Talk:Christianity in the United States

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Adherents.com is out of date[edit]

'This Christian geography and statistics web page is copyright © 2000 by Adherents.com. Please address send comments, questions, etc. to webmaster@adherents.com. Webpage created 10 August 1999. Last updated 24 January 2000. '

It hasn't been updated since 2000 and the data is from 1990 studies. It is now unreliable compared to Pew study of 2009 and ARIS study from Trinity College of 2008. Alatari (talk) 16:23, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Is totaly WP:OR to mutliply any number by 78% or 85% and then to put 177 million in as a statistic.
  • Furthermore, per WP:BRD, you need to now discuss before making any such a change. You need to stop making edits to the page until there is a new WP:CON.
  • The Pew study is a totaly different measure than the adherents.com number. The Pew study is based merely on the self-assesment of people themselves-- and (for this reason I supose) it only measures adults.
  • The adherents.com data– if I recall-- is based on the more reliable numbers of religous bodies themselves. It is best to include both these two measures– and it would also be much better if we make the differences in these numbers more clear. I think we can also indicate that the adherents data is for 1990. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 04:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no 243m number in any of the sources. There are only two stated numbers in the sources. The outdated 1990 information from adherents of 224m and the AIS number of 173m. We need updated numbers and the ARIS is the only from this decade that states an actual total. Alatari (talk) 17:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Stop avoiding discussion. Stop making edits without discussion. Stop making edits without WP:Consensus.
You also do not show what the 173m number really is, because the AIS page is down and you give no detail. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 08:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I did try and explain the two figures in the lead but Carlaude is going delay and stall any changes to reflect the more recent figures. Adherents data is 21 years out of date. It says very clearly on their site the date of the figures. So I will tag the article as out of date. ARIS page is working for me: http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/files/2011/08/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf Alatari (talk) 08:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

AGAIN... adherent data is from 1990!!! The page is out of date... This is ridiculous that one editor refuses to accept newer information. We'll have to go to the wider Wikipedian base to get an opinion. Alatari (talk) 18:00, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

First, provide an unarguable, precise definition of what a Christian is, and then we can start discussing how many there might be. HiLo48 (talk) 21:39, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

We go by what the sources say a Christian is. The ARIS studies of 2001, 2008 and the Pew study give clear definitions of who they count and how. The information from adherents is from Russel Ash's Top Ten... book of lists from 1997 and I can't find the book and have no idea how he came up with the number 224 million and searched for an hour and found no later references to Christianity from his later publications of that Top Ten book series. No matter the quality of his work it is now 14+ years out of date whereas we have two high quality reliable polls performed in the last 5 years. There are anonymous and rogue accounts trying to push a 243m figure from unknown sources into Wikipedia Christianity articles so that they can say the USA is the largest Christian nation in the world. It's political. I have asked 3 different editors who have tried to place the 243m figure into the articles to just please give a reliable source but they won't. Wikipedia is inherently positivist in philosophy. Alatari (talk) 07:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Pushing a positivist philosophy as Wikipedian is wrong. Wikipedia is to be neutral in POV. I don't care about the claim that the USA is the largest Christian nation in the world. To state it that way would be worse than how it is stated. But Alatari seems to be wanting to censor the Adherents data because he doesn't like it– or he thinks two different numbers measuring two different things cannot both be correct and useful.
Adherents has the clear precise definition. The ARIS and Pew studies do not. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 01:22, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:RS is not anything but positivist. Adherents data comes from the Top Ten list of Ash Russel which has NO information on how it was compiled. The Adherents definition maybe correct or not. Doesn't matter when it's pulling the data from an unreliable source. Even if it IS reliable it is from 1993, 94, 95 or 96 and so it is too old for this article. I want to exclude that data because it is just too OLD... Why is this so hard to comprehend? There are newer studies. There are much newer books from Ash Top Ten series that could be quoted so why are we using information from the mid 1990's? Alatari (talk) 11:03, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

While I find you idea that Wikipedia "is not anything but positivist" as very wrong, it would be best here just to take that to Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view or another policy page, since it would have to be part of a Wikipedia policy before it was relivant here.
Ten years is only out-to-date if this was data that changed quickly— and this data just doesn't change quickly.
That said, if there is more up-to-date data of the same sort— based on the (more reliable) numbers from the religous bodies themselves— then great, we can agree to use that. şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 19:24, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Since 1990 the USA population has increased 58 million people and there have been many deaths in that time period. The adult population of Christians has dropped from 86% to 76% of the population and the number of unreligious has risen from 14 million to 34 million people. I'm confident those are large enough changes in demographics to be able to cast the 1998 Top Ten list data as out of date. Did the Top Ten books of Ash Russel stop listing Christianity? The Census Bureau isn't of help here. Alatari (talk) 17:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I tend to think that adherents.com is generally reliable, and that it is generally counted as a reliable source for our content. However, that does not necessarily mean that if it uses outdated data, that such data should be included. Whether it itself engages in OR is of course a separate matter entirely, but, if the content were to be found to be sufficiently important for inclusion in the article, for whatever reason, I think it would be acceptable to cite the information with adherents.com as the listed source. Personally, unless the article is to include information on the changes in population of Christians over time in the United States, I myself would be more inclined to not include the information and the source than to include it. John Carter (talk) 23:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

A researcher at PEW answered my email request about demographics of all US Christians:

Thanks for your inquiry about our research. I don't think we have a published document with exactly what you are looking for that is currently available. However, I can tell you that before the end of the year we expect to publish a report with the information you seek. It will describe the population of Christian adults and children, including all the details you requested and significantly more.

Best regards,

Conrad

Conrad Hackett Demographer Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life

so the new info should be available soon. Alatari (talk) 01:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod[edit]

I consider it inappropriate to lump the LCMS in with Evangelicals. Many throughout the LCMS, especially in the seminaries and institutions of theological education, constantly rail against "Evangelical Christianity," and go to great lengths to define how the LCMS differs from it. For example, this article itself defines "Evangelical" denominations as those that emphasize "personal conversion" and gospel-related action. Although the LCMS does have conservative theology, and does believe in the inerrancy and inspiration of scripture, as an Old Lutheran denomination, the LCMS most emphatically denies "personal conversion," synergism, "choosing Jesus," "making a decision for Christ," "feeling the presence of God," or anything other than Lutheran single predestination. Furthermore, the LCMS can't really be accused of emphasizing that anyone do very much of anything, gospel-related or otherwise. Even though such goading toward "right doing" may be enshrined in the theology, it is absent from the practice. 72.8.255.85 (talk) 23:16, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

You're probably right. I think it comes from the desire to categorize all Protestants as either "mainline" or "Evangelical", which isn't really accurate. Angr (talk) 06:39, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Data for useful graph[edit]

Data from [1] may be extracted and redone as a free license graph to be added here (and to articles about irreligion in the US). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:46, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Looks like straight copyright infringement to me. How would it be a free license? tahc chat 21:55, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Re:Demographics by state[edit]

Someone needs to edit the image so that the key is available on the Wikipedia page. It took me several clicks to find out what those colors were supposed to mean. I'm not familar with how to do it, or I may do it myself. If someone has a good refernce I'm will to give it a shot Fulner (talk) 15:35, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

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