I'll be reading and researching over the next few days, though will make comments and observations as I go along. I tend to directly do copy-editing and minor improvements, though content and potentially significant changes will be mentioned here. I am a slow reviewer, and this is a particularly complex, sensitive and important subject, so I will be inclined to take even more care; as such, speed is not going to be a primary consideration. I see the reviewer's role as collaborative and collegiate, so I welcome discussion regarding interpretation of the criteria. SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
A detailed and informative article. Clearly a lot of work has been done in building this article. There are some minor quibbles and queries to be addressed, such as the image and link in the Clitoral vs. vaginal stimulation and orgasm section, and also if that section could be/should be split out per WP:Summary style; however, essentially the article meets GA criteria bar the clarity of prose aspect, and the lead (which typically needs working on, especially after changes have occurred during a review). This is now mainly a copyediting job. I'll put on hold for the standard initial seven days, but am quite happy to extend that. And I'm quite happy to help out on the task. I suspect this is best done by two people at least, and it may involve a degree of negotiation and simple trial and error in order to find a decent balance between readability and professionalism. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Adjusted in line with your comments. We'll look into the Sexual stimulation section later. I certainly don't intend forcing any decision, but I think it's worth having a discussion about it. I haven't looked closely at it yet, and haven't got that far with my current reading (got distracted in real life this afternoon), but I do recall on previous pass throughs feeling that the section was important and detailed enough to warrant consideration for a stand alone. SilkTork ✔Tea time 17:26, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Those two sentences are not about the development of the clitoris - they are about the development of testes/ovaries. Very close, but not quite the same thing. Useful information for an article on development of the genitals as a whole, but somewhat distracting for an article just on the clitoris. I understand what you mean when you find something interesting in a source, and it's tempting to include it. I think it's perhaps the hardest job for editors to decide not just what to put in, but also what to leave out. And that's why it's useful to have an independent editor come in to do a GA review. Sometimes we want to cling on to material because we are fond of it, rather than because it is appropriate for the article. There needs to be a line drawn, and I think that when the material has left the clitoris and is dealing with another part of the body, then the line has been crossed. I'm going to have a go at reworking that section - see what you think. SilkTork ✔Tea time 11:57, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Not a GA issue, but the File:Clitoromegaly2.jpg image is a bit blurred and unclear. File:Большой клитор.jpg is clearer - any objections to using that instead? I know the existing image comes from a medical source, but it looks like a haemorrhoid! SilkTork ✔Tea time 19:32, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
- Passing comments
- Whether the clitoris is vestigial or serves a reproductive function has also been the subject of debate. - this sounds odd in the lead and it doesn't get along the flow. It is sort of break from a topic perhaps a move or merge will be good?
- Anatomy and structure - not sure but too much is covered under the section. I mean to say that is it possible to make independent sections? (especially from Sexual stimulation, findings and debates)
- Clitoral vs. vaginal stimulation and orgasm "vs." looks just little odd
- Hello, TheSpecialUser. Thank you for your comments. The vestigiality line was added by copyeditor Malleus (mentioned above). He felt that it wasn't already covered in the lead, while I did. See this discussion (which isn't very long) and these brief exchanges about it. I also suggested merging it with the preexisting sentence, but then it wasn't needed. Again, read that discussion and those briefs comments the two of us made with regard to it.
The vestigiality debate also isn't one of the primary debates among researchers, and that preexisting sentence is speaking of what the debates have primarily focused on.[Struck through this line because, although to a lesser extent in the modern era, vestigiality is one of the primary debates, which is why I thought it was covered by the original text and why I suggested Malleus's explicit line about it be merged with that preexisting sentence.] I'm trusting in Malleus having added that sentence and feeling that it flows well...because he's often regarded as the best copyeditor/article improver around. But the vestigiality line can obviously be merged with the preexisting sentence.
- When I started significantly expanding the article, I tried different format changes. Ultimately, the one you see now worked best in my mind because every subsection placed under the "Anatomy and structure" section is about its anatomy and structure; that of course includes the "Sexual stimulation, findings and debates" section. It just seemed odd to me to have the subsequent sections about the human clitoris separated from the "Anatomy and structure" section...when those sections are also about how the clitoris works and its structure. And none of the copyeditors, or two editors from WP:MED I know to have observed this article, have suggested that the article's structure may need changing. But I'll reexamine if I would be satisfied with a different structure.
- I'd considered the heading "Clitoral vs. vaginal stimulation and orgasm" a little odd-looking as well. But I went with it because, besides some other articles, including some WP:GAs and WP:FAs, using "vs." in their titles, using the headings "Clitoral and vaginal stimulation and orgasm" or "Clitoral and vaginal stimulation" didn't seem to work for me. Since the first one is a tad bit longer and has an extra "and," it didn't flow well to me (the same issue I had with the Clitoral and penile similarities and differences title I decided on after concluding that "differences" is better left included). And the second one wasn't accurate enough to me because it excludes "orgasm." Not to mention, the section actually is about clitoral stimulation/orgasm vs. vaginal stimulation/orgasm -- as in how they are compared and connected. But now I'm open to changing the heading to either of the latter two. The extra "and" doesn't bother me as much anymore. And "stimulation" can of course also include "orgasm"; we don't have to stress "orgasm" in the heading. Surely, (most) readers will know that they can find information on that there. Flyer22 (talk) 15:40, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
- I took care of your concerns with regard to the vestigiality line and the one heading, and of course removed the stray word I left behind. Flyer22 (talk) 16:45, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
- I changed the heading again, having remembered all of why I'd worded it the original way before. I may also change it at a later date, but this works for now. And despite what I stated in that edit summary, as I stated in this one, the section is obviously a bit about clitoral stimulation in general, but it's mostly about its comparison and hypothesized/debated connection to the vagina. And for that, mention of its full sexual stimulation capability and how many women need direct clitoral stimulation to orgasm had to go in this section instead of the previous section (which is titled Sexual arousal). And simply titling it Clitoral and vaginal stimulation, with or without "and orgasm" in the heading, makes it seem as though the section is simply about both types of stimulation in general or how to combine both. Flyer22 (talk) 17:34, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
- I took care of your concerns with regard to the vestigiality line and the one heading, and of course removed the stray word I left behind. Flyer22 (talk) 16:45, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. I've gone through two more heading changes, and ended up reverting to the first of those two. I've been thinking that it may be best to have "orgasm" in the heading so that readers will know from the table of contents that that's where most of the orgasm information is. But I'm not sure which title is the best for that. I've considered the following: Clitoral and vaginal stimulation and orgasm comparisons, Clitoral and vaginal stimulation/orgasm comparisons or Clitoral and vaginal stimulation/orgasmic comparisons, and Comparisons between clitoral and vaginal stimulation and orgasm (which was too long). I also considered removing the comma from "Clitoral and vaginal" so that it's "Clitoral, vaginal." But it's not like the Sexual arousal section isn't also about clitoral stimulation (I'm also debating whether or not to add the "Because the clitoris is homologous to the penis, it is the equivalent in its capacity to receive sexual stimulation." line to the Sexual arousal section). I would go with any of the first three titles, although I prefer not to include slashes in headings (the same goes for "vs."), but again, I don't want the heading to sound as though "the section is simply about both types of stimulation in general or how to combine both." And the word "or" doesn't work for titling this section. This is why the original heading was easier. But I'll likely stay away from "vs.," no matter what heading I eventually settle on. For now, I've settled on Clitoral and vaginal variabilities and comparisons, which is part of a heading I've used in the Orgasm article (I didn't want to use the exact heading from that article). Flyer22 (talk) 19:12, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
We're almost there. I'm just refreshing the review page to concentrate on the final two issues, and to do a final check on the criteria I've already passed. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:48, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
- Is it reasonably well written?
- Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
- Is it broad in its coverage?
- A. Major aspects:
- B. Focused:
- Is it neutral?
- Fair representation without bias:
- Is it stable?
- No edit wars, etc:
- Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
- Pass or Fail:
- I'm just pausing on the bias aspect. On reading through again I wondered if some of the "We are living in a male society" material has been over-stated? My general impression gathered throughout has been that the research conducted [in constructing this article] has been balanced and appropriate - reflecting accurately the concerns of the topic, both historically and currently, and doing so in a lucid manner in what has turned out to be a much more complex topic than first appears (and I already thought it was going to be complex!). I just wonder if views such as "Women have thus been defined sexually in terms of what pleases men" are appropriately balanced. While an intelligent reader can discern that some of the significant figures in studies of women's sexuality have been men, this appears not be as explicitly stated as the opinions that men have suppressed studies of women's sexuality. SilkTork ✔Tea time 18:13, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
- SilkTork, I don't see an overstatement on this matter. The research on male and female sexuality, especially with regard to the clitoris, has not been balanced and appropriate...and I'm not sure how you got that impression. The fact that it hasn't been balanced is supported in that section not only by sources such as Elisabeth Lloyd's "The Case Of The Female Orgasm: Bias In The Science Of Evolution", but also by the entire Existence, illustration accuracy and vernacular section. In that section, there is the following line at the beginning: "Although for more than 2,500 years there were scholars who considered the clitoris and the penis equivalent in all respects except their arrangement, the clitoris was also subject to 'discovery' and 'rediscovery' through empirical documentation by male scholars, due to 'the frequent omission or misrepresentation of the organ in historical and contemporary anatomical texts'." Sources backing it support it. But besides that, see the following source that is in the lead and is also in that section: "The Incidental Orgasm: The Presence of Clitoral Knowledge and the Absence of Orgasm for Women." The authors of it state: "Our results are discussed in light of gender inequality and a social construction of sexuality, endorsed by both men and women, that privileges men’s sexual pleasure over women’s, such that orgasm for women is pleasing, but ultimately incidental." The lead also consists of other sources that explicitly address the bias that has existed regarding the study/consideration of male sexuality/orgasm in comparison to female sexuality/orgasm. If the male and female studies/considerations were ever balanced, then Freud would not have been able to state what he did about female sexuality and orgasm and cause suffering for most women when it comes to their sex lives. It took Kinsey and others coming along to show that "vaginal orgasms" are not something that most women achieve, if any at all (considering that the vagina has relatively few nerve endings and research suggests that "vaginal orgasms" are clitoral orgasms). The Anne Koedt text you are taking issue with is simply a reflection of the debate that was going on at that time in the 1970s. It still goes on today, except that most male scholars nowadays agree that general ignorance with regard to female sexuality has been the case. Those lines, which are clearly attributed to Koedt, are, as shown in that section, essentially what Kinsey stated. It's all a part of the debate that has been going on for some time, and female sexuality and orgasm having gotten far less attention than male sexuality and orgasm is a well known fact. To try and downplay that would be a disservice to our readers. Female orgasm only gets a lot more attention than male orgasm today because of the clitoral and vaginal divide Freud created and people thinking that the female orgasm is significantly more complicated than the male orgasm. Flyer22 (talk) 19:12, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think the lack of information and study of the clitoris has been explored very well in the article, and the feminist view that this has been deliberate should be mentioned. But I wonder if that view is over-stated, or given too much space, so that it wanders into polemic. I'm not arguing that it is too much, merely raising the question. We do have the evidence of female circumcision to show some aspects of suppression of sexuality - though such mutilation is not fully understood, and has to be paralleled with male circumcision and penile subincision. Much of what humans have done to themselves and to each other is not fully understood, and sex and how to do it properly has also not been fully understood through much of history. Sex and sexuality is quite complex, and much of that is detailed or at least hinted at in this article. I'm just wondering if some of the best soundbites in the article are actually the least profound and are overshadowing the richer, more complex and less fully understood story. The Alfred Kinsey material a little higher up, which is covering the same material, is saying it in a more factual and informative manner.
- Anyway. I intend to have a closer look at the lead tomorrow, with the aim of getting this GAN closed! SilkTork ✔Tea time 20:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think the question of focus/amount of detail is still up for consideration. I think there is room for new spin off-articles which can then deal in greater depth on some aspects of the topic, such as "Comparisons of the clitoris and vagina" and "Perceptions of the clitoris"; however, this is a debatable area, and the sections are not grossly unbalancing the article, and are probably among the aspects that are deserving of greater detail, so I think a pass is appropriate. SilkTork ✔Tea time 19:14, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. You feel that the article has been balanced and appropriate. However, that section is a part of the article and it has mostly been like that since this GA review began. I view it as balanced and appropriate for the reasons I've gone over in the past and recently above. Balance can't be created where there isn't any, and there's no balance on male sexuality/orgasm vs. female sexuality/orgasm. Like I mentioned before, there's not much more I can state about the focus/amount of detail in that section...other than what I stated about it in the On hold section. And the feminist view is only covered by a few lines. Other than that, it's not a feminist view. As mentioned, Kinsey, for example, stated the same thing. So I don't understand how his statement is more factual than Anne Koedt's. But I went ahead and removed the redundancy about women being defined sexually in terms of what pleases men. As for significant figures in the studies of women's sexuality having been men, that is clear in the article, especially in the Existence, illustration accuracy and vernacular section; that section doesn't only mention men suppressing women's sexuality, but also men trying to elevate it. And it's not like just any man could suppress knowledge of female sexuality; it would take male scholars, especially significant ones, to do that. Flyer22 (talk) 20:22, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
- I think we might be conflating two different points here, and that's my fault for not being clearer. The focus/amount of detail comment is not related to my previous comment about bias. When I say that the question of amount of detail is still up for consideration, I meant that as part of ongoing development rather than for this GAN. Because the issue is borderline at the moment and very much challenged, it would be inappropriate to fail that aspect of GA criteria. However, I do feel that some areas within the article, such as "Comparisons of the clitoris and vagina" and "Perceptions of the clitoris", could be developed further - and, indeed, more attention could be paid to the impact of sexual politics on a popular understanding of the clitoris (and possibly on a scientific understanding - did I read that Helen O'Connell was influenced by those views?) - and this could be traced back through history. "Comparisons of the clitoris and vagina" would be able to bring together material on the clitoris, and the vagina, and sexual politics, and cultural history - a lot of things that would be inappropriate to deal with in depth for an article just on the clitoris.
- As regards my concern about possible feminist bias, it was just something that struck as I read through a final time, and felt it worth airing. If I had that prickle of concern, then others might. Anyway, I'm going to have a look at the lead now to see if I can now pass this article. SilkTork ✔Tea time 08:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
- Lead. I think that the spotted hyena's clitoris is interesting, but is far less important than that the clitoris is the female's most sensitive erogenous zone or social perceptions of the clitoris. SilkTork ✔Tea time 08:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
- Again, thank you for taking the time to review this article. And now for passing it. I've read just about all there is on "comparisons of the clitoris and vagina" and "perceptions of the clitoris," and it's summarized well in this article. Yes, a lot more could be added, but a lot more would also be redundant. A lot more is something to consider for WP:FA, shall this article ever go that route. And it's something that doesn't require a different article. It can just be divided into subsections of this article, and still not be a WP:SIZE issue; what is a size issue is often subjective anyway. This is an article just for the clitoris, and most of our articles on human anatomy covers humans first/mostly and then other animals. That is magnified with this topic because there is so little research on the clitoris in other animals. Heck, as we know, research on the human clitoris is still far behind where it could have already been.
- As always, I have to be honest about one change you made before listing this article as GA. I mostly don't like this alteration to the lead. In my opinion, the spotted hyena information should come right after we explain what the clitoris is and that urination "generally" does not take place through it, which should be "usually." We should explain what the clitoris is, and then go into the social topics surrounding it, just like we do in the article. Are you insisting on this change in the lead? Flyer22 (talk) 12:56, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not insisting on it. I think my change was more in the spirit of WP:Lead in which the more important details are given priority. It could be argued that the spotted hyena information doesn't properly belong in the lead at all. It provides additional, helpful and interesting information, but it is not central to an understanding of the issues surrounding the clitoris. I feel that because it is dealt with in the main body, that it does belong in the lead, but perhaps after the more important details. There are several quite detailed and important studies of the clitoris which do not mention the spotted hyena at all. Anyway - the GAN is now over, and it is expected that editing will continue, and that there will be some to and fro, as is the natural way of editing. I will be taking this off my watchlist, and moving on, as is my way. so you are free to alter the lead without complaint from me! SilkTork ✔Tea time 13:24, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
- The fact that the spotted hyena is likely the only species that can urinate through the clitoris (I say "likely" only because I'm still not sure if any other animal can do it; as mentioned before, I will need to read further into that), and that there is more information on the spotted hyena in the In other animals section than other animals, makes it worth mentioning in the lead. You also considered that mentioning a bit of detail on it in the lead is probably best, given its coverage in the In other animals section. And since we are going to mention other animals in the lead, mentioning the one with the most unique clitoris seems especially relevant. As for there being "several quite detailed and important studies of the clitoris which do not mention the spotted hyena at all," I'm not sure if you mean studies about the human clitoris or non-human clitoris. As mentioned above, there is little research on the clitoris of non-humans. One problem I had with your change is with regard to the "estimated to have more sensory nerve endings than any other part of the human body" line. Even with "human body" being there, it was no longer as clear that we are only talking about the clitoral nerve endings of the human female...since the spotted hyena information/other non-human animal information was placed after it. It makes more sense to me to get all of the specific non-human information out of the way before mentioning its development and in depth information about the human clitoris. I understand what you mean about the fact that the clitoris is the female's most sensitive erogenous zone and the primary source of female sexual pleasure being something worth mentioning early on, which is what it used to do before the lead was expanded. That could have been placed in the second paragraph with the development/design information, however, as I did with this edit. Also seen with that edit, I partially restored the first paragraph to the way you had it before...so that the spotted hyena information flows better (seems more relevant). Flyer22 (talk) 14:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
I know I have given Flyer22 a hard time in this GAN, but I feel the topic is very important, and it is one of our most viewed articles. I have been impressed with Flyer22's scholarship, and the way she has dealt so comprehensively with such a rich, complex and controversial subject. This is a very fine article, probably one of the best on the topic that is going to be readily available to most readers. It contains a wealth of knowledge, and ranges across biology, culture, sexual politics, and history, and tells us not just about this female organ, but also about ourselves in our reaction to and understanding of this organ. Read carefully, this is a profound article.
I feel that the lead can be developed a bit further, and it wouldn't hurt for another pair of eyes to run through the article for readability - it is important that as many people as possible are not just able to access this article, but are also able to understand it.
- Thank you. Very much appreciated. You did give me a somewhat challenging time, LOL, but your reasons for that were obviously valid (most of the time anyway, LOL). I chose you as a GA reviewer for reasons I've already stated in this review -- my "previous interaction with you on achieving GA status was pleasant. In addition to wanting what is best for Wikipedia articles, whether or not your idea of what is best contrasts others', you take the time to listen to and weigh others' comments/arguments." -- and you didn't let me down. So a well done to SilkTork as well. Flyer22 (talk) 13:08, 15 August 2012 (UTC)