plexiglas nose, knocked out the number two engine and further damaged the number four engine, which was already in questionable condition and had to be throttled back to prevent overspeeding. The damage slowed the bomber, and Brown was unable to remain with his formation and fell back as a straggler – a position from which he came under sustained enemy attacks.<ref name="Chivalry in the Air">[http://chivalrytoday.com/chivalry-air/ Chivalry in the Air]</ref> ===Attacks by fighters=== Brown's straggling B-17 was now attacked by over a dozen enemy fighters (a mixture of [[Messerschmitt Bf 109]]s and [[Focke-Wulf Fw 190]]s) of [[Jagdgeschwader 11|JG-11]] for over 10 minutes.{{sfn|Makos|Alexander|2012|p=181}} Further damage was sustained, including damage to the number three engine, which would produce only half power (meaning the aircraft had at best 40% of its total rated power available). The bomber's internal oxygen, hydraulic and electrical systems were also damaged, and the bomber lost half of its rudder and its port (left side) elevator, as well as its nose cone. The gunners' weapons then jammed, probably as a result of improper pre-mission oiling, leaving the bomber with only two dorsal turret guns and one of three forward-firing nose guns (from eleven available) for defense.{{sfn|Makos|Alexander|2012|p=184-185}} Most of the crew were wounded: the [[tail gunner]], Eckenrode, had been killed by a direct hit from a fighter shell, while Yelesanko was critically wounded in the leg by shrapnel, Pechout had been hit in the eye by a shell fragment, and Brown was wounded in his right shoulder.{{sfn|Makos|Alexander|2012|p=186-189}} The [[morphine]] syrettes onboard froze, complicating first-aid efforts by the crew, while the radio was destroyed and the bomber's exterior was heavily damaged.{{sfn|Makos|Alexander|2012|p=186-189}} ===Franz Stigler=== Brown's damaged bomber was spotted by Germans on the ground, including Franz Stigler, who was refueling and rearming at an airfield. He soon took off in his Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 (which had a .50 Browning Machine Gun bullet embedded in the radiator which risked the engine overheating) and quickly caught up with Brown's plane. Through the damaged bomber's airframe Stigler was able to see the injured and incapacitated crew. To the American pilot's surprise, Stigler did not open fire on the crippled bomber. Stigler recalled the words of one of his commanding officers from [[Jagdgeschwader 27]], [[Gustav Rödel]], during his time fighting in North Africa, “You are fighter pilots first, last, always. If I ever hear of any of you [[Attacks on parachutists|shooting at someone in a parachute]], I'll shoot you myself." Stigler later commented, "To me, it was just like they were in a parachute. I saw them and I couldn't shoot them down." Twice, Stigler tried to get Brown to land his plane at a German airfield and surrender, or divert to nearby neutral Sweden, where he and his crew would receive medical treatment and be interned the remainder of the war. Brown and the crew of the B-17 didn't understand what Stigler was trying to mouth and gesture to them and so flew on. Stigler later told Brown he was trying to get them to fly to Sweden. Stigler then flew near Brown's plane in a formation on the bomber's port side wing, so German antiaircraft units would not target it; he then escorted the damaged B-17 over the coast until they reached open water. Brown, unsure of Stigler's intentions at the time, ordered his dorsal turret gunner to point at Stigler but not open fire in order to warn him off. Understanding the message and certain that the bomber was out of German airspace, Stigler departed with a salute.<ref name="Chivalry in the Air"/> ===Landing=== Brown managed to fly the {{convert|250|mi|km|abbr=on}} across the North Sea and land his plane at [[RAF Seething]], home of the [[448th Fighter-Bomber Group|448th Bomb Group]] and at the after-flight debriefing informed his officers about how a German pilot had let him go. He was told not to repeat this to the rest of the unit so as not to build any positive sentiment about enemy pilots. Brown commented, "Someone decided you can't be human and be flying in a German cockpit." Stigler said nothing of the incident to his commanding officers, knowing that a German pilot who spared the enemy while in combat risked execution. Brown went on to complete a combat tour.<ref name="cnn.com"/> ==Post war and meeting of pilots== After the war, Brown returned home to West Virginia and went to college, returning to the Air Force in 1949 and serving until 1965. Later, as a State Department Foreign Service Officer, he made numerous trips to Laos and Vietnam. But in 1972, he retired from government service and moved to Miami to become an inventor. Stigler moved to Canada in 1953 and became a successful businessman. In 1986, the then-retired Colonel Brown was asked to speak at a combat pilot reunion event called "Gathering of the Eagles". Someone asked him if he had any memorable missions during World War II; Brown thought for a minute and recalled the story of Stigler's escort and salute. Afterwards, Brown decided he should try to find the unknown German pilot. After four years of searching vainly for U.S. and West German Air Force records that might shed some light on who the other pilot was, Brown hadn't come up with much. He then wrote a letter to a combat pilot association newsletter. A few months later, Brown received a letter from Stigler, who was living in Canada. "I was the one", it said. When they spoke on the phone, Stigler described his plane, the escort and salute confirming everything Brown needed to hear to know he was the German fighter pilot involved in the incident. Between 1990 and 2008, Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler became close friends and remained so until their deaths within several months of each other in 2008.<ref name=CTV/><ref name=tmh>{{cite news|title=Charles L. Brown Obituary|url=http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/herald/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=121043278|accessdate=13 May 2011|newspaper=The Miami Herald|date=7 December 2008}}</ref>

  • They copied Wikipedia...

http://thecreativeforums.myfastforum.org/archive/charlie-brown-and-franz-stigler-incident-wwii__o_t__t_3909.html which references http://thecreativeforums.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=3909&start=0 was posted on Sunday September 22, 2013. The copy was on Wikipedia already. See revision as of 02:14, August 19, 2013.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=408920752 - no date on posting but I'd warrant they copied a section of the article.

Best do a little research before wiping copy in future. Londonclanger (talk) 10:13, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Swearing is my very appropriate reaction to your edit comments.-194.25.30.13 (talk) 12:30, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I said, do some research before making an edits. It'll save editors having to waste time rectifying your mistakes. Londonclanger (talk) 12:42, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, use edit comments. It'll save editors from wasting time to figure out why you did something. This whole exchange would have been unnessecary.-194.25.30.13 (talk) 11:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Air Force Cross[edit]

The US Air Force Cross was instituted in 1960. There have been at least two belated WW2 awards of the Air Force Cross but I do not find Charles Brown listed. I do not have a copy of the reference cited to check the claim. Anthony Staunton (talk) 13:52, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This should NOT be the main Franz Stigler Page[edit]

Franz Stigler was an amazing man with tons of stories, so many that AN ENTIRE BOOK was written about him. All of his life should NOT be condensed into a single bio about one incident involving him. I suggest that a page be made about him, talking about the different conflicts and events he partook in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.105.217.158 (talk) 03:24, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If he's notable go ahead.★Trekker (talk) 04:23, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox soldier[edit]

I removed both since this is not a bio article. Preserving here by providing this link. Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:36, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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