|Claudio Monteverdi has been listed as a level-4 vital article in People. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as B-Class.|
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- 1 Date of Death
- 2 Question re Search
- 3 Kudos
- 4 'green mountain'?
- 5 Arianna
- 6 WPBio Template "needs infobox" parameter
- 7 Books of madrigals
- 8 Copy editing tag
- 9 Oh my, all work and no play...?
- 10 The portrait
- 11 Explanation for why I deleted the external link marshall.charles.googlepages.com - English translations and recordings from the Fourth Book of Monteverdi's Madrigals
- 12 Re-insert external link to Monteverdi's Fourth Book of madrigals?
- 13 Composer project review
- 14 Information in the first paragraph of "Life"
- 15 Beatus Vir? Dates at Cremona?
- 16 Good god, this is inadequate
- 17 What on earth does this language mean?
- 18 Assessment comment
Date of Death
We had Monteverdi's death date here as November 11, but Grove Concise and other reference works give it as November 29, and I can't find any hint that the date is in question, so I've changed it. (I wouldn't normally mention a change like this on talk, but we'd had it as Nov 11 for more than a year, so I thought I'd better.) --Camembert
- You are correct: every source I have lists his death date as Nov 29. He was taken ill on the 20th and died on the 29th "of malignant fever of 9 days duration" according to the obit published in the Registers of Public Health of Venice (from the biography by Denis Arnold, Monteverdi) -- Antandrus 04:48, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Question re Search
When you search for "Claudio Monteverdi" the index title for this page is "Claudio Monteverde" I dont know how to change that so just letting you people know.
- That's not what happens when I search: Claudio Monteverde comes up 5th in the list, Claudio Monteverdi first. The Monteverde is a redirect. Is it possible you misspelled it in the search box? Otherwise I don't see anything amiss. Antandrus (talk) 04:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Thats strange, earlier it was 100% relevancy. Either way, would it not be better to remove the redirect, and instead put up a "Did you mean Claudio Monteverdi"? So igorant people wont write his name wrong.
Kudos, all of you at work here. When all of Wikipedia's composer articles are this good, it will be a very good encyclopedia indeed. --Wetman 20:16, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- Amen. Srnec 18:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd remove the line where it says that Monteverdi means "green mountain" in Italian. First of all, it is not true, because 'Verdi' is a plural where 'Monte' is a singular, therefore 'Monteverdi' doesn't mean anything as it is. One should actually go and check the origins of this surname. Second, I don't see the relevance of it either way, unless one gives a reason for this remark in the rest of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Corpodibacco (talk • contribs) 10:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC).
I miss some information on the lost opera's of Monteverdi, most notably Arianna. One piece of it has survived "Lamento d'Arianna", which was during his lifetime one of his most popular pieces, surviving both in a monodic form and as a Madrigal. To call the Ulysses and Poppea the high points of his operatic works seems not quite correct, since we have incomplete knowledge of his works. As far as popularity goes the Arianne may have been one of his greatest successes. Perhaps someone can make a more detailed study of Arianna, and add it to the main text.
- Makes sense. I'll see what I can do. You are also welcome to add/rearrange the material as you see fit. Cheers, Mak (talk) 22:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
WPBio Template "needs infobox" parameter
Shortly after I added the fuller template with the "needs infobox" parameter set to "yes", it was changed to "no". I can guess at two possible reasons: 1) The article is considered to already have an infobox, which would be the portrait with his name? or 2) There is a consensus for the opera composer articles to not contain infoboxes? because they are considered to detract from the layout of the article? However, I've looked at Giuseppe Verdi and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, both of which, to my eyes :) have nice-looking infoboxes around the portrait. I believe the presence of an infobox is considered a standard for Biography articles; however, that consideration would be secondary to a consensus among a working group that maintains a certain set of articles, as, for example the Opera project group maintaining the composer articles. If I can understand the reason for the change, I can be better informed for future edits related to WPBio assessments. Thanks! Lini 04:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- I believe it is because a lot of us who work on composer articles neither like infoboxes, nor feel they contribute useful content to articles. They jam composers into bins like "genre" "instruments played" in a way which is wholly inappropriate for phenomena such as Renaissance and Baroque music composers. CD shops may do these things to organise their disks for sale, but encyclopedias do their readers a disservice to say that a composer's "genre" is "Baroque" -- to give one example. They may be more appropriate to some areas than others: perhaps popular musicians may benefit from them: but for someone in the Venetian or Ferrarese schools, a maestro de cappella with multiple roles and stylistic attributes, anything found in an infobox other than birth and death dates is just misleading. My opinion. Antandrus (talk) 04:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Antandrus, that sounds reasonable to me. I will forbear from including "Needs infobox=yes" in any WPBio tags on Composer articles in the future. Cheers, Lini 04:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- You're welcome. It's a discussion we still need to have somewhere more central (not sure where) ... for example it may be appropriate to put someone like Philip Glass in "genre minimalism" but I'm not sure where to draw the line. Like so many things on Wikipedia, not quite enough people have yet gotten together to figure it out, and with composers I think it's unusually messy. Best regards, Antandrus (talk) 04:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Books of madrigals
Any objections if I were to list out Monteverdi's books of madrigals, giving the Italian titles and years of publication?
Thanks, Lini 17:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- I've added them. Two things that I'd like feedback on - 1) they take up more space than I expected, because the titles are so long. So, do we want to do something different, after all, other than listing them all out in this article? 2) If we do keep them here, is the format I used OK? If it could be improved, could you direct me to a good example? (Also, I tried out adjusting the size of the image down just a little - I think that result was good.) Thanks in advance for your feedback! Lini 02:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'll assume that, for now, the added length to the article due to the list of madrigal books is OK. But, my feelings will not be hurt if someone decides at some future date, that something different needs to be done here. Thanks, Lini 10:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Copy editing tag
I cannot see any reason for the copy editing tag now. Can this be removed? Alacrid 11:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh my, all work and no play...?
Well, there was little "play" in M.'s life - although there was a plague - a very important one, because it took both of his children and drove him to become a priest... And while we're on the subject of children... they had a mother, too. His wife. Claudia.
The portrait has been convincingly shown to be of the actor Tristano Martinelli, not Monteverdi, though it has appears as cover art even on a biography of Monteverdi. --Wetman (talk) 10:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
For an explanation of my decision to delete this external link, please see this Pasiphae discussion pagewhich is just one example of the way Wikipedia is going.--Charlesmarshall65 (talk) 17:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Came across the website of translations of the Fourth Book that is under discussion in the previous section on this page (can't post the link 'cos it's been blacklisted). I think it would be a good resource to include on the Claudio_Monteverdi page, especially as each translation page includes the original Italian text and a recording.
In view of the fact the author of the webpages removed his site in April 2008 over a disagreement re editing policy, I've contacted him and asked if he would allow me to re-submit. He's OK with that.
Composer project review
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a decent B-class article; it would benefit from copyediting, and it needs more critical, popular, and historic views of his music. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 00:11, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Information in the first paragraph of "Life"
Is the sentence "The Maestro di capella’s job was to conduct important worship services in accordance with the liturgy books of the Catholic Church." really necessary? And if so, I think it needs revising as to the definition. Instead of the sentence, perhaps there could be a link to another entry "maestro di capella" defining it? At any rate, other articles referring to this term does not define it. At the very least, "M" should be lower case and the phrase should be italicized. I think the sentence should just be deleted.
By saying Monteverdi "learned about music by being part of the cathedral choir" takes away from the fact that he was directly tutored by Ingegneri. Ingegneri taught him counterpoint, viol, voice, and possibly organ. To say that he learned music by singing in a choir is really a stretch and really minimizes or ignores his excellent formal training.
Also, is that really what Shrade said, that he "also studied at the University of Cremona?" I haven't read the book, I have access to it, but we do need the page number for the citation. I haven't found any other reference to M. studying at a U. of Cremona. Studying at the cathedral WAS the university, I thought. Maybe not, but we need a good reference here. Groves makes no mention of it. Reeves makes no mention of it. Does Einstein? I'm going to the library right now and will check it out while I'm there.
- It was someone's class project for Union University, Jackson, Tennessee, in late 2008. No one has ever fixed it. Frankly I think it's ghastly and if you'd like to take a crack at a rewrite, please go ahead. Here's the complete diff of what the student did. I repaired most of the damage from the 2008 and 2009 projects, but evidently no one has gotten around to Monteverdi. Antandrus (talk) 20:13, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Beatus Vir? Dates at Cremona?
Could someone who knows about this work add something, please? And can someone add his dates as a member of the choir at Cremona?
Good god, this is inadequate
What on earth does this language mean?
"L'Orfeo was not the first opera, but it was the first mature opera, or one that realized all of its potential".
What is a "mature" opera? When it was composed and performed, was it spotted and considered a "mature" opera, and by whom? Is there any documentary evidence that this opera was considered "mature" at the time? When did opera become "mature"? This is glib vocabulary that conveys no information, only the impressions of the editor, formed from associations of things read here and there, and repeated mechanically.
And, even more elusive, what is an opera that "realizes all of its potential"? What was, and even still, what is the "potential" of an opera, or a "mature opera"? Who detected "all the potential" of opera? And for what reasons? What were the assumptions, conscious or implicit, in order to identify an opera as "realizing all its potential". Was Haendel able to "realize" the "potential" of opera? Or was it Mozart? What about Bellini, Donizetti, or Verdi? What about Wagner, or Puccini, or Alan Berg? Or even John Adams? Who was able ever to mark the moment when opera "realized its full potential"? Was any composer conscious that he was doing this momentous and memorable act of "realization"?
Opera, since it was invented in Florence at the end of the 16th c., has gone through incessant changes and innovations, with a mix of conventions, traditions, and creativity. Who can define "all of its potential"?
Again, glib writing that pretends to sound profound and sententious, but in fact conveys no information whatsoever. Nearly weasel writing, as so much of it is encountered in Wikipedia style, where the editor covers up his lack of real knowledge, just repeating something read somewhere, while remaining incapable of appreciating its real relevance. --ROO BOOKAROO (talk) 21:03, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- You are asking at the wrong place. This single sentence is cited to a book by John Whenham, published in 1986. You should probably ask Mr Whenham what he means. However, the word "mature" in the context almost certainly means "fully developed", in the sense that opera has come to be understood subsequent to Monteverdi's time. I would assume that Mr Whenham regards the few operas that preceded L'Orfeo to be less than fully developed, and this seems consistent with the opinions of other historians. To answer your second question, no, of course there is no evidence (documentary or otherwise) that people living at the very moment it was created recognized that it was exactly what opera would become over the next hundred years or so. How could there be? To answer your third question, according to Whenham, opera became mature with L'Orfeo. Wasn't that implicit in your first question? Now, for the rest, of course you have got a point but, once again, this appears to be Whenham's opinion. If there are contrary views from reliable sources, then naturally they ought to be introduced here. Keep in mind that there is a yawning gulf between weasel wording and citing an opinion expressed in a reliable source (and I can only assume that Whenham's book satisfies the requirements for one—I have not examined it myself). This certainly seems like an enormous storm brewed up in the teacup of one short sentence, attributed to a source which any reader can consult. Oh, yes: a Wikipedia editor who interprets the meaning of ambiguous wording in an otherwise reliable source is indulging in original research. Of course, reviewing that source may discover further statements that help to make the meaning clear, without having to rely on such opinions. Please feel free to carry out such an investigation.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:56, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section., and are posted here for posterity. Following
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|;Composers Project Assessment of Claudio Monteverdi: 2017-05-28
If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.
Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.
Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?
Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?
Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.
Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?
Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)
Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?
Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)
This article has a fairly good summary of the composer's life; there are a few items to note. It is unclear whether all of his children died when young, or only his daughter; the sentence should be rewritten for clarity. Also, the lead asserts he achieved fame in his lifetime, but there is little contemporary critical or popular appreciation of his work to justify this claim.
The section on his music provides what reads to me as a decent introduction to his music and the development of his style from the Renaissance to the Baroque. It is unclear to me that all of his works are listed; perhaps a separate "List of compositions by" article should be written. There is also (as mentioned above) no real contemporary critical or popular appreciation. There is also no notable historiography -- for example, can work of major Baroque/Classical/Romantic composers trace its influence to his innovations? What did 19th-century musicologists think of his work? 20th-century? His music has apparently been well-preserved, presumably due to his popularity -- if there were any such issues, they should be described.
The article is basically well-structured, but I find inconsistent citation placement annoying -- they should all be either before or after punctuation. The article would also benefit from copyediting to give it a slightly more encyclopedic voice.Article is B-class; the article clearly has potential. Magic♪piano 00:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Last edited at 00:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 11:52, 29 April 2016 (UTC)