Talk:Christmas

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Former featured article Christmas is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

Possible Inconsistencies[edit]

The first paragraph of section "20th century" and the first one of "Decorations" are inconsistent:

20th century[edit]

Up to the 1950s, in the UK, many Christmas customs were restricted to the upper classes and better-off families. The mass of the population had not adopted many of the Christmas rituals that later became general. The Christmas tree was rare.

Decorations[edit]

The practice of putting up special decorations at Christmas has a long history. In the 15th century, it was recorded that in London it was the custom at Christmas for every house and all the parish churches to be "decked with holm, ivy, bays, and whatsoever the season of the year afforded to be green".[161]

Restructuring[edit]

This article has been around since 2001. I think some restructuring is in order. There are repetitions. Material is presented out of sequence.

Specifically, IMO, the reason for the new holiday should be presented first (heresy). Then the selection of December 25 - start with Quarto-decimals, leading (eventually) to the change by Pope Julius. Different dates for the Orthodox. A bit confusing because the Orthodox dates are sometimes Julian and slide into the Epiphany over the millennia!. I don't have suggestions after that point, but that bit of editing will take some work. I don't have the time right now. Leave me a note and I will eventually look back here. Thanks.

I don't do edit wars. If this is an "edit war" page, forget it! Student7 (talk) 18:50, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

@Student7: Not to fear. If you put a {{under construction}} template on the article as your first edit (and remember to remove it when you're done) I don't think that you would be bothered. Alternately, you could make a copy of the article as it is now and modify it in your own sandbox and put into place when you're done. If you really want to avoid edit wars, you could ask for a review of your sandboxed version. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:07, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
Christmas has a unique three-mass liturgy, which gave the priest three opportunities to denounce heresy. (Julius was a vigorous opponent of Arianism.) There is no reason to think that the feast was created to counter some group that questioned whether or not Jesus had actually been born. I think this is getting into WP:OR territory. NCE has a full-length article on Pope Julius, but it doesn't say anything about him splitting Christmas and Epiphany. Here is what it does say: "An anonymous author known as the CHRONOGRAHER of 354 recorded that Rome observed the birth date of Jesus on December 25, but indicates that the practice had been known since 336. This means that Julius was the first pope to celebrate Christmas on the now traditional day." Julius was pope from 337 to 352, according to the article. Pandas and people (talk) 00:27, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Inserted Baylor.edu footnote, as mentioned above. This says nothing about the use of the Nativity to combat Arianism. I don't doubt that Julian fought Arianism, however.
Thanks for the suggestion, Walter. I will be unable to do much between now and mid-January. Happy editing! Student7 (talk) 17:04, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

RFC - Date formats[edit]

The closest thing to a consensus here is to stop pointlessly re-writing dates. Alsee (talk) 12:33, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the article date formats be in YMD only, MDY only, DMY only, or reverted back to December 2015 when there was both ?

--

Hi, Long story short back in December Kind Tennis Fan had converted the entire article to MDY[1] - There was no consensus for this nor was there any discussion, So having seen Walter Görlitz convert all dates to MDY I then had converted everything to YMD, Since then there's been a disagreement/edit war over this so I wanted to get a wider discussion as to what should be used or done,
I had attempted to revert back to Dec 2015 and readd all of the edits however it would've took forever and was way too much so I had self-reverted and decided to start an RFC, Thanks, –Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 23:34, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

My personal preference would be to revert the article back to December 2015 where both date formats (DMY & YMD) were used however that would result in a loss of everyones edits, Anyway thanks, –Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 23:34, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
Of the options you present reversion to when both were in use is the worst. MDY/DMY is always going to lead to factional infighting, both are pretty awful. I have kicked off a discussion at Use dmy dates#Visibility asking for a hatnote to be produced by the template, since as well as confusing editors these two styles confuse readers. YMD is the best of the options you provide. The one you haven't mentioned, that of spelling out the month in full, is the best of the lot. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 00:15, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I do MDY without really thinking about it. If someone else takes responsibility, it's all the same to me. It should be one way or the other, not restored to an earlier mixed format. Pandas and people (talk) 00:44, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Hi Martin, Perhaps I'm thinking of this in a different way to others but to me one format shouldn't take over another especially when both have been used for a good 5-6 years without any issues in this article, Unfortunately with this being an English site both Brits and Americans clash over various things (spellings, dates etc etc), Usually for American articles I would use MDY and British would be DMY however because this is a worldwide article I don't really see why one format should take over another especially when as I say both have been used for a good 5-6 years without issue,
It's not so much a "taking over" but of settling on one format so as not to confuse the reader. My favourite Wikiphrase is "remember WP:RF", which I fear is something that can get lost in discussions such as this. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:20, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I whole-heartedly agree the reader always comes first here, But if you're a British user coming here and seeing the dates all in "the wrong way" I would imagine they'd want them changed but wouldn't know how to (It's the exact same with Americans ie them seeing the dates in DMY and pobably wanting them changed), See having them as both would've kept both sides of the pond happy and I wonder if having these as YMD would also confuse the readers, It's a tough one, Thanks, –Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 13:42, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
In hindsight reverting back was and still is rather disruptive and I think keeping them in YMD is the best option as that way it stops this crap, Thanks, –Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 01:53, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
Keeping would be MDY not DMY. Sorry. And you're right, standardizing on a date format would stop this crap. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:15, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
There's absolutely no reason to have this article in MDY especially when most countries go by DMY anyway?!, Unless you can actually explain why MDY should be used in the article then I see no reason why it should remain and having as YMD stops this crap!, Having it as DMY or MDY just causes moronic issues like this. –Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 02:49, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
There absolutely no reason to have this article move away from MDY format especially when most authors supported it at the time of selection. See. Two editors can make absolute statements. I can see that there is no way to sway your opinion away from DMY and even after an editor you called to the RfC gave you a reason and changed the date format. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:17, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
The only reason no one objected is because no one knew and at the time I never knew either, Wrong - As you have been repeatedly told I don't want DMY in the article - Sure it would actually make sense if it was however having it as DMY would ignite this exact discussion which is why as you have been told I would prefer YMD, I haven't asked anyone to come here so that's utter bollocks for a start and to accuse me of CANVASSING is absolutely laughable!, Also just to clarify - I'm the one who has changed it to YMD and I'm the one who as of this morning has self reverted and changed it back to MDY, You have absolutely no reason as to why this should be in a completely different format other than "another editor done it" - Not really a compelling arguement. –Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 13:34, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Colossal shrug. I wish I had some brilliant insight to offer, but honestly, Santa is free to come down my chimney on 25 December or on December 25 or in the middle of the merry month of May, for all I care. Neither format bothers me in the slightest, and neither does a mixture in the same article—as long as there's consistency within a given sentence or, preferably, an entire paragraph. While consistency per se may be a net positive across various articles, complete consistency is unlikely to do more good than harm; there should always be room for exceptions. There's a lot of quiet date-format changing goes on, just as there are a lot of WP:ENGVAR-related spelling changes. Often it's ignorant (edit summary: "typo"), usually it's well meaning, and it really shouldn't be a big deal in articles lacking a regional focus. By the same token, if someone changes it back again, that shouldn't be a big deal either. If, by sheer numbers, speakers of American English are overwhelming international articles, that strikes me as both unfortunate and inevitable. RivertorchFIREWATER 15:46, 28 December 2016 (UTC) Added: I will say this much more: the DMY format seems more logical, so I'm always glad to see it (and apply it) in an article. MDY is what many of us are used to, but tradition is rarely a good reason for intransigence. Probably beyond the scope of this non-centralized discussion, I know. RivertorchFIREWATER 05:50, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer for this. Personally, I vote for MDY. Grammarphile (talk) 18:40, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the article should be harmonized under one standard, and since it already is standarized MDY, we should keep it that way.--Adam in MO Talk 04:36, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
I'm not trying to argue as ofcourse you're entitled to your opinions but just because one format was applied it doesn't mean it's correct ?, That's like me coming here and applying DMY ... I too would expect some crap for it (ignoring the accidental DMY-convert days ago), I hate to sound like a broken record but I don't see any policies that state "articles should be in one format" especially where the article is a worldwide thing and not just a british or american article, As I said I'm honestly not trying to argue at all I'm just trying to get a better understanding of why we should use one format over another "just because it was applied rightly or wrongly", –Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 21:20, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
MOS:ENGVAR covers this, particularly at MOS:ARTCON. Commonality within an article is required, an international form is preferred ("Prefer vocabulary common to all varieties of English") but if there is no common ground settle on ONE format. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:24, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Discussion between Dave & Walter
Davey's comment that "if you're a British user coming here and seeing the dates all in 'the wrong way' I would imagine they'd want them changed but wouldn't know how to" is colossally ignorant, I'm sorry to say. 65 million in the UK could be confused. Add another approximately 25 million for Australia and 5 million for New Zealand. Canadians are familiar with both formats (but MDY is more common) while the population of the US, if they found DMY would leave about 325 million confused. That's three times the number. So your argument based on numbers doesn't work at all. Unless of course, you include the population of India, and then all bets are off. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:14, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Finding (or at least trying to find) faults in every answer I make doesn't help you, I or this RFC, If you read my comment carefully I did say "if you're a British user coming here and seeing the dates all in "the wrong way" I would imagine they'd want them changed but wouldn't know how to (It's the exact same with Americans ie them seeing the dates in DMY and probably wanting them changed)," - I'm not going to sit here and single handedly name every country that uses DMY or MDY however the point was readers of any nationality could be confused, I'm not going to argue with you for another week we'v already done that directly above. –Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 00:55, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to find faults, simply pointing out that it's a flawed argument. And for the record, you refuse to accept that there is a date format that is applied even if it was applied incorrectly. You also have made it clear you won't accept any date other than DMY. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:01, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Based on that assumption, WP:SNOWBALL is likely the best option and continue with the current format as applied. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:04, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Wrong - As I've said above "I think keeping them in YMD is the best option as that way it stops this crap" ... I think that speaks for itself, SNOWBALL's irrelevant at this stage, Anywho I've collapsed this as we should let others have their say and not take up the RFC with our issues, Anyway have a great day. –Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 01:20, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Wrong - YMD is not the best option either as it's not common in prose, but we can certainly make all of the references use that date format. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:56, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment the article appears to use both UK and US varieties of spelling, so there doesn't seem an established Engvar, nor is there a close cultural connection to any English country. YMD/YDM seems like the worst option as being 'foreign' to everybody. DMY is standard for spoken UK English and letters, but is actually being widely replaced by MDY in 'press' English (news sources increasingly use it as standard). Why not embrace the season of goodwill (or toss a coin? or establish what the original Engvar was?) and just settle for one or the other, which if we wish to serve the max. number of readers would probably be MDY. It would upset me as a Brit to read Shakespeare/Churchill/Westminster articles written in US English, but Christmas? I couldn't give a FFFfffffff … …, nor should anyone else. Pincrete (talk) 19:11, 5 January 2017 (UTC) Religion and philosophy category? Hasn't anybody here read The Santa Delusion ?
Can't say I've ever seen YDM, it would be guaranteed to cause problems. The ISO standard of YMD seems logical, if unfamiliar. If you actually want to make it read easily and be informative to all readers simply spell out the month. 11/12/2012 is confusing, 11 December 2012 is not. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:30, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
Can't do YMD in prose. Standardizing on spelling would also be appropriate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:40, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Keep existing. The Manual of style specifies that the entire article should be in a single format, preferably the one that has evolved. There is no better one, only different, equally inadequate alternatives, so why switch over? (Eventually this should be a user-switch allowing all users to see their preferred format; see Wikipedia:Date debate for discussion on this.) Clean Copytalk 12:23, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2017[edit]

Section : References Reference No: 238 "Christmas controversy article – Muslim Canadian Congress.[dead link]" it is a Dead Link Replace this Reference with

[1] i found it on the web and it is relevant to the christmas page and i think people want to know about facts of christmas

I hope you will replace this dead reference with i suggested above for more user engagement.

Thank you Zayn Mk (talk) 12:59, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Not done: Thanks for the suggestion, but the reference you suggest does not meet the Wikipedia guideline for reliable sources. RivertorchFIREWATER 13:39, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

References