Talk:Abortion and Christianity

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  (Redirected from Talk:Christianity and abortion)
Jump to: navigation, search

American Episcopal Church Stance[edit]

There has been lot of speculation about the American Episcopal Church stance on abortion, so I copied this from a RS: "The Episcopal Church was once pro-life: "as late as 1958 held a strong pro-life position, stating, "Abortion and infanticide are to be condemned." In 1967, the 62nd General Convention of the Episcopal Church supported abortion law "reform," to permit the "termination of pregnancy" for reasons of life, rape, incest, fetal deformity, or physical or mental health of the mother. In 1982, the 66th General Convention condemned the use of abortion as a means of gender selection and non-serious abnormalities." Unlike the rest of the Anglican Communion their official stance took a different path afterwards: "By 1988, the 69th General Convention had developed a position that stated, "All human life is sacred. Hence it is sacred from its inception until death." The statement goes on to call for church programs to assist women with problem pregnancies and to emphasize the seriousness of the abortion decision. In 1994, the 71st General Convention expressed "unequivocal opposition to any ... action ... that [would] abridge the right of a woman to reach an informed decision about the termination of her pregnancy, or that would limit the access of a woman to a safe means of acting upon her decision." In 1997, at the 72nd General Convention, the delegates approved a resolution that did not condemn partial-birth abortions but expressed grave concerns about the procedure, "except in extreme situtions."" [1] So they were once pro-life, they aknowledge the value of human life since conception but also the right to abortion, they also expressed their support for partial-birth abortion in 1997, for extreme cases. This can be used for those who want to expand the section related to the ECUSA stance on the matter.82.154.87.117 (talk) 20:01, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable source for these statements, I'm sure they would make an interesting addition to the article. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 21:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Eastern Orthodox Church[edit]

While only summarizing more basic statements in the Russian Orthodox Church's document The Basis of the Social Concept on the Church's attitude to abortion, our article gives much greater prominence to another statement by quoting it in full out of context. A careless reader might even interpret that quotation as contradicting the more basic statements of the Church's belief, and yet it does not contradict them. By taking it out of context, it is made to appear to ignore the Church's teaching that deliberate abortion is a grave sin and equivalent to murder, that even a woman who aborts because of a direct threat to her life commits a sin and must get it absolved in the sacrament of confession (in Greek terminology, the mystery of metanoia) and then perform a penance (which in the practice of the Eastern Orthodox Church involves abstension from the Eucharist for a period indicated by her confessor), and that only after that is she admitted to Eucharistic communion. While this is indeed indicated in the final phrase beginning with "provided that she ...", a reader may instead take away the impression that in such circumstances the woman is admitted to Eucharistic communion with no provisos whatever of any importance. The document actually states:

Since the ancient time the Church has viewed deliberate abortion as a grave sin. The canons equate abortion with murder. This assessment is based on the conviction that the conception of a human being is a gift of God. Therefore, from the moment of conception any encroachment on the life of a future human being is criminal.
Under no circumstances the Orthodox Church can bless abortion. Without rejecting the women who had an abortion, the Church calls upon them to repent and to overcome the destructive consequences of the sin through prayer and penance followed by participation in the salvific Sacraments.
Responsibility for the sin of the murder of the unborn child should be borne, along with the mother, by the father if he gave his consent to the abortion. If a wife had an abortion without the consent of her husband, it may be grounds for divorce (see X. 3). Sin also lies with the doctor who performed the abortion. The Church calls upon the state to recognise the right of medics to refuse to procure abortion for the reasons of conscience.

All these statements, with the exception of that about grounds for divorce, are in perfect agreement with the position that the Roman Catholic Church takes regarding deliberate abortion. But by that selective highlighting the article gives the impression of a conflict of views.

The original Russian (но это общение обусловливается исполнением ею личного покаянного молитвенного правила) and the official Greek translation ("όμως αυτή η κοινωνία προϋποθέτει την άσκηση από αυτή του προσωπικού επιτιμίου της προσευχής) make clearer than the English translation that even for a woman who aborts in those circumstances Eucharistic communion (the Greek translation omits the perhaps misleading "with the church") is conditional on doing penance. Instead of the simple "provided that ...", they say: "but this communion is conditional on (Greek, "presupposes") ..."

In addition, the article presents a false interpretation even of the words it quotes, saying they mean that the woman "is not to be excommunicated from the church because of this sin". The quotation says "excluded from the Eucharistic communion with the church", but exclusion from Eucharistic communion does not have to be the same as excommunication - even the title of the Wikipedia article "Catholic politicians, abortion and communion or excommunication" indicates that. What the Russian Orthodox Church says in this respect about women who have aborted because of direct danger to their lives, it actually says also of women who have done so in other circumstances. They too are not to be excluded from Eucharistic communion, once they have repented, confessed and done penance (presumably a heavier penance): "The Church calls upon them to repent and to overcome the destructive consequences of the sin through prayer and penance followed by participation in the salvific Sacraments". Esoglou (talk) 09:02, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

RFC regarding proposed title change of History of early Christian thought on abortion[edit]

There is a proposal to change the title of History of early Christian thought on abortion to Talk:History of early Christian thought on abortion. Please express your opinion on this proposal at Talk:History of early Christian thought on abortion. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 16:29, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

NPOV[edit]

This section is sorely lacking a neutral point of view, for example: Catholic Church https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christianity_and_abortion&action=submit#Catholic_Church "...Since the first century, the Church has affirmed that every procured abortion is a moral evil, a teaching that the Catechism of the Catholic Church declares "has not changed and remains unchangeable".

run counter to this statement tucked in neatly toward the very end of the article:

Later Christian thought on abortion https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christianity_and_abortion&action=submit#Later_Christian_thought_on_abortion St. Thomas Aquinas, Pope Innocent III, and Pope Gregory XIV also believed that a fetus does not have a soul until "quickening," or when the fetus begins to kick and move, and therefore early abortion was not murder, though later abortion was.[17][100]

Pope Innocent III was arguably the most powerful temporal leader, not only of the Papal States that he controoled, but of any country in the Western World during the High Middle Ages, and his quickening test remained as a standard within the United States until the 1850s: "Pope Innocent III (1161-1216) decreed that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not "animated" at the time and that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus."Bee Cliff River Slob (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Murder is not the only moral evil, so would you please explain the contradiction that you see and that I, perhaps because it is late in the day here, do not see. Esoglou (talk) 20:10, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 October 2014[edit]

Please change "Today, the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, opposes elective abortion except to save the life of the mother.[46] The Southern Baptist Convention calls on Southern Baptists to work to change the laws in order to make abortion illegal in most cases.[47] Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission has said that he believes abortion is more damaging than anything else, even poverty.[48]" in the Southern Baptist Convention section to "Today, the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, opposes elective abortion except to save the life of the mother.[46] The Southern Baptist Convention calls on Southern Baptists to work to change the laws in order to make abortion illegal in most cases.[47] Richard Land, former president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission has said that he believes abortion is more damaging than anything else, even poverty.[48]" because Dr. Richard Land is no longer the president of the Ethic and Religious Liberty Commission. Thank You. SJR97 (talk) 03:57, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

 Done (sort of - I put dates instead of "former") –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 04:30, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Catholic Church and abortion which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:00, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 10 external links on Abortion and Christianity. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:54, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Suggestions for the Page[edit]

A lot of the sources from this page are a bit outdated. Especially the ones from over 10 years ago. A lot of the churches listed may have come out with more explicit stances on the subject and could have changed their minds from before. The country is rapidly changing its opinion on the subject of abortion, so more research should be done on the stances of different churches. Also, the order of the page should be considered to change. The history of the subject should go first to provide context and then the different denomination's positions. A reader might want to read the context and the background first on the subject. Spark 96 (talk) 04:13, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

"AbortionFacts.com." The Christian View of Abortion. N.p., n.d. Web. 18 Oct. 2016.

@beliefnet. "The Biblical Basis ForBeing Pro-Choice." The Biblical Basis for Being Pro-Choice: Bible, Abortion, Christians, Religion. Beliefnet, Inc. And/or Its Licensors, n.d. Web. 18 Oct. 2016.

Gorman, Michael J. Abortion & the Early Church: Christian, Jewish & Pagan Attitudes in the Greco-Roman World. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 1982. Print.

Klusendorf, Scott. The Case for Life: Equipping Christians to Engage the Culture. Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2009. Print.

Liu, Joseph. "Religious Groups’ Official Positions on Abortion." Pew Research Centers Religion Public Life Project RSS. N.p., 16 Jan. 2013. Web. 18 Oct. 2016.

O'Brien, Dennis. The Church and Abortion: A Catholic Dissent. N.p.: Rowman & Littlefield, 2010. Print.

Roys, Julie, and Guest Writer. "The Secret Shame of Abortion in the Church."CT Women. N.p., Feb. 2015. Web. 18 Oct. 2016.

Sproul, R. C. Abortion: A Rational Look at an Emotional Issue. Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 1990. Print.

Turner, By Ryan. "What Does the Bible Say about Abortion?" CARM. CARM, 25 Oct. 2014. Web. 18 Oct. 2016. Spark 96 (talk) 12:05, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello, here is what I am thinking for adding to the page:[edit]

The Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod

The Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod views abortion as contrary to God's Word. The church released a statement on their website saying that abortion "is not a moral option, except as a tragically unavoidable byproduct of medical procedures necessary to prevent the death of another human being, viz., the mother."[1] The LCMS believes that whether abortion is legal or not, it does not change the fact that abortion is as sin. On the topic of whether abortion is allowed in the case of rape or incest, the LCMS has stated that though there are many "emotional arguments for abortion... the fact of the matter is that it is wrong to take the life of one innocent victim (the unborn child)...It is indeed a strange logic that would have us kill an innocent unborn baby for the crime of his father."[2]

Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod adopted a resolution in July 2011 on social issues, where it includes the twofold approach[3]:

"Encouraging the WELS ministerium to continue the faithful proclamation of God's Word also when it addresses social issues." "Encouraging the membership to be a positive influence in the battle against sin by their public testimony and vote." In this resolution of social issues, a resolution of the topic of abortion has been included. Within this resolution of the topic of abortion, the WELS continues to express its commitment to the Holy Scriptures and believes that the Holy Scriptures "clearly testify to a reverence for the life of the mother and the life of her unborn child as both being equal in value."[3] Furthermore, the intentional termination of a life should be considered a sin because the WELS would consider the unborn a life and the Bible commands against murder.[4] On the issue of the endangering the mother's life during the pregnancy, the WELS states that effort to save both the mother's and baby's life, but if that is not possible, then there should be effort to save at least one life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spark 96 (talkcontribs) 19:23, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

1. http://www.lcms.org/faqs/lcmsviews#abortion 2. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LGZ4AyTZMfUJ:www.lcms.org/document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1101+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us 3. http://wels.net/about-wels/what-we-believe/doctrinal-statements/abortion/ 4. http://wels.net/faq/abortion-a-sin/

Spark 96 (talk) 12:24, 27 October 2016 (UTC)


Overall the article is very informative and uses a variety of reliable sources. Also, the article was unbiased throughout, but could be improved with more content on each of the specific Christian denominational views and comparing the differences between them. Most views were covered, but there was not much depth in each section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelseyrouse (talkcontribs) 07:50, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Overall the article is very informative and uses a variety of reliable sources. Also, the article was unbiased throughout, but could be improved with more content on each of the specific Christian denominational views and comparing the differences between them. Most views were covered, but there was not much depth in each section.

Kelseyrouse (talk) 07:51, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Should there be a more extensive section on the history of Abortions in relationship to Christianity to provide a better understanding for why christians believe what they believe? maybe even provide a basis one why each denomination has varying stances regarding the topic. P.makakaruwang (talk) 07:52, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Evaluation[edit]

1) Everything in this article found its way back to christianity and abortion. It never strayed away from the topic and I never got distracted by the information present, which is very good and notable. I really like how the article wraps everything back up with christianity and abortion. 2) The article is very neutral. There are no parts of this article where there are biased facts/ opinions. It does a nice job at staying neutral for the reader which is very important so that there is no information that could be false due to opinionated ideas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcastro ethics (talkcontribs) 04:59, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Additions[edit]

For this page, even though it is pretty good already, I think I will try to add more information on the medical aspect of abortion and what makes a fetus an actual "living person". The whole page is all on christianity/catholicism and how they view abortion, but not other aspects.

"A Humanist Discussion on Abortion." British Humanist Association. N.p., 23 Jan. 2014. Web. 21 Oct. 2016.

Debate over abortion. (1994, May 28). Los Angeles Times (Pre-1997 Fulltext) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcastro ethics (talkcontribs) 02:52, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I feel like if we dug deeper into how the relationship between Christianity and the topic of abortions developed, we would have a better understanding of why churches stand where they stand on the issue. here are some sources that can be helpful in uncovering the development in abortion policies, ethics, and controversies. hopefully some of the sources will also give us insight to christianity's perspective as the issue grew.

Podell, Janet. Abortion. New York: H.W. WilCo., 1990. Print. The Reference shelf, v. 62, no. 4; Reference shelf, v. 62, no. 4. Rubin, Eva R. The Abortion Controversy : A Documentary History. Westport, Conn.: Greenwood, 1994. Print. Primary documents in American history and contemporary issues; Primary documents in American history and contemporary issues. Schiff, Daniel. Abortion in Judaism. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 2002. Web.

P.makakaruwang (talk) 04:19, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

With this article already being so far established, diving into that origin of dialogue for Christianity and the topic of abortions will give you some major talking points. Sounds like even more historical moments will be pumped into this article. You can discuss why different denominations of Christianity think the way they do, as well, maybe the divides between denominations and their attitudes on abortion will further reveal why these denominations exist. I think you're off to a good start. Jadcruz (talk) 08:58, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

This article does a very good job on touching the points and positions on different religions. Some good additions to make would be making more of a historical background on abortion and the history behind it involving the church. This would give more of a background on how the thoughts of abortion were back then until what it is now. It would give more of a talking point for readers to understand the stance behind abortion from back then and how it is now. By talking about the history, the article would stay more neutral and informative rather than so one sided. By talking about the other standpoint with non christians, and then bringing out the information of the stance on the church, it would be more neutral. Another thing to add in this article would be more of the politics behind abortion. The politics behind what the church has tried to do policy wise would be a good talking point and there impact on politics around the world not just the United States of America. By doing this, it gives more detail to the topic and connects the stance to what is being placed in real life. Additions to different policies and programs that were created as well as medical procedures and the ethics behind it would be great additions. Ethics such as if the mother is in danger of death unless an abortion procedure is done. Stuff like that would be great talking points for this article. Austinx1997 (talk) 20:51, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Abortion and Christianity article[edit]

I think you have a lot of great information regarding your article on abortion and christianity, and it is all helpful information. There are several different topics helping discuss parts of abortion and christianity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arapisar33 (talkcontribs) 05:18, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 14 external links on Abortion and Christianity. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:44, 13 January 2017 (UTC)