Talk:Cloud Atlas (novel)
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Cloud Atlas (novel) article.|
|WikiProject Novels||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
|WikiProject Science Fiction||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
- 1 Sonmi "near future"?
- 2 Removed reference to the band by the same name.
- 3 Second halves
- 4 Second halves (cleared up)
- 5 Orison
- 6 Motifs v. Themes
- 7 Connections section looks like original research
- 8 Requested move 1
- 9 WP:PRIMARYTOPIC
- 10 Notice of requested move
- 11 David Mitchell on the BBC's World Book Club
- 12 Requested move 2
- 13 "Except one"
- 14 "Linking Themes"
- 15 Moved old comment from Cloud atlas
- 16 Half-Lives plot summary
- 17 Luisa Rey
- 18 Original research
- 19 Cleanup
Sonmi "near future"?
Is it made clear how much time has passed? It would have surely had to be a good few generations for Korea to be in a state where people (the union members) grow up not knowing who Buddhah is; that I know of no totalatarian state has ever wiped out knowledge of what went before that well. I imagined it about 100 years from now; which is fairly near as history goes, but I think "near future" might be misledaing A Geek Tragedy 16:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Removed reference to the band by the same name.
"Cloud Atlas is also the name of a very talented, but as of yet, unsigned band." Maybe if the "very talented" band known as Cloud Atlas had a page, there could be a disambiguation link to the page, but the fact that there is a band by the same name and the opinion that they are talented are off topic. Finesttiger 10:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"Except for the second half of "Letters from Zedelghem," each story ends with its protagonist finding the second half of this story, which is then printed after it." Actually, this is true also for "Letters from Zedelghem," -- Luisa Rey receives the packet of letters from Sixsmith's neice. And in "Letters," Frobisher finds the last part of Ewing's diary propping up a leg of his bed. Am I missing something? adamrice 20:27, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
"Except for the second half of "Letters from Zedelghem," each story ends with its protagonist finding the second half of this story, which is then printed after it."
I don't think this is true. Frobisher finds the second half of Ewing's Pacific journal propping up the leg of his bed in Zedelghem. In turn, Frobisher's second batch of letters are found by Louisa Reye. I don't, however, recall Ewing reading/watching the events of other chapters. Perhaps this should read "Except for 'The Pacific Journal of Adam Ewing'...", however, I don't know how accurate that is either. Can anyone recall a true exception to the rule of finding the second halves of stories? Rob 18:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Second halves (cleared up)
The two above comments questioning the comment regarding "Zedelghem" and it's continuation into "Pacific" are quite right. Quoting from the final letter in "Letters From Zedelghem", halfway down page 489:
"Along with this letter and the rest of the Ewing book, I've made arrangements..."
Frobisher has attached the rest of the Pacific Journal (as well as the Cloud Atlas Sextet score) to his final letter. It's very clear that the Zedelghem story is meant to be perceived from Sixsmith's point of view, i.e. the intended reader of the letters, so it follows that Sixsmith would read the rest of the journal after the letter. --AstarothCY 08:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Motifs v. Themes
I don't believe they are synonymous, so I'm reverting that edit. Motifs are frequent occurence of small and similar things, such as the tatoos or the word "Hydra," as well as incidental scenes, concepts, or ideas. Themes are, rather, a dominant subject area the work explores through its use of plot, character development, and structure. Thus they should be separated. If you have better reasons for combining them, by all means--I'd be interested to know. Perhaps the section should be better split up that way. Macman202 (talk) 16:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've deleted both sections for lack of sources. It looks like original research anyway.
Jim Dunning | talk 03:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Connections section looks like original research
I tagged the Connections with other works section for clean-up and citations. It's like one run-on sentence, but I hesitate to fix it till sources are provided for all the "connections" listed there (otherwise it's probably an editor's analysis. I'll start hunting around for some sources.
Jim Dunning | talk 17:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Requested move 1
Continuing the conversation from above; Mitchell's 2004 novel has won several awards and is described in the article as being "among the most-honored works of fiction in recent history". From what you've said in User:Una Smith/sandbox, the pictorial cloud atlases seem a mainly historical tool, mostly printed and used in the 19th century. I'd suggest that in the 21st century, for the average Wikipedia reader, the title of the popular novel will be more well-known; Google searches aren't overwhelming, but back that up to some extent (167,000 results for "cloud atlas", 73,000 for "cloud atlas -david mitchell"). --McGeddon (talk) 08:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- One cloud atlas, the International Cloud Atlas, has been in print for over 100 years, in multiple languages. There are dozens of cloud atlases on the web. Re the novel's notability, keep in mind Wikipedia:Recentism and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The majority of hits on Google Scholar and Google Books do not refer to the novel. Google Books "cloud atlas" 758 "cloud atlas" vs 754 "cloud atlas" -"mitchell" so only 4 hits on this novel. --Una Smith (talk) 16:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Notice of requested move
David Mitchell on the BBC's World Book Club
A chance to ask questions to improve this article! David Mitchell will be talking about Cloud Atlas on the BBC radio programme World Book Club. You can submit a question by emailing email@example.com or using the form on the World Book Club homepage. If you wish to be part of the audience for the programme, recording takes place at 15.15 on Tuesday May 4th, 2010 at Bush House, London. EdQuine (talk) 21:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Recording of David Mitchell talking about his book ‘Cloud Atlas’ will now take place tomorrow, Wednesday, 5th May, 2010 at 10:15am at BBC Broadcasting House, Portland Place, London, WIA 1AA. BBC Broadcasting House is about five minutes walk from Oxford Circus tube. If anyone is in London tomorrow morning and would like to come, could you email us to let us know as soon as possible please on firstname.lastname@example.org. Many thanks. EdQuine (talk) 17:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Requested move 2
I don't believe that any research bears up the notion that all of the characters "except one" are reincarnations of one another. Listening to the interview cited, Mitchell (who speaks with a degree of indecision at all times, thanks to a largely well-handled stammer) is frequently led and interrupted by the experienced presenter, Harriet Gilbert. He is talking about the comet birthmark when he is interrupted by Gilbert, who comments that she very much likes the character who he has just mentioned (Cavendish). Cavendish undoubtedly has the birthmark which is supposed to be the sign that the characters share a soul; I believe that the comment was leading up to the idea that all six characters have the birthmark and share a soul, but that Cavendish does not consider his birthmark to be "comet-shaped." His ex-lover had compared it to a turd. I would like to change the main text, but I wait on any suggestion that all six are not the same soul (which Mitchell seems to be suggesting everywhere else, including in the same interview). Bear in mind that I am researching this, but have not found any evidence that Ewing has the birthmark. If anybody is not a part of the reincarnation cycle, it is him, but Mitchell was definitely about to mention Cavendish in the quote given as support. Pippin4242 (talk) 18:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Kyle82374 (talk) 03:37, 22 September 2011 (UTC) I agree, the "except one" is a minorty opinion and has no backing evidence. I removed the "except one" from the article Kyle82374 (talk) 03:37, 22 September 2011 (UTC) kyle82374, Sept 21 2011
Of course, there's the question of that Luisa and Cavendish would have been alive at the same time, and the observation that Meronym has the mark in the sixth tale, rather than the protagnist Zachary. However, I tend to consider author statements as being 'word of God', so I'll just accept it here. --220.127.116.11 (talk) 02:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Kyle82374 (talk) 03:47, 22 September 2011 (UTC) The end of the second paragraph in the "Linking Themes" section reads, "This ascent and descent is both the actual and symbolic heart of the novel." The sentence is not referenced, and is a subjective of a statement from the opinion of the sentence's author. I am deleting the sentence.
Moved old comment from Cloud atlas
Right, we're missing the biggest point of all about this book and it's overall message. Why is this article so fixated on literary style? The constantly recurring them of "the will to power"is completely ignored even though it's the most critical aspect of understanding the book. Each story is a microcosm of power and its effects on each life contained in the story... the self-manifested, existential threats posed to a civilization that establishes an essentially predatory nature for itself and its institutions is necessarily a danger to itself and will, in the end, destroy itself. This is the writer's overarching message and it's the final flourish at the end when Ewing is recovering from near death in Hawaii that drives home the entire novel: there is hope because of the power of belief that shapes our actions and our behavior. If you believe the world is screwed up and going to hell, then that's probably what's going to happen. If enough people believe that it can and will get better and that people shouldn't submit to a power hierarchy of greed and lust for more and more control over people and resources, then it will get better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk • contribs) 07:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- You are entirely correct. I don't think this was deliberate so much as a need to expand the article beyond its current state. However, it must also be said, that the literary style is a vehicle for the theme. Viriditas (talk) 05:24, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Half-Lives plot summary
"Sixsmith expresses to Luisa, by telephone, his concern that the Seaboard HYDRA nuclear power plant isn't as safe as they advertise it to be" This isn't true. There is no indication that Sixsmith ever makes the phone call. In fact, it's implied that he didn't make the call. Luisa expresses suspicions that Sixsmith is concerned about safety, if he had told her it would be fact, not suspicion. Also, she only learns of the report when Isaac Sachs mentions that he helped work on it. Again, if Sixsmith had made the call he would have mentioned the report. Anyway, either confirming or denying the phone call is speculation as it's never described in the novel, so I've removed "by telephone" from that sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 16:16, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Some of the characters appear to be very loosely based on real people. Luisa Rey, for example, has a lot in common with Karen Silkwood. These kinds of similarities are covered by reliable sources and should be added. Viriditas (talk) 11:07, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Moreover, many of the stories have their authenticity challenged in the narrative that succeeds them. Robert Frobisher, for instance, feels that Ewing's purported journal is too neatly structured to be genuine, yet he wonders whether his own Cloud Atlas Sextet, a musical work structured exactly like the novel, is itself little more than a gimmick. "Half-Lives" is implied to be a fictional adventure novel submitted to Timothy Cavendish's literary agency. The number "six" is repeated throughout the novel. Some examples include: six interlocking stories; the music score Cloud Atlas is a "sextet with overlapping soloists" (not unlike the six stories); Sixsmith is the name of a main character, who is 66 years old; Eva is the result of "six centuries of breeding"; a police officer is shot six times in the back; Napier knew Luisa when she was six; Cavendish is in his sixty-sixth year, he needs 60,000 pounds to avoid being "beat up", his hospital window only opens six inches; Sonmi recites Six Catechisms, drives six-wheeler fords, lives on the university's sixth floor where she is left alone for six days, completes secondary school in six months, New Year's Day is the culmination of a holiday referred to as Sextet; a Prescient woman arrives in Zachry's sixteenth year and plans to stay for six months, he rolls a six'n'six when playing dice, etc.
This article is generally good but needs some clean up to abide by the WP:MOS for novels. The two main issues I see are: 1. The plot summary is far to long and contains snippets of interpretation. 2 The themes section contains no sources. The novel lends it self to endless speculation on the meaning and linkages between stories, but ALL analysis needs to be cited to a notable critic. Ashmoo (talk) 16:46, 29 June 2014 (UTC)