|WikiProject Politics||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
- 1 Merger
- 2 Weasel Words
- 3 Removal of vandalism
- 4 class war myths
- 5 Article Improvement
- 6 Superficial Approach
- 7 Dumb article
- 8 Class Warfare in the US
- 9 Apologies
- 10 Also, it's inaccurate
- 11 POV
- 12 Criticisms of the concept
- 13 Is this page really necessary?
- 14 Missing the point completely
- 15 Class conflict is not only a communist or socialist idea
- 16 Combining the Class Conflict and Class Struggle Article
- 17 untitled/clueless
- 18 Source for how "Buffet and Soros stand to make very large financial gains as a result of anticipated government action"?
- 19 Worst article I've ever read
- 20 FTR
- 21 Where is Poland?
Arguably, there is little fundamental difference between the class warfare that existed between the Victorian era monarchy and the common public, and a modern corporation and its workers.
Salvor Hardin 14:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps. The corporation is a legal entity that even its defenders know is a legal entity and not a force of nature. While monarchies claimed their existance was sanctioned by the gods.
Simbad Bob 12:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Removal of vandalism
"Class warfare is also a form of extreme violence that takes place between students in British state schools. Weapons used in a “class war” include nuclear warhead tipped paper aeroplanes and hollow ball point pen rocket launchers. Class wars are often caught on video using mobile phones. The Daily Hate Mail is an honest and outspoken investigative publication that first brought class wars to the publics’ attention."
I have removed this ridiculous, and rather unfunny paragraph.
- I missed it and find it to be funny. Jokes are vandalisim? Thank you for preserving it here. It didn't belong in the article. Raggz 06:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
class war myths
Class war or class conflict is not a concept born out of Marxism nor first identified by Karl Marx. Conflicts between social classes goes way back and was identified by even Aristotle.
Also since it has been observed since way before gravity was labeled, it could be argued that it is as natural. Perhaps Aristotle experts can expand thusly on the 'class conflict' article for us.
The article presumes the validity of the theory of class struggle which also infects the class war article. Class struggle, an by extension, class war is by no means a proven concept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 04:01, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Simbad Bob 12:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- We should look for and present all major points of view about class conflict: natural (Aristotle), inevitable (Marx), tragic (Moon), etc. --Uncle Ed 14:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- And where's the French Revolution - probably the most important class conflict in history. Donnacha 15:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Without some reference to the important views of Vilfredo Pareto and Nietzsche on the subject, this article will continue to be just a superficial repetition of a couple of Marxian concepts.22.214.171.124 19:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- See the above topic. This article needs the input of some serious historians - class conflict didn't start with Marx. Donnacha 22:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
This has got to be one of the dumbest articles on Wikipedia. Complete crap from start to finish. Doctors without suspenders 04:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Way to go
Doctors, did you even read two of those tags you placed on this page (?):
"The neutrality of this article's title and/or subject matter is disputed. This is a dispute over the neutrality of viewpoints implied by the title, or the subject matter within its scope, rather than the actual facts stated. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page."
"This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims. Please help Wikipedia by adding references. See the talk page for details."
All you appear to have contributed to any solution are insults thrown at the article. And you didn't even spend much time on those insults.
Do you actually want to help make this better? Or are you merely out to show how good you at identifying articles that need work? ;P
--Antelope In Search Of Truth 21:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- He's right though, this article is seriously POV and needs very serious surgery. Alas, it didn't win the article improvement drive vote. Class conflict in the modern context emerged from the political conflict during the English Civil War (eg. the Diggers (True Levellers)), a while before Marx wrote anything. As I said above, the French Revolution is arguably history's most important example. This article needs proper historians' input, not Marxist dogma. Donnacha 23:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- Mr DwS should have been more constructive, but I agree with his tags. This article needs a lot of rewriting (by a trained historian, as Donnacha says) and reference cites. - Frankie 18:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Definitely with you guys; you'll note I didn't criticize his selection of tags. Just the fact that he didn't even appear to read them or didn't care what they actually said in the fine print. Because they direct the people submitting them to be specific.
--Antelope In Search Of Truth 19:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Class Warfare in the US
Another area that needs proper development - the heyday of real class warfare in the US was the period between the Haymarket Riots and the Aliens Act and the expulsion of the Russian anarchists - particularly the battles between the IWW and the Pinkertons. It could also so with some stuff about how class warfare tended to be taken over by organised crime. Donnacha 19:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry. I obviously offended people here, and for that I apologize. I shouldn't have been so brutish and unhelpful with my criticisms. Doctors without suspenders 17:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- Heh, clearly not many people here hang out on the Anarchism article ;) Now, the question is, where does one find an historian willing to put what's needed together. While I know the historical hotspots, it's not my area of expertise. Donnacha 19:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, it's inaccurate
The class breakdown, to the best of my knowledge, is also wrong. Marxism, for example, has more than two classes that can be broken into Bourgeoise and Proles. The Proles are important because for Marx they are a revolutionary class. There is also the the aristocracy (the Bourgeoise have been in class conflict for the aristocracy since they've existed, basically, and in this fight the bourgeoise are the heroes according to Marx), and the peasants (who are poor and not a revolutionary class) and the intelligensia at least. I don't know much about Marxism, and actually came to this article hoping to find a nice list of all the classes various people have seen existing.
- I think it is important to recognise a distinction between 'classes' of people in conflict with one another (bourgeoisie and aristocracy) and the idea of class conflict as a social phenomenon. What I mean is, the concept of class conflict has limited meaning and should not be applied casually to situations where perceived classes are in dispute.
- An example would be working people showing mass resentment to the unemployed. You could characterise each group as a 'class' in itself and noting the hostility, declare it a case of 'class conflict' or 'class war'.
- However this mis-applies the term. Class conflict is specifically the battle between the owners and controllers of wealth, and the rest of society. And I disagree with comments above, that it did not start with Marx. I believe he and Engels created the idea as a philosophical notion, and although 'conflict between classes' existed all along, 'class conflict' as a concept was brought into being by their work. 126.96.36.199 10:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
"It can be open, as with a business lockout aimed at destroying a labour union, or it can be hidden, as with an informal slowdown in production that protests low wages for an excessively fast or dangerous work process."
- This para has a bit of a left wing bias right? (use of words such as 'lockout', 'destroying', 'excessive' and 'dangerous'). I'm going to remove the "excessively fast or dangerous work process" bit from the end. I believe I'm right in saying ALL work slowdowns and wage protests are part of class war, not just the dangerous ones. The addition makes all wage protesters sound like heroes who work 22 hour days for 6c an hour. (I'm sure some of them are, but it's a bit of a wide generalisation to make, and Wikipedia's probably not the place to make it.) If anyone strongly disagrees, change it back. Shax (talk) 18:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Criticisms of the concept
The article should maybe allow room for historical criticisms of this concept. For instance, the idea of class conflict was strongly criticized in paragraph 19 on of the social encyclical Rerum Novarum.  ADM (talk) 13:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Is this page really necessary?
Missing the point completely
How can this article maintain the false mask of communism and completely avoid the idea of maintaining the status quo by warfare like tactics? Class warfare is about tension only to those who use the premise to implicate wrongdoing. They completely avoid the newest fad of innocent until investigated. Who are you to say what I can and can't do? Now a days your classified before you even have ur first birthday. I guess we all are born equal, some of us are just more equal then others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redhandedway (talk • contribs) 03:58, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
- If you'd like to supply reliable sources supporting your position we could improve the article on this basis. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:06, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
I find the communism sidebar to this article misleading. Class conflict is not isolated to communism or socialism. Class conflict is an acknowledged historical fact dating back to the feudal era when the bourgeoisie allied with monarchies against aristocrats to usurp the feudal system and establish the new monarchy era and the beginnings of capitalism.--R-41 (talk) 18:14, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you! I completely agree. There is also capitalistic class warefare/conflict from the upper class upon the proletariat or else the USA wouldn't be in the situation it is in today. The appearance of the "Communism Sidebar" in my educated opinion was added by capitalist interests to taboo or stigmatize the current popular, loosely associated Occupy Wall Street movement into the McCarthy-istic witch-hunt that exited during that administration. I'VE ADDED THE CAPITALISM DOMAIN SIDEBAR, and made it a part of the group on Capitalism. Those who might object to the appearance of the Capitalism sidebar will also argue for the removal of the Communism Sidebar.--XB70Valyrie (talk) 21:08, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay. Upon further investigation, the "Communism" sidebar was added by a "sock-puppet" account, as I suspected, which is now suspended by wikipedia. I'm REMOVING BOTH group domain sidebars. Here's the copy/paste of the edit by the sock-puppet.
- (cur | prev) 14:31, 13 September 2009 Zonglowe (talk | contribs) . . (9,240 bytes) (+36) . . (Info box) (undo)
Combining the Class Conflict and Class Struggle Article
I've been working on doing this. There's no need to have two articles about the same thing. I've been moving well cited passages from there (Class Struggle) to here (Class Conflict) I don't think Marx's "subclasses" should be included. It's really kinda pointless. When this migration is complete, I'm deleting the Class struggle article. What's more I'll be adding the words "Class Struggle" as a redirect to this article. --XB70Valyrie (talk) 06:06, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Source for how "Buffet and Soros stand to make very large financial gains as a result of anticipated government action"?
The claim that "However, both Buffet and Soros stand to make very large financial gains as a result of anticipated government action." with regards to the "Buffett Rule" or similar tax initiatives is not sourced. How exactly are they supposed to gain and where does this conclusion stem from?
Worst article I've ever read
|Wikipedia is not a discussion forum Fifelfoo (talk) 07:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
I have only trivial edits on this article, white space rearrangement and correction of some isbns. troll (internet) gives the definition. The last of those edits were more than 2 years ago and I don't plan to contribute further. However the title of the thread above alone attests to what the linked article describes. Lycurgus (talk) 17:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Where is Poland?
The Polish workers' struggles to fight for their rights and being killed on the street by Communist police just for being a Polish working-class activist, this is a very important thing. Please put it in the article! 188.8.131.52 (talk) 16:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)