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Page name

Editors sometimes propose that the page should be renamed to male circumcision, male genital mutilation, or male genital cutting. Consensus has rejected these proposals, because they are used in only a small minority of reliable sources. Most reliable sources refer to circumcision as "circumcision"; thus, in accordance with WP:TITLE, Wikipedia does the same.

Circumcision was one of the Natural sciences good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

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Date	Process	Result
February 3, 2013	Peer review	Reviewed
February 12, 2013	Good article nominee	Listed
March 14, 2022	Good article reassessment	Delisted

Current status: Delisted good article

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved.

Move logs: Circumcision
Male Circumcision

Discussions:

RM, Circumcision → Male Circumcision, No consensus, 18 June 2008, discussion
RM, Circumcision → Male circumcision, No consensus, 13 August 2009, discussion
RM, Circumcision → Male circumcision, Not moved, 20 July 2010, discussion
RM, Circumcision → Male circumcision, Not moved, 10 October 2022, discussion

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"Topics that spark Wikipedia 'edit wars' revealed". BBC News. 18 July 2013. Retrieved 18 July 2013.

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Circumcision in Australia[edit]

This article claims that circumcision is common in Australia, but that is no longer the case. According to the Australian government, only about 10% of new borns go through the procedure https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/amp/article/circumcision 49.199.181.240 (talk) 22:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to that, the Health Direct page links to https://raisingchildren.net.au/newborns/health-daily-care/health-concerns/circumcision, which paints a very different picture to what's written in this Wikipedia article:

"The only major western country where circumcision is very common is the United States. Circumcision is uncommon in the United Kingdom, most of Europe and Asia, South America and Central America." Sleepy.lion1668 (talk) 04:05, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bioethics of circumcision[edit]

Should we re-add ethics to the lead? We previously agreed in past discussions on having controversies like bioethics included in the lead. Prcc27 (talk) 22:08, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We'd be scrapping the bottom of controversies if it was added. I don't think many healthy, psychologically normal people care about the subject matter to any serious extent. No one really cares if they're circumcised or not. As a Mexican, we sometimes jab Canadians and Americans about it in various comedy shows, but as a ranchy joke rather than a serious issue. I'm against the idea. I'm uncut and think it's stupid but that's hardly a controversy. A lot of people do a lot of stupid things. FootballRocker (talk) 19:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like you are basing this on your own anecdotal experiences..? Ethics is absolutely an important controversy. Major medical organizations tend to address the issue of ethics in their policy statements on circumcision. Also, pretty ridiculous for you to insinuate that caring about one’s circumcision status somehow makes you psychologically abnormal. Prcc27 (talk) 05:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based on previous discussions, a concise reference to it might be warranted. Piccco (talk) 21:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Circumcision's not controversial enough for this to be added. Only abortion, female genital mutilation, and a few other topics have any mention of controversy in their leads.

Gender-affirming surgery, gender-affirming care, labiaplasty, pearling, and other articles (in my view) have set WP: PRECEDENT for this; none mention it in theirs. KlayCax (talk) 16:02, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus[edit]

Hi, @Prcc27:. Where are you getting the notion that there's a present consensus to include it in the lead? KlayCax (talk) 00:15, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's currently no mention to the ethical views on circumcision in the lead, and there has to be one, since that has always been the standard. I don't have any specific wording in mind and I think any mention has to be concise. If I remember correctly there used to be a sentence saying that "there are various ethical, cultural, etc. views on circumcision". That was decent. Piccco (talk) 00:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am fine with using different wording if other users think the current wording is too vague. I would be open to the previously used “there are various ethical, cultural, etc. views on circumcision” wording as a compromise. Prcc27 (talk) 01:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm mystified why "theologians" are being invoked anywhere. Bon courage (talk) 01:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bon courage: Theologians shouldn't be mentioned in the lead at all. Agreed.

@Piccco:/@Prcc27:. Wikipedia almost never lists ethical disputes/controversies in the articles of medical procedures and/or body modifications unless it is overwhelmingly notable. Even cases such as gender-affirming care and gender-affirming surgery make no mention of controversy as it's seen as "poisoning the well" against the topic in question. The same applies to articles surrounding tattoos, piercings, and other adornments, despite similar controversy in some cultures. Circumcision is nowhere near as controversial as a subject such as abortion. It's legal in every polity. At the very least, it should only be considered if neonatal circumcision is criminalized in at least one country or reaches some sort of widespread controversy.

Neither is presently the case. We also already talk about the debate in developed countries already. KlayCax (talk) 02:03, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We do not have to use the “theologians” wording, and we have used different wording without that term in the past. Something can be legal yet controversial. Just this week, the U.S. state of New Hampshire debated whether or not it should be funded by taxpayers, and ethics was discussed in the debate. More importantly, major medical organizations mention ethics in their policy statements. A concise sentence in the lead is not WP:UNDUE. Prcc27 (talk) 03:58, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The criteria is generally substantial controversy. Not merely "controversy has happened".

The New Hampshire bill was about Medicare funding. It wasn't about the ethics of the procedure. Many states in the United States already do not cover it.

Many people support defunding it (including me) but would also say that the actual consequences of the procedure are relatively neutral/non-impactful in developed countries. KlayCax (talk) 20:17, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Says who? That is not what any Wikipedia policy or guideline says. WP:WBA does say the lead should mention "consequential or significant criticism or controversies" in the lead. I already explained how the controversy is significant in my remarks above. Having "substantial" be the threshold would be WP:UNDUE. To answer your question about gender affirming care, I am not aware of any major medical organizations going into great detail about ethical controversies. Furthermore, that article does not have a section on ethics, this article does. The Lead should follow the body. Prcc27 (talk) 21:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How is controversy surrounding circumcision "consequential" or "significant"? KlayCax (talk) 18:04, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue any consistently reported controversy regarding a medical procedure is probably significant enough to mention. RakdosWitch (talk) 19:54, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wording[edit]

It appears we have a consensus that controversy/ethics should be included in the lead. We may need to get a stronger consensus on what that wording should actually be though. The theologian wording seems to not have much support. There used to be a sentence on bioethics (i.e. major medical organizations hold “widely variant perspectives on the bioethics” of circumcision) so that could be an option as well. If I am not mistaken, isn’t KlayCax the person that came up with “there are various ethical, cultural, etc. views on circumcision”? Seems like a reasonable compromise, unless/until we can expand on and improve the wording. Prcc27 (talk) 16:31, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]