Talk:Chiang Kai-shek

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Authoritarianism[edit]

As others have pointed out, the statement that Chiang "rejected" Sun's philosophy in favor of authoritarianism is rather debatable. Sun argued that a period of tutelage under Kuomintang domination was necessary before democracy, after the Beyiang Goverment failed. China was never stable nor fully unified under Chiang's rule, and many of Chiang's quotes suggested he considered himself quite pro-democracy. Point is, unless there is something I'm missing, it's not really clear whether Chiang was following Sun's plan or not. And thus it seems inaccurate to say he "rejected" Sun's views.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.184.252.74 (talk) 18:35, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Phonetic pronunciation of CKS[edit]

Could someone who knows (not me, I'm afraid) put up a phonetic guide to the pronunciation of CKS's name? I ask because in Barbara Tuchman's biography of Joe Stilwell she criticises a US official for pronouncing his name to rhyme with "bang". I'd always assumed that was right too.Thomas Peardew (talk) 07:40, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

All Chinese -ang sounds use an ah vowel, not a long ey. The first syllable of Shanghai doesn't rhyme with "bang" either. — LlywelynII 12:05, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

It is not necessary to try to pronounce foreign names as their natives do. Chiang Kai-shek is known in English as Chiang (to rhyme with Bang), Kai (to rhyme with Sky) and Shek (to rhyme with Check). Efforts at 'correct' Chinese pronunciation (which 'Chinese'?) are fruitless. Changing foreign names from well-established English transliterations are confusing. I am reading a book where he is referred to as Jiang Jieshi. My own name is French, but we pronounce it is a thoroughly English way; which is 'correct' for us. The French say it differently, which is correct for them.Ballenstedter (talk) 16:26, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Chiang Kai-Shek is a Cantonese version of his name, which would be pronounced [jöng gai sek], where "ö" is as in German "ö" or French "eu," "gai" is as the English word "guy," and "sek" rhymes with "heck." English speakers had a hard time figuring out how to romanize this Cantonese vowel, and it shows up a number of different ways. China now attempts to force all proper names (and everything else) into Mandarin, leaving people with things like "Jiang Jeshi" which no one but Mainland Chinese folks would recognize as the historical figure Chiang Kai-Shek. One problem is that Mainland scholars are under pressure to pretend dialects other than Mandarin never existed, lol, so it's hard to get accurate information from the very people who would be most knowledgeable. At this point, they may have inherited the problem, though, i.e. are not actively covering up the true pronunciation themselves, but rather their own professors had already "revised history" by the time modern scholars studied it, effectively destroying much detailed knowledge of life in China (and Tibet and Turkestan) as it truly was in, say, 1949.

Dia Li[edit]

What was said about Dia Li whose name was actually Tai Li is not entirely correct. He did not trust or like the British who arrested him when Tai Li went to Vietnam before WW-II and Chiang had to arrange for his release. Tai was the Director of a US Navy Unit called SACO. SACO was the only military unit that I know of who was under the direct control of a foreign government, China. ADM Miles was the Deputy Director of SACO. Tai Li ordered the British intelligence unit out of China after WW-II started. After the war started, ADM King gave then Commander Miles secret orders to go to China and work with Tai Li to set up weather stations and help the Chinese and locate coast watchers to look for Japanese ships. SACO’ duties were expanded later. Tai Li was also in charge of China’s BIA, Bureau of Investigation and Statistics, which is like our FBI. It is true Tai Li did not trust many people but he developed a very close relationship with the SACO personal and ADM Miles and trusted them completely. It is also true he did not like and Chiang did like GEN Stillwell, GEN Wedemyer or GEN Donovan due to things which were said and done. It is also true a US General made a mistake at a banquet given for him by Tai Li. He got drunk and said some things which criticized China and Chaing’s wife. It became a major issue between the US and China and things had to be smoothed out. Unknown to Chiang, General Donovan, who was director of the OSS, sent men to north China and met with the Communist Chinese. When Chiang found out through information provided by Tai Li, he became very angry with General Wedemyer since he was the theater commander and another situation developed and trust between the US and China became strained again. GEN Stillwell, Gen Wedemyer and GEN Donovan wanted SACO out of China and did everything they could to do so. This also did not help in the relationship between Chiang, Tai Li and the US government and military. See www.saconavy.com and ADM Miles book “A Different Kind of War” and other books written about SACO by SACO veterans about the relationship between the US military and Chiang/Tai Li and the US government. Jack Coyle SACO Historian jackwcoyle@bellsouth.net — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.166.105.139 (talk) 15:40, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Atrocities comitted by Chiang Kai Shek's Governement[edit]

There is a remarkable lack of mention of the number of people massacred at the hands of his government. There is lots of useful sourced info in this page: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE2.HTM

Some of this info could be added to the KMT page and the History of China page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.218.11 (talk) 19:10, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Chiang kai-shek's criticism of soviet, western, and japanese imperialism[edit]

Page 211

http://books.google.com/books?id=wzf5AAAAIAAJ&q=Kaiser+imperialism+internationalism+mencius&dq=Kaiser+imperialism+internationalism+mencius&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Qu6lUMqhD8-C0QGtr4DwDg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ

'What they call "Internationalism" and "World Revolution" are nothing but Kaiser Imperialism. They have only given it a new name and made it puzzling to distinguish one from the other. Russians, as well as the English, French, Americans and Japanese, it seems to me, all have it in their minds to promote the interest of their own respective countries at the cost of other nations. One of them ridiculing the others about this is, as Mencius said, just like a man who had run only fifty paces ridiculing those who had run a hundred paces for having run at all.

Title The life of Chiang Kai-shek Author Shih-i Hsiung Publisher Peter Davies, 1948 Length 398 pages

Page 84

http://books.google.com/books?id=HFWlaMnvu6MC&q=Kaiser+imperialism+internationalism+mencius&dq=Kaiser+imperialism+internationalism+mencius&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Qu6lUMqhD8-C0QGtr4DwDg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA

"What they call 'Internationalism' and 'World Revolution' are nothing but Kaiser Imperialism. . . . Russians, as well as the English, French, Americans and Japanese, it seems to me, all have it in their minds to promote the interest of their own respective countries at the cost of other nations. One of them ridiculing the others about this is, as Mencius said, just like a man who had run only fifty paces ridiculing those who had run a hundred paces for having run at all.


Title Chiang Kai-shek: an unauthorized biography Author Emily Hahn Publisher Doubleday, 1955 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Jan 6, 2006 Length 382 pages


page 303

https://books.google.com/books?id=Fs9l3DwJFD0C&q=What+they+call+%22Internationalism%22+and+%22World+Revolution%22+are+nothing+but+Kaiser+Imperialism.+They+have+only+given+it+a+new+name+and+made+it+puzzling+to+distinguish+one+from+the+other.+Russians,+as+well+as+the+English,+French,+Americans+and+Japanese&dq=What+they+call+%22Internationalism%22+and+%22World+Revolution%22+are+nothing+but+Kaiser+Imperialism.+They+have+only+given+it+a+new+name+and+made+it+puzzling+to+distinguish+one+from+the+other.+Russians,+as+well+as+the+English,+French,+Americans+and+Japanese&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiW5cLw_4rLAhUMej4KHUtXDuoQ6AEIHTAA

Title The Awakening of China 1793 - 1949 Author Roger Pelissier Published 1967

Jonathan Marshall - Opium and the Politics of Gangsterism in Nationalist China, 1927-1945[edit]

Page 19

http://criticalasianstudies.org/assets/files/bcas/v08n03.pdf

Rajmaan (talk) 02:02, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Anti-capitalism and cultural policy of Chiang Kai-shek[edit]

http://books.google.com/books?id=uZbr9iD1HZ8C&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=anti+capitalist+chiang&source=bl&ots=1hXukNa4Ey&sig=1dArJFq0rHOKyCutlvV3c9XuYkg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=o82wUtyoI-nsyQGH44HADQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=anti%20capitalist%20chiang&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=DUg2KGMQWHQC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=anti+capitalist+chiang&source=bl&ots=R_FXIWVO17&sig=CgCsJ4wYRotLiuqGxa3VxcFvi38&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F86wUqjLE6TgyQGv74DgDg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=anti%20capitalist%20chiang&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=UE7WmwExNWUC&pg=PA181&lpg=PA181&dq=anti+capitalist+chiang&source=bl&ots=UFAujH8Nyj&sig=sgeRnxh82qHSJWHTDMn_r4U15xo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F86wUqjLE6TgyQGv74DgDg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=anti%20capitalist%20chiang&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=9nJF_19fnZ4C&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=anti+capitalist+chiang&source=bl&ots=wt7YVlgln8&sig=qCyDWymZht4pktCqjaJespi2oUU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F86wUqjLE6TgyQGv74DgDg&ved=0CCgQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=anti%20capitalist%20chiang&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=GUpXdt3-Jv8C&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=anti+capitalist+chiang&source=bl&ots=xOqsuLiNOZ&sig=V1ULneEn9OHh2Y3ra12vul9WEBk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F86wUqjLE6TgyQGv74DgDg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=anti%20capitalist%20chiang&f=false

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2005/10/the_real_chiang.html

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/sgabriel/economics/china-essays/1.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=uZbr9iD1HZ8C&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=chiang+anti+capitalist&source=bl&ots=1iQqkU41yG&sig=zmHz_PuvqzXnzx0NLR7gSPt8mJ0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=woA-VOTFJOfCsASXpYKYCg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=chiang%20anti%20capitalist&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=9nJF_19fnZ4C&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=chiang+anti+capitalist&source=bl&ots=wu0UVsagqa&sig=6STMut8tRyRMxA9Ask4vbraTho4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=woA-VOTFJOfCsASXpYKYCg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=chiang%20anti%20capitalist&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=GUpXdt3-Jv8C&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=chiang+anti+capitalist&source=bl&ots=xPjouScIR-&sig=M8jFIGoUot_c87aHyps2UisiYWI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=woA-VOTFJOfCsASXpYKYCg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=chiang%20anti%20capitalist&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=UE7WmwExNWUC&pg=PA181&lpg=PA181&dq=chiang+anti+capitalist&source=bl&ots=UGtqjO6GHl&sig=kDDppS5E0ARkcW_6si9BhmDkGag&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1o8-VPOnL-znsASvioKACQ&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=chiang%20anti%20capitalist&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=lzisAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=chiang+anti+capitalist&source=bl&ots=jzU-1XbFd6&sig=MZ5GDPk8bPdnHpeJnhQhGH-cZ7A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1o8-VPOnL-znsASvioKACQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=chiang%20anti%20capitalist&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=eGbZgYbDVugC&pg=PA250&lpg=PA250&dq=chiang+anti+capitalist&source=bl&ots=K6FUBCM0RS&sig=fLi3W859KVcfUQj06kA6BHvE98g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1o8-VPOnL-znsASvioKACQ&ved=0CC4Q6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=chiang%20anti%20capitalist&f=false

The German advisor Max Bauer advised Chiang on anti capitalism and of the importance of cultural preservation over material development, Bauer believed that western civilization had been going downhill aftter 1789.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lzisAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=anti+capitalist+chiang&source=bl&ots=jy-31QdM44&sig=2q4EUyxsrnvckNXnLTtSOqslFnI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F86wUqjLE6TgyQGv74DgDg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=anti%20capitalist%20chiang&f=false

Vietnam policy[edit]

http://www.vietquoc.com/0007vq.htm

http://www.vietquoc.com/0006ART.HTM

The blog itself is not a source, but it lists good sources.

http://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/chiang-kai-shek-and-vietnam-in-1945/

https://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/ho-chi-minh-said-what/

Actually the blog can be used as a valid source since it's a notable historian who runs the blog, Professor Liam Kelley of the University of Hawaii at Manoa.

http://manoa.hawaii.edu/history/node/44

http://manoa-hawaii.academia.edu/LeMinhKhai

https://twitter.com/LeMinhKhai

https://vi-vn.facebook.com/leminh.khai.3

http://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/

https://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/category/burma/

http://leminhkhaiviet.wordpress.com/

Other works by the author

http://www.academia.edu/3561498/_Narrating_an_Unequal_Relationship_How_Premodern_Viet_Literati_Explained_their_Kingdoms_Relationship_with_the_North_

http://www.academia.edu/3554290/Vietnam_as_a_Domain_of_Manifest_Civility_Van_Hiến_Chi_Bang_

http://www.academia.edu/5378567/PowerPoint_slides_for_Imagining_the_Nation_in_Twentieth_Century_Vietnam_

https://www.lib.washington.edu/SouthEastAsia/vsg/elist_2010/Question%20about%20Binh%20Ngo%20Dai%20Cao.html

http://www.academia.edu/3561583/PowerPoint_slides_for_Localization_and_Knowledge_Worlds_in_the_Southeast_Asian_Past_and_Present_

Miscellaneous

http://nguvan.hnue.edu.vn/Nghiencuu/VanhocVietNamtrungdai/tabid/102/newstab/209/Default.aspx

Ryukyu (Okinawa) policy[edit]

In 1943, during World War II, the US President asked its ally, the The Republic of China, if it would lay claim to the Ryukyus after the war.“The President then referred to the question of the Ryukyu Islands and enquired more than once whether China would want the Ryukyus. The Generalissimo replied that China would be agreeable to joint occupation of the Ryukyus by China and the United State and, eventually, joint administration by the two countries under the trusteeship of an international organization.”

Page 324

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZNxIAQAAIAAJ&q=The+President+then+referred+to+the+question+of+the+Ryukyu+Islands+and+enquired+more+than+once+whether+China+would+want+the+Ryukyus.+The+Generalissimo+replied+that+China+would+be+agreeable+to+joint+occupation+of+the+Ryukyus+by+China+and+the+United+State&dq=The+President+then+referred+to+the+question+of+the+Ryukyu+Islands+and+enquired+more+than+once+whether+China+would+want+the+Ryukyus.+The+Generalissimo+replied+that+China+would+be+agreeable+to+joint+occupation+of+the+Ryukyus+by+China+and+the+United+State&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eqIJU8XWJ6WEygGt0YHADg&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?ei=eqIJU8XWJ6WEygGt0YHADg&id=ZNxIAQAAIAAJ&dq=The+President+then+referred+to+the+question+of+the+Ryukyu+Islands+and+enquired+more+than+once+whether+China+would+want+the+Ryukyus.+The+Generalissimo+replied+that+China+would+be+agreeable+to+joint+occupation+of+the+Ryukyus+by+China+and+the+United+State&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=enquired+want

Page 324

http://books.google.com/books?id=is4WAAAAYAAJ&q=The+President+then+referred+to+the+question+of+the+Ryukyu+Islands+and+enquired+more+than+once+whether+China+would+want+the+Ryukyus.+The+Generalissimo+replied+that+China+would+be+agreeable+to+joint+occupation+of+the+Ryukyus+by+China+and+the+United+State&dq=The+President+then+referred+to+the+question+of+the+Ryukyu+Islands+and+enquired+more+than+once+whether+China+would+want+the+Ryukyus.+The+Generalissimo+replied+that+China+would+be+agreeable+to+joint+occupation+of+the+Ryukyus+by+China+and+the+United+State&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eqIJU8XWJ6WEygGt0YHADg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?ei=eqIJU8XWJ6WEygGt0YHADg&id=is4WAAAAYAAJ&dq=The+President+then+referred+to+the+question+of+the+Ryukyu+Islands+and+enquired+more+than+once+whether+China+would+want+the+Ryukyus.+The+Generalissimo+replied+that+China+would+be+agreeable+to+joint+occupation+of+the+Ryukyus+by+China+and+the+United+State&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=question+Ryukyu+enquired+want

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news-36903.html

http://cpri.tripod.com/cpr1999/ryukyu.html

Names[edit]

The Chinese characters are available in the Name section and the infobox: they don't go in the lede; the Wade transliterations—other than Chiang Kai-shek—are available in the Name section and the infobox: they don't go in the lead. For the most part, we use pinyin for all the romanizations here, while noting the others. See WP:LEDE and WP:MOS-ZH. It's not a POV issue either: Taiwan finally adopted pinyin as their romanization system a few years back. — LlywelynII 12:25, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

ok to quote Chiang about his own childhood[edit]

When can sources material be omitted by the WP:UNDUE rule? Here's the rule: Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority; to do so would give undue weight to it. the "tiny minority" means fringe writers who have written about Chiang. Chiang is a RS on himself and Wiki often tells us how people saw themselves. There is no "tiny minority" here and no violation of the rule. Rjensen (talk) 04:59, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

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Colorized image[edit]

The colorized image of Chiang in the infobox, File:蔣中正肖像(上色).jpg, seems poorly colorized and out of place. Should the greyscale version be used in lieu of the current version, for aesthetic and possibly historical purposes? Yeenosaurus (talk) 🍁 03:41, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Looks like this was done, archive or delete this section. --198.98.255.237 (talk) 01:17, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Native name (Hanzi)[edit]

Somebody changed the native name from "蒋介石" to "蔣中正", from the usual name for Chiang Kai-shek to the "adopted name", and with an edit summary of "use name that he used in the ROC". I checked the article history and can see that for a long name the infobox had both names. But in May 2017 it was changed to displaying only "蔣中正", with an edit summary of "The official name" (which that isn't). I'm going to change it back to what was present for a long time, both names. For reference that will be:

|native_name = {{nobold|蔣中正}}<br />{{nobold|蔣介石}}

Is there a problem having both names? Shenme (talk) 04:32, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

No, 介石 by itself, however, is less acceptable. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 05:37, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:53, 10 November 2018 (UTC)