Talk:Chełmno extermination camp

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Military history (Rated Start-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality assessment scale.
WikiProject Correction and Detention Facilities (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Correction and Detention Facilities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of prisons on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Germany (Rated Start-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Poland (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Article structure[edit]

When an article like this is expanded by dozens of volunteers who don't have time to read what has already been written, what happens is that at least 30% of the material gets repeated almost word for word between sources and paragraphs. Further reading becomes increasingly harder until we reach a virtual stop point, where nothing new is being said anymore. I suggest removing section Testimonies altogether, and incorporating only a few selected paragraphs in the actual chronological description of the camp operation. Any objections to that? Poeticbent talk 00:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

How many times can you say the same thing?
  1. At "the palace" they were stripped of possessions, transferred to vans, and gassed to death with the exhaust fumes on the way to the burial pits (section "Deportations begin")
  2. When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the gas-van ... When the lorries were full of people, the double doors at the back were closed
  3. the victims were taken to the cellar and across the ramp into the back of a gas van holding from 50-70 people each ... When the van was full, the doors were shut and the engine started (section "Killing process")

And so on, Poeticbent talk 03:15, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Why the Polish name?[edit]

This was a German operation, why not use the German name? Anmccaff (talk) 05:56, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Yes, the extermination camp was Nazi German (ain't no doubt about it), but Chełmno is a living city with 20,000 inhabitants. The operation was not called Chełmno, the town of Chełmno was known in the German language as Kulmhof in those days, Poeticbent talk 15:19, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm aware of the history. Kulmhof/Chełmno was a place with a German name used before and during the period, and was in an area which had been incorporated into the Reich. The parallel with Auschwitz is pretty strong, at least in terms of name. On the other hand, the post-war trials may have fixed Chełmno's name to it. Anmccaff (talk) 15:45, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
PS, just to be explicit, I think the name of the article should reflect the German name. Anmccaff (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
I hear you. Auschwitz was a German endonym whereas Birkenau complex was built from scratch like a city within the city. – This was not Oświęcim town, but rather an operation, like you say. – Please take a look at a long discussion which resulted in setting up a more generalized approach to naming the camps with the use of Polish diacritics; at Talk:Sobibór extermination camp#Requested move. Get back to me on that. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 14:52, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Also, we need to stick to WP:COMMONNAME guidelines. Here are the Google search results with Kulmhof as the distant last possible option in terms of overall numbers.
  1. "Chelmno extermination camp" 12,400 results (0.42 seconds)
  2. "Chełmno extermination camp" 4,320 results (0.33 seconds)
  3. "Kulmhof extermination camp" 79 results (0.39 seconds) [1]
Poeticbent talk 16:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, I'm sure you noticed that, even among the books, a depressing amount of those references were circular back to wiki itself. Speaking of depressing, that naming discussion linked to above looks like a parody of What is Wrong with Wikipedia. This is supposed to represent the consensus of good scholarly or expert information; a Google-dredge often gives anything but that. Not meant against you, or most of the other participants, but I once made several hundred Google hits disappear just by correcting a poor OCR-derived WikiQuote, and I just recently saw some loon in Germany create 400 just by misnaming a Wiki page. Numbers on a google search mean very little in a scholarly context, even for "common names. Anmccaff (talk) 17:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I was just trying to help you make a convincing argument, but we're not there yet. Kulmhof was no Birkenau in terms of its minimal infrastructure. Only the gas vans were driving through town back and forth between the prewar manor house and the nearby forest. The town was called Kulm in the German language; but it was known as Chełmno long before the Thirteen Years' War. Today, even the German writers themselves refer to the camp using its current wikt:toponym, i.e.: Das ehemalige Vernichtungslager Chełmno [2] Good enough for me, Poeticbent talk 18:33, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, German bloggers might; despite the name, that's an (admitted) one-woman show, which bears a great deal of resemblance to several other sites, right down to the choice of photos, IMS. Most towns in Mitteleurope have at least two names, some merely phonetic variants, but some with radically different etymologies, and sometimes with different connotations. The names sometimes have run in parallel for centuries, and I believe Kulmh(of)/Chełmno was one of these. Anmccaff (talk) 20:23, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I realize, it is completely wrong to say it the way that German blogger did in the German language. It was the Vernichtungslager Kulmhof in Chełmno, not the Vernichtungslager Chełmno... In English we would say the Extermination Camp in Chełmno or the Kulmhof Extermination Camp in the town of Chełmno. Once you put Chełmno in front however, it looks different and is more-less acceptable. Poeticbent talk 13:46, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Chełmno extermination camp. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:00, 21 November 2016 (UTC)