Talk:China

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Why is this article about the People's Republic of China?
Because of the overwhelming usage of "China" to refer to the People's Republic of China in both Chinese and English languages; we use the common name to title our articles.
Former featured article China is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Good article China has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 7, 2004.
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject China (Rated GA-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of China related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Countries (Rated GA-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Countries, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of countries on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject Asia (Rated GA-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Asia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject East Asia (Rated GA-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject East Asia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of East Asia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Socialism (Rated GA-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 GA  This article has been rated as GA-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
Wikipedia Version 1.0 Editorial Team / v0.5 / Vital / Supplemental
WikiProject icon This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Taskforce icon
This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.

The Russian ruble is accepted as valid tender in Suifenhe, China[edit]

Chinese government allows to use both the Russian ruble and the yuan, in Suifenhe, China as a legal tender. It is the first time in the history of PRC when the usage of a foreign currency as a payment for goods and services is allowed on its territory. I suggest to add the Russian ruble to the list of currencies along with the yuan in the same fashion as it's done for Panama and US dollar, but with a footnote that its usage is only allowed in a certain region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.141.26 (talkcontribs) 11:24, November 26, 2014

both nominal total GDP and purchasing power parity[edit]

China is number one by both nominal total GDP and purchasing power parity not number two. Please edit ????. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swax2 (talkcontribs) 16:44, December 19, 2014

Socialist state[edit]

So I'm going to bring this up again. China IS NOT a socialist state, nor a communist one, but a state capitalist one. This is universally agreed by all capitalists and anti-catpailists. China revolves around Maoism, which is a derivative of Marxism-Leninism, which is universally accepted to be state capitalism. It seems previously this was agreed within the achieves, but the article no longer goes along with the talk page consensus. DocHeuh (talk) 02:28, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

That doesn't make it true, that just means they want to be initially perceived as a socialist state. DocHeuh (talk) 15:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
@Heuho: Officially China has a socialist political system, but a system of diverse forms of ownership (or put it more bluntly, non-socialist forms of ownership). The CPC's policy is that the state sector (read; socialist sector) should dominate and guide the rest of the economy. This they refer to as the primary stage of socialism.... And another note, "China revolves around Maoism, which is a derivative of Marxism-Leninism, which is universally accepted to be state capitalism", this is highly biased. From a Trotskyist (and other currents too) perspective Marxism–Leninism is state capitalism, but Liberal Western observers mostly equate Marxism–Leninism with anti-capitalism. --TIAYN (talk) 16:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

This is not an article on Falun Gong[edit]

Notwithstanding certain editor's zeal for attacking the current government of china over the dispute between the cult and the communist party, this article is about China as a whole. As such, an accumulation of unnecessary detail regarding the various claims and counter-claims regarding the Falun Gong are out of place here. We have articles about the cult just for that. With respect to WP:DUE can we please keep extraneous details to a minimum? Simonm223 (talk) 23:15, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Agree. The organ harvesting claims are undue imo.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:59, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
This isn't the first time this has happened, so I'm not surprised that this is going on again. I'd rather not have the article's quality become significantly degraded because editors with a political axe to grind are intent on forcing their undue content on this page, it's taken a long time and lot of hard work amongst plenty of editors for us to reach this far. If anyone remembers this article from 2009, it was a horribly written one. --benlisquareTCE 08:19, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
I walked away from trying to keep the Falun Gong pages and the organ harvesting pages under control as keeping those in some semblance of WP:NPOV is a constant and unending struggle. I'm not willing to walk away from core China articles. They're too important. I am still of the opinion that both the Kilgour / Mattas report and Ethan Guttman's book are no more reliable for the fraught matter of Chinese organ transplantation than the China Daily would be. They're misled by an aggressive misinformation campaign at best, propaganda at worst. Simonm223 (talk) 11:13, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
The Persecution of Falun Gong has been happening since 1999. Because there were 70 million practitioners in China its significant. The CCP doesn't just persecute practitioners it also affects family members. Persecution of Falun Gong is a comprehensive wiki article with 161 references. I see no reason why there shouldn't be a paragraph about the persecution of Falun Gong in the China article.Aaabbb11 (talk) 13:30, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Almost all of which depend on Kilgour / Mattas or FLG claims to support them, while authors like Kavan who have discussed how the FLG uses claims of persecution as a mechanism of driving group cohesion and how practicioners have been instructed by Li Hongzhi to lie to journalists regarding FLG teachings, especially the bits about aliens and the straight-up racism have been sidelined or removed. And you know what? I'm past caring about that disaster area of a propaganda job. But it's not spreading to the China article. Simonm223 (talk) 13:36, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Aaabbb11, this is a general country article. All sorts of things might have happened, however that is not what this article is for. It is not a catch-all article that covers all remotely-related topics, nor an indiscriminate repository of all information that falls within a certain bracket; rather, it is an article that deals with a very large topic, and there is much more to the topic of "China" than politics. These articles are supposed to cover geography, history, economy, demographics, society, and the much broader topics that cover the central topic of "China". Forcing in a disproportionate amount of niche information specific to one subtopic constitutes WP:UNDUE, and it's for the same reason why the India article doesn't have huge chunks of content dedicated to curry samosas (they belong in the Indian cuisine article), and why the South Korea article doesn't have huge chunks of content related to e-sports (they belong in the Korean e-Sports Association article). In your case, your new additions belongs in Human rights in China or Falun Gong, but definitely not here.

There has been longstanding community consensus that country articles should not be inundated with politics-centred content, and if you continue to disbalance the POV of an article by shifting the due coverage of content away from neutrality, then I'm afraid you are the one who is violating Wikipedia's core principles, policies and guidelines. --benlisquareTCE 14:06, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

The Persecution of Falun Gong is a very serious and current human rights issue in China, not politics. There is only one link on the article to Amnesty and its dead. So the article would appear to need updating. Never heard of e sports before, but thanks for the info.Aaabbb11 (talk) 17:25, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm getting the feeling that I'm talking to a wall here, so if you're not willing to compromise then I have no choice but to give up. It doesn't matter how noble your brilliant cause is, you need to adhere to WP:UNDUE. If the persecution of FLG is a serious human rights issue in China, then your content belongs in human rights in China, which means that you've essentially helped me answer your own questions. And before you play the "but it's an important issue" card, keep in mind that your past actions involve forcing in a WP:NOTNEWS sentence about Jiang Zemin dating back to 2009 which has little to no lasting impact on the wider topic, in addition to edit warring over wording without even discussing the issue properly. --benlisquareTCE 18:22, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Edits such as this [1] walk a very fine line with regard to Wikipedia's policies on tendentious editing. When you've just been advised, at some length, that there is a long-standing community consensus that inserting Falun Gong related content is not in keeping with WP:DUE to give the Falun Gong their own section as your very next edit is... well, it's difficult to assume good faith although I'm really trying. Simonm223 (talk) 13:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Other spiritual practices[edit]

There should be a new heading for other spiritual practices under Demographics

Falun Gong is a spiritual practice rather than a religion.Aaabbb11 (talk) 15:47, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

A few things - A) No, there are a plethora of reliable sources (Kavan and Ownby for instance) that characterize the Falun Gong as a religion. B) The percentage of the Chinese population that adheres to other faiths, including the FLG is tiny, WP:DUE does not warrant a section for "other spiritual practices" separate from the religion section. C) Even if that was the case, you gave the Falun Gong almost as much text there as Buddhism gets. That's also not within the bounds of WP:DUE. D) There's a certain of WP:IDHT going on here. Simonm223 (talk) 15:52, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Agree with Simonm223. Please do not reinsert the section heading. Thanks.  Philg88 talk 15:57, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
This article is not an indiscriminate repository of everything related to China. A few brief mentions is tolerable, but you've essentially made a section dedicated to FLG, for the sake of tipping the balance towards FLG. Having a dedicated section is a completely different scenario to having a few sentences, it's a blatant attempt at forcing in imbalance in content. And don't pretend to be unaware by playing coy and giving me some sort of "it's not a FLG section, it's a spiritual practice section" excuse, you're not fooling anyone when the only mention the section contains relates to FLG. --benlisquareTCE 15:58, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@Simonm223 Just because you write a book about Falun Gong doesn't mean you know all the facts about it. The first sentence of the Falun Gong article states, "Falun Gong or Falun Dafa (literally means "Dharma Wheel Practice" or "Law Wheel Practice") is a Chinese spiritual practice for mind and body."
The first reference on Falun Gong is
Seth Faison, "In Beijing: A Roar of Silent Protestors", New York Times, 27 April 1999. Quote: "Buddhist Law, led by a qigong master named Li Hongzhi, claims to have more than 100 million followers. Even if that is an exaggeration, the government's estimate of 70 million practitioners represents a large group in a nation of 1.2 billion."Aaabbb11 (talk) 16:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Even if there are currently 70 million FLG adherents (and I suspect that number has shrunk in the intervening decade and a half with Li Hongzhi no longer able to proselytize in China) that represents 0.06% of the total population of China, in 1999, and even less now. With regard to your protestations regarding characterizing them as a religion, Kavan is an expert in the Falun Gong she represents the gold standard for a reliable source regarding the religion. And even so, this still does not address any of the commentary from any of the editors who have pointed out to you the clear consensus that your edits are undue detail on the Falun Gong inserted for the sole purpose of shifting the POV of the article toward your (in my opinion) fringe claims of a genocide. Simonm223 (talk) 16:35, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Kavan hasn't been used for any of the 241 references on Falun Gong. The people who really know about FG are long term practitioners. I think you will find your figure of 0.06% is incorrect. Try multiplying by 100.Aaabbb11 (talk) 18:07, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
1.35 billion. Dropping 150 million people isn't quite a small thing, you know (you just ignored the equivalent to the total population of Japan or Russia). As for that 70 million figure, that figure is from 1999, and represents the worldwide population of adherents; it's fallacious to include British adherents of FLG in a WP:SYNTHesised percentage figure of the Chinese population. Just in case I'm not being clear enough, 1999 was 16 years ago, my co-workers have children who are now 16 years old. With a stretch of almost two decades, we're talking about a long timespan here. Do you know how many years it took for the Ottoman Empire to lose 70% of its territory? --benlisquareTCE 16:36, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Pop of China in 1999 was less than 1.3 billion. The vast majority of FG live in China. You can figure that out from the FG article.Aaabbb11 (talk) 18:07, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
My point just went over your head. Please, at least maintain some degree of intellectualism, and read the entire comment, not just the sections that you want to read. --benlisquareTCE 18:37, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
The 70 million is the CCP's estimate of FG. Its unlikely that includes FG outside China. And even if it does the numbers outside China are insignificant compared to China. Aaabbb11 (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
See I've seen FLG pov pushers make the claim that 70 million is a CCP number. But they always cite american sources. And we KNOW (Kavan) that american media is regularly lied to by FLG members under instruction from Li Hongzhi, and so I'd like to see a non-Epoch Times Chinese source suggesting China ever made that claim. Simonm223 (talk) 19:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I suggest you read up on the The New York Times, source for 70 million. It has won 114 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other news organization.Aaabbb11 (talk) 20:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Some estimates from 2012 put the Falun Gong population, at its height, at closer to between 280,000 and 650,000. [2] (Queue the usual argument that anybody from China critical of the Falun Gong is a liar while all Falun Gong people are 100% truthful in 5,4,3,2,1) Simonm223 (talk) 16:57, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I suggest you look at the Falun Gong article for numbers of FG. Insignificant views should hot appear there. Its been through many thousands of edits.Aaabbb11 (talk) 18:07, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Two things - 1) Wikipedia is not a WP:RS for other articles. 2) I wasn't trying to include that entirely significant estimate of the (much lower than FLG claim) FLG population in this or any other article. I was just pointing out, on talk, that YOUR claim as to the size of the religion is not entirely uncontroversial, and may be substantially less than the FLG claims. Simonm223 (talk) 18:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

The Falun Gong article has gone through many thousands of edits and its listed as a good article. Some of the people who make edits on the FG article are quite knowledgeable. Although the China article is listed as a good article it doesn't seem to have the same level of unbiased input.Aaabbb11 (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Oh give it a rest. Again, notwithstanding the barbed comments, Wikipedia is not a WP:RS for other articles, no matter how good an article is categorized. Simonm223 (talk) 19:35, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Can you really not see anything wrong in this article?Aaabbb11 (talk) 20:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
This is some serious cognitive dissonance right here. You're complaining that this article is not impartial because you can't have your own way over here? Seriously, I'm not sure who you're trying to convince with that sort of reasoning. You are clearly WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, you're here solely to push your own agenda, and will cry wolf at any opportunity because it's always everyone else who's at fault. Have a look at your past 500 contributions, are there any edits of yours that are not dedicated to pushing a pro-FLG POV? This is essentially a perfect textbook example of a WP:BATTLEGROUND editor, your account's sole purpose is to focus on FLG damage control. --benlisquareTCE 20:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Have look at my user pageAaabbb11 (talk) 21:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
As for the WOEFUL exclusion of Kavan as a source from FLG articles, that's because of FLG POV pushers cutting out dissenting views.Simonm223 (talk) 19:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

This is pointless. I've said my piece. I don't want to get dragged into this nonsense anymore. Simonm223 (talk) 20:27, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Simonm223, I suggest giving it a rest, I really don't think Aaabbb11's going to bother to listen no matter what you say. You're only going to end up with the same stubborn WP:DEADHORSE responses over and over again, it's a waste of your time and energy. --benlisquareTCE 20:45, 31 March 2015 (UTC)


I'm reviewing some of the exchanges here, and have a few thoughts.
  • The notion of religion in China is a bit different from how it's conceptualized it in the West. I understand that before the 1900s, there really was no word for "religion" as there is now. Spiritually was just something that permeated a lot of different aspects of the culture. This article also makes that point, noting that for many people, aspects of Buddhism, Daosim, Confucianism, and folk traditions all sort of blend together. Despite these caveats, I have no objection to religion as a subject heading. The meaning is clearly understood, and it can encompass quite a lot.
  • One other option to consider is to modify the sentence on qigong a touch. For example it could note that from the 1970s onward, hundreds of millions of Chinese citizens participated in various qigong exercises, including but not limited to Tai Chi and Falun Gong.
  • Self-published sources (i.e. books from iuniverse press) are not reliable when it comes to establishing demographic numbers for any religious group.
  • On how the page should cover Falun Gong more generally, this article covers China in its entirety, from ancient times to the present, and even very important topics and are likely to get only one or two sentences. From that perspective, it doesn't make sense to have a stand-alone section on Falun Gong. One or two lines is appropriate, but should be kept as a very high level summary with wikilinks to the relevant articles as required. Organ harvesting is just one category of the persecution, and does not need to be singled out on this page. I make a couple edits to the human rights section with the goal of providing a more general overview of this issue, keeping it concise. Keihatsu talk 22:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I wasn't really intending to include that source anywhere. I've just got a little hot under the collar dealing with Aaabbb11's unremitting campaign to shoehorn Falun Gong accusations into every article. And I stand by what I said about not seeing a Chinese source that ever attributed the number of 70 million as a government estimate of the Falun Gong. (In fact I suspect that many american sources may be conflating FLG population estimates with estimates for the population of qigong organization membership). Anyway, WP:NOTAFORUM applies and I'll cop to going off topic for this article a bit yesterday, so I'm going to stop now on the issue of Falun Gong demographics on this page. Just felt that it would be appropriate to contextualize those comments from yesterday. Simonm223 (talk) 10:43, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Organ harvesting[edit]

I think this should be mentioned in article, and Ethan Gutmanns estimate of 65,000 being killed, because it is objective information about numbers killed. For other types of persecution in China (for FG anyway) its unclear how many have been killed. The number killed shows how big the problem is. (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Aaabbb11 - thank you for trying to discuss. I'm open to a possible compromise, but I'm not sure you'll be entirely satisfied with my proposal. I suggest adding, at the end of the sentence on Falun Gong, another short line to the effect of "In addition, some researchers estimate that tens of thousands of Falun Gong adherents, Uyghurs, and prisoners may have been killed to supply a trade in human organs." That's pretty close to my maximum position, personally. In a more focused article Ethan Gutmann's findings could be included, but I'm not comfortable singling out a single researcher here. I'm also wary of the false precision involved in citing that number, as Gutmann himself supplies a pretty large estimate range, with 65,000 being the median.Keihatsu talk 02:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Of the three key organ harvesting investigators David Matas, David Kilgour) and Gutmann, Gutmann is the only one to estimate the numbers killed. Gutmann doesn't have to be mentioned, but his estimate was published by Prometheus Books. Two independent reviews of his 2014 book published 65,000 from 2000 to 2008. While in an interview with the Toronto Star he stated, "The number of casualties is close to 100,000."Q&A: Author and analyst Ethan Gutmann discusses China’s illegal organ trade. Gutmanns's guesstimate of Tibetans, Uyghurs and House Christians killed was 2,000 to 4,000.
But I think its important to mention that 5 leaders were indicted for genocide because that is objective information, which makes the situation quite clear. I'm OK with tens of thousands killed if 5 leaders being indicted for genocide is mentioned. Sure things have be kept very brief in an article like this but I can see less important info that could easily be deleted.Aaabbb11 (talk) 04:04, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm afraid I just don't agree with you on the genocide issue. It can be mentioned on those respective officials' pages and pages about Falun Gong where appropriate, but it's undue weight here. If there were actual findings of guilt, I might reconsider, but with indictments alone I don't see a compelling case. And it does not seem that you've convinced other editors either.Keihatsu talk 04:55, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The campaign against FG began in 1996 with banning FG books. So no need to mention, "large-scale demonstration in Beijing", which was probably a peaceful gathering see Falun Gong. When you gather in large numbers no need to demonstrate. Numbers is all that's needed.
Kilgour and Matas stated, "we believe that there has been and continues today to be large scale organ seizures from unwilling Falun Gong practitioners". And there's no "may" or Uighurs in their conclusions and only have Falun Gong prisoners of conscience [3] No need to mention "trade in human organs". 70 million practitioners should also be mentioned, because it shows how popular Falun Gong had become. I think it should be worded like this
Falun Gong was first taught publicly in 1992. In 1999, when there were 70 million practitioners, the Communist Party launched a campaign to eliminate Falun Gong, resulting in mass arrests, extralegal detention, and reports of torture and deaths in custody.[212][213] Kilgour, Matas and Gutmann believe that tens of thousands of practitioners, were killed for their organs.[214][215]
and remove the Communist Party to shorten it further...
Falun Gong was first taught publicly in 1992. In 1999, when there were 70 million practitioners, the persecution of Falun Gong began, resulting in mass arrests, extralegal detention, and reports of torture and deaths in custody.[212][213] Kilgour, Matas and Gutmann believe that tens of thousands of practitioners, were killed for their organs.[214][215]
This reference can be used for 70 million[1]
These references should be used [2] [3] so the reader can read more if they are interested. This ref[4] from The Toronto Star should be used as it doesn't limit the time frame to 2000 to 2008. Gutmann states, "the number of casualties is close to 100,000." This ref[5] should be included because it quotes from Ethan Gutmanns 2014 book and provides estimates of Falun Gong in the Laogai system. Aaabbb11 (talk) 09:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
In order to include Guttman's views, we need to show (1) the degree of acceptance of his views among experts and (2) that have prominence in books about China. Neither of that has been done yet. His claims are so shocking that one would expect mainstream sources would comment on them if they had any merit. TFD (talk) 01:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Larry Getlen, "China’s long history of harvesting organs from living political foes", New York Post, 9 August 2014
Barbara Turnbull (21 October 2014) "Q&A: Author and analyst Ethan Gutmann discusses China’s illegal organ trade", The Toronto Star
Mainstream newspapers seem to shy away from this issue. I'm not aware of a truly independent source in English for 5 leaders being indicted for genocide in Spain. In Spanish there is one. Aaabbb11 (talk) 02:49, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
If Gutmann's views are widely ignored in the mainstream, then weight requires us to ignore them too. The Star btw is widely respected, but it only mentions the book in the book section. What we would want to see is academic papers discussing the issue. China has political prisoners and has sold organs from executed criminals. There are unconfirmed reports they take organs from living prisoners. But Gutmann's claims go beyond that. TFD (talk) 03:34, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Jay Nordlinger (25 August 2014) "Face The Slaughter: The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem, by Ethan Gutmann", National Review
Viv Young (11 August 2014) "The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem", New York Journal of Books
Gutmann's estimates aren't shocking. Kilgour and Matas published estimates in 2006. Their work is referenced and accepted. Gutmann's estimates have been on the internet for years. Aaabbb11 (talk) 04:00, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
But their conclusions are not accepted either. It's a "walled garden", a small number of writers whose studies receive attention almost exclusively in opinion pieces in mostly right-wing media and Falun Gong's own publications. For example in The International Trafficking of Human Organs, Falun Gong is mentioned only in passing and it says they have "allegedly been targeted." TFD (talk) 14:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Trafficking isn't necessarily the same as harvesting. Its common for transplant professionals and others to refer to the Kilgour–Matas report. On the US National Library of Medicine site there are 4 articles that reference or mention it.
On annual Congressional-Executive Commission on China reports, its mentioned or referenced - 2006 report 3 times, 2007 report twice, 2009 report twice, and 2012 report once.
The Government of China attempted to rebut both versions of the report at organharvestinvestigation.net Aaabbb11 (talk) 09:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────The point is that what you find so essential to this article receives almost no coverage anywhere else. Per Balancing aspects, the article should include what sources consider important, not what you do. TFD (talk) 15:05, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Peter Murtagh, "China ‘murdering Falun Gong members for organ harvesting’", Irish Times, 11 July 2013
Thomas Nelson (Fall 2014) "The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvestings, and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem by Ethan Gutmann A Review", International Affairs Review
Gutmann's articles are published in the World Affairs Journal, The Weekly Standard and elsewhere. His estimate of 65,000 was published in the book State Organs. Google 65,000 Falun Gong and its says "about 104,000 results".
Many medical professionals believe that organ harvesting of Falun Gong is happening. Dr. Gabriel Danovitch, Professor of Medicine, Arthur Caplan, Professor of Bioethics, Dr. Jacob Lavee, cardiothoracic surgeon, Dr. Ghazali Ahmad, Professor Maria Fiatarone Singh and Dr. Torsten Trey, wrote essays for State Organs.
Transplant doctor Henkie P. Tan stated, "Everybody, any transplant position, any transplant personnel is against this. This should never have happen. We're surprised this is happening. There's no doubt about it. It should just never happen. It should be stopped." Aaabbb11 (talk) 22:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Seth Faison, "In Beijing: A Roar of Silent Protestors", New York Times, 27 April 1999
  2. ^ David Kilgour, David Matas (6 July 2006, revised 31 January 2007) An Independent Investigation into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of Falun Gong Practitioners in China (free in 22 languages) organharvestinvestigation.net
  3. ^ Jay Nordlinger (25 August 2014) "Face The Slaughter: The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem, by Ethan Gutmann", National Review
  4. ^ Barbara Turnbull (21 October 2014) "Q&A: Author and analyst Ethan Gutmann discusses China’s illegal organ trade", The Toronto Star
  5. ^ Ethan Gutmann (August 2014) The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem "Average number of Falun Gong in Laogai System at any given time" Low estimate 450,000, High estimate 1,000,000 p 320. "Best estimate of Falun Gong harvested 2000 to 2008" 65,000 p 322. amazon.com

Genocide[edit]

Not the correct avenue for discussion, go to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China instead. This page is specifically for discussing the China article, and is not a WP:FORUM for unrelated topics. This editor is discussing a content dispute that is currently occurring at articles such as Bo Xilai and Jiang Zemin. --benlisquareTCE 04:15, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If an official has been indicted for Genocide, I see no reason why it and the number of other officials also indicted for Genocide in the same case shouldn't be included in their article.Aaabbb11 (talk) 02:17, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

You don't need to start a second-level header for every single thing. Please read the talk page guidelines, this could have perfectly fitted under any of the above talk page sections as a new, unindented paragraph. --benlisquareTCE 04:06, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Actually, scratch that. This talk page is for discussing improvements to the China article only, and is not a general discussion board for all China-related topics which span other independent articles. What you are seeking is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China. This page is not a forum for discussion of topics not relevant to the contents pertaining to this specific article. --benlisquareTCE 04:13, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Sociopolitical issues, human rights and reform[edit]

I can see no reason why 2 topics are combined here - human rights and politics. Aaabbb11 (talk) 01:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Do you really need to start a second level header for every single post here? --benlisquareTCE 02:38, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
At the very least, there's meatpuppetry going on between Aaabbb11 and an old group of topic-banned pro-FLG editors including User:HappyInGeneral and User:Asdfg12345 - based on a specific pattern of behaviour I suspect, beyond meatpuppetry, Aaabbb11 is a sockpuppet of Asdfg12345 and have requested an investigation into this matter. Simonm223 (talk) 13:25, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Looks you 2 don't have any problem with what I'm proposing, which is to split the topic into 2. Both off topic (Simonm223 you are wasting people's time) Aaabbb11 (talk) 23:02, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Consensus from silence is not a valid argument on your part. You need to gain consensus, not assume consensus. Choosing to not put up with your shenanigans until you can learn to use talk pages properly does not equate to conceding to you. Also, you haven't even given it one day - are you for real? --benlisquareTCE 02:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

For the record I categorically disagree with the inclusion of any additional Falun Gong content on the China page and will continue to do so until I say otherwise. I feel no need to beat a dead horse and pop on every five minutes just to say, "No, WP:DUE" again. Simonm223 (talk) 14:47, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Socialist? Really? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.162.235 (talk) 10:42, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

CPC's power is enshrined in the constitution of the PRC?[edit]

How crazy! After 1982,the CPC has cancelled all the terms in its constitution that declare its power.Just read this (in zh-s)costitution of the PRC-- パンツァー VI-IIFu7ラジオ❂In the Republic of China 103rd.民國103年 07:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

the level of public support for the government (of the PRC) and its management of the nation is high?[edit]

I think this section is a bit one-sided.firstly,there are many di idents(like Liu Xiaobo and others) in the PRC ,opposition groups and many protests (Like the protests in support of Cantonesemedia localization in Guangzhou, 2010 and the Chinese Jasmine Revolution) in the PRC now.Secondly,the survey now isn't well-agreed and (maybe)one-sided.Thirdly,that section should cite more point of view/survey about this(like this)-- パンツァー VI-IIFu7ラジオ❂In the Republic of China 103rd.民國103年 07:43, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

@Panzer VI-II: Sorry to say, but dissidents don't make up the majority of the country (and I guess just like in democracies, the majority of people just complain and do little).. The majority of the protests are directed against local party elites, but rarely at the central party leadership (and the Chinese Jasmine Revolution barely happened; very few individuals actually met up)... The problem with the poll is that it asks if free-market economies are best (and not capitalism)... Everyone in China supports market economics (and the state does to). If the question had been, do you support capitalism the result would have been murkier... I doubt the majority of Chinese look down on the state-centered market economic model, since their living standards is improving and the country's prestige is improving. Therefore, its the question itself which is formulated wrongly. --TIAYN (talk) 12:01, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
maybe you are right...-- パンツァー VI-IIFu7ラジオ❂In the Republic of China 103rd.民國103年 12:52, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
@Panzer VI-II: This of course is Original Research from my end, but you have to agree, can you think of a country in history in which the people oppose an economic system which produces increased material comfort? ... The interesting thing here is what will happen if China faces an economic downturn that hurts the standard of living. Stalin always complained that a huge number of communist members only supported the party in good times, and left it in bad—of course Stalin was mad, but he may have had a point. Anyhow, cheers! --TIAYN (talk) 16:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

RfC on removal of native state names from article lead sentences[edit]

There was an RfC opened that might affect tens of articles, including this one. Your opinions would be welcome. WarKosign 05:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

The Chinese style guide deprecates native names in article leads as they can go in the {{Chinese}} infobox, which should have been the case here, and is now.  Philg88 talk 07:11, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2015[edit]

Imagineayacht (talk) 23:54, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Yulin Dog Meat Festival in GuangXi China

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Stickee (talk) 01:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

President of CHINA IS SOLOMON FHANTOM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.153.3.27 (talk) 11:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2015[edit]