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Too much emphasis on narcissism [1-5-15][edit]

Patterns and characteristics
Penbat, I see that you reversed my edit and I wanted to see if we can sort out this section on narcissism together. I struggle with this section (here) and the earlier versions of this article (here) which disproportionately (length) characterize codependency in terms of narcissism. I suggest that this material is more appropriately suited for the NPD article. I've noticed that others have questioned this, too (here)

I think Cermak (here) provides the most clinically dependable characterization of the transactional dynamics at play. Enmeshment in relationships extends equally to the chemically dependent, personality disordered, other co ‐ dependent, and/or impulse ‐ disordered individuals. The article should reflect this balance.

I drafted this from your material (below). Can we work with something brief and to the point and similar to this?

  • Narcissist personality disorder. Codependents of narcissists as sometimes referred to as co-narcissists.[1] Narcissists, with their ability to get others to buy into their vision and help them make it a reality, seek and attract partners who will put others' need before their own.[2] Codependents can provide the narcissist with an obsequious, unthreatening audience - the perfect backdrop.[3] Among the reciprocally locking interactions of the pair, are the way the narcissist has an overpowering need to feel important and special, and the co-dependent has a strong need to help others feel that way.
  • Rappoport, Alan, PhD. Co-Narcissism: How We Adapt to Narcissistic Parents. The Therapist, 2005.
  • Simon Crompton, All About Me: Loving a Narcissist (London 2007) p. 157 and p. 235
  • Crompton, p. 31 (talk) 17:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

There seems to be no shortage of book here and academic journal here links between codependency and narcissism.--Penbat (talk) 19:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back. Are you good to go with my proposed edit/balance? Or do you have an alternative that is short and to the point (encyclopedic) that we an look at?
Also thanks for the thought provoking challenge. I'm not sure book count on Google books is the appropriate metric to resolve the issue of balance and priority. Cermak is the one who clinically profiled codependency across multiple conditions and got a "DSM style" definition through peer review in a major medial journal. This is very significant. There are also the 11 million copies in circulation of Woititz, Norwood, and Beattie's work - clearly the defining voices in the public. But even using a book count on Google books, relegates narcissism/codependency to the bottom of the list. While narcissism has a large codependent component, codependency is not largely about narcissism.
  • 15,300 citations for family + codependency,
  • 14,000 citations for alcoholism + codependency,
  • 5,600 citations for substance + codependency ,
  • 2,500 citations for ocd + codependency,
  • 2,320 citations for adhd + codependency/
  • 2,300 citations for borderline + codependency
  • 1,600 citations for narcissism + codependency (3.6% of total) (talk) 23:49, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Discussion relocated here from Penbat's talk page. (talk) 16:09, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

No response. Reverted "Patterns and characteristics" to 639841970 pending further discussion/compromise here. (talk) 15:56, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Removing content from Sam Vaknin[edit]

I am removing some of Sam Vaknin's content; he is not a credible source of information, as has been diagnosed as a psychopath, has earned his credentials from a diploma mill and has published his content for ulterior motives.

One of the links above mentions an interview with Bob Goodman, in which Vaknin stated: "The book [Malignant Self-Love] was never intended to help anyone. Above all, it was meant to attract attention and adulation (narcissistic supply) to its author, myself. Being in a guru-like status is the ultimate narcissistic experience."

I realize that not many people are familiar with psychopathy and might mistake deletions of this person's content for malice. I thoroughly recommend reading the book by dr. Robert Hare (an actual psychiatrist), entitled "The Mask of Sanity", as well as some articles on Vaknin, in order to ascertain the legitimacy of these deletions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Bro, who in the world is not familiar with psychopaths? If there's one rash generalization with no evidence to support it that our society can again and again come up with, it's that "psychopaths have no emotions." What a bunch of nonsense. Pop psychology thinks they understand stuff. They don't! Biologically, there is nothing lacking in the aptitude of their emotions. Sure, they may be off and backward, but they do have emotions. Charles35 (talk) 04:52, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

A cursory look at the links you provide does not give me grounds to believe that literature authored and co-authored by Sam Vaknin, who has his own article here, cannot be applied as reliable sources. If you believe these sources do not meet Wikipedia's guidelines you should request an evaluation at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. For now, I have again reverted your removal of information. __meco (talk) 14:09, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Deleting Vaknins material is outrageous:
  • User:Jacobisq obviously knows his psychology and he freely chooses to include Vaknin material, so his judgement is being questioned
  • Vaknin's material is frequently cited by academics in the field of narcissism etc. see: [1][2][3][4])[5])
  • I also happen to know that the following books all reference or cite Vaknin:
  • Lisa E. Scott, He's So Vain He Can't See You (2008) p. 8
  • Frank H. Columbus/Serge P. Shohow, Advances in Psychology Research, Vol 31 (2004) p. 5
  • Simon Crompton, All About Me: Loving a Narcissist (London 2007) p. 31
  • David Thomas Narcissism: Behind The Mask (2010) p. 28
  • Ronningstam, Elsa F. Identifying and Understanding the Narcissistic Personality (2005) (can't remember the page number)
  • Vaknin's views on narcissism are considered to be high profile enough to be featured in various articles in the quality press such as "Adrian Tempany When narcissism becomes pathological Financial Times September 4 2010" and in "Yvonne Roberts The monster in the mirror The Sunday Times September 16, 2007" where his opinions are included together with those of other luminaries.
  • Vaknin has a huge longstanding reputation as a journalist and editor for serious journals such as:
  • International Analyst Network
  • Global Politician Editors
  • Los Angeles Chronicle
  • He co-authored a book (Macedonian Economy on a Crossroads) with the later president of Macedonia Nikola Gruevski)
It defies any sort of common sense that there are countless academic books that cite or reference Vaknin yet it is considered inappropriate that Wikipedia can do so.--Penbat (talk) 14:16, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this discussion will continue further here (although I'm pretty sure it will continue or re-appear elsewhere), but if it does note that claims above (by User:Penbat) that the author in question is "frequently cited by academics in the field of narcissism" and that there are "countless academic books that cite or reference" him are at best disingenuous and that the suggestion above (by User:Meco) that this author's notability (as supported by having a Wikipedia page) qualifies his self-published writings for use on Wikipedia is false per WP:SPS. The few academic references made to the author are in regard to his first-person views as a person publicly diagnosed as having with Narcissistic personality disorder and not in regard to any of his theorizing about narcissism. That said, reviewing the list of other references for this article suggests that maybe the topic at hand (i.e., codependency) doesn't have a significant academic foundation or an easily identified cadre of experts, so I'm not too sure how WP:SPS can be met rigorously by anyone on this subject. Perhaps some other of you can answer that. --Soiregistered (talk) 19:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I wasn't vouching for Vaknin as an applicable reference here. I intervened against an IP user who did not appear to present convincing documentation to support the appropriateness of their taking Vaknin out of the article. I am very unfamiliar with this article. I'll leave further decisions to editors present. __meco (talk) 23:51, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

This material appears to be mostly derived from self-published sources. Unless I hear otherwise I'll remove the parts cited to Vaknin.
  • Inverted narcissists:
*Vaknin—"a self-help author who openly discusses his experiences as a person with narcissistic personality disorder"[4]—has identified a special sub-class of such codependents as "inverted narcissists."[5] "If you live with a narcissist, have a relationship with one, are married to one, work with a narcissist etc. – it does NOT mean that you are an inverted must CRAVE to be in a relationship with a narcissist."[6]
*Inverted or "covert" narcissists are people who are "intensely attuned to others' needs, but only in so far as it relates to [their] own need to perform the requisite sacrifice"[7]—an "inverted narcissist, who ensures that with compulsive care-giving, supplies of gratitude, love and attention will always be readily available ... [pseudo-]saintly."[8] Vaknin considered that "the inverted narcissist is a person who grew up enthralled by the narcissistic parent ... the child becomes a masterful provider of Narcissistic Supply, a perfect match to the parent's personality."[9]
*In everyday life, the inverted narcissist "demands anonymity ... uncomfortable with any attention being paid to him ... [with] praise that cannot be deflected."[10] Recovery means the ability to recognize the self-destructive elements in one's character structure, and to "develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself."[11]
  1. ^ Rappoport, Alan, PhD. Co-Narcissism: How We Adapt to Narcissistic Parents. The Therapist, 2005.
  2. ^ Simon Crompton, All About Me: Loving a Narcissist (London 2007) p. 157 and p. 235
  3. ^ Crompton, p. 31
  4. ^ Frank H. Columbus/Serge P. Shohow, Advances in Psychology Research, Vol 31 (2004) p. 5
  5. ^ Vaknin, Sam The Inverted Narcissist
  6. ^ Samuel Vaknin and Lidija Rangelovska, Malignant Self-Love: Narcissism Revisited (2003) p. 11
  7. ^ Vaknin/Rangelovska, p. 21
  8. ^ Wyn Bramley, Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered: How Couples Really Work(London 2008) pp. 31–2
  9. ^ Vaknin/Rangelovska, p. 27 and p. 17
  10. ^ Vaknin/Rangelovska, p. 20
  11. ^ Vaknin/Rangelovska, p. 26
Will Beback  talk  02:39, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

So far as I can tell, with the self-published material removed the section would be reduced to this:
  • an "inverted narcissist, who ensures that with compulsive care-giving, supplies of gratitude, love and attention will always be readily available ... [pseudo-]saintly."
    • Wyn Bramley, Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered: How Couples Really Work(London 2008) pp. 31–2
Perhaps we can add more from that source to round out the section.   Will Beback  talk 

I see that some Vaknin material was restored with the summary, "it is not SPS".[6] The citation in question is:
  • Samuel Vaknin and Lidija Rangelovska, Malignant Self-Love: Narcissism Revisited (2003)
It's my understanding that that book was published by Narcissus Publications, which is run by Rangelovska and Vaknin. Is that incorrect?   Will Beback  talk  22:25, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's self-published and really ought to be removed. The issue is both whether it's reliable, and whether it's notable enough for mention here, and we just don't have either of those issues confirmed. I mean no disrespect to the author; it's just a question of whether it fits our sourcing policies.

More importantly there's no need to use self-published sources in an article like this, because there are plenty of scholarly sources available. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 22:30, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

It's especially important to use the best available sources for articles on medical or psychotherapeutic topics. There are a number of peer-reviewed journals devoted to this general field, so we should focus on summarizing the points and views from those. Vaknin tends to be described, in this contest, as a "self-help" author rather than as a scholar.   Will Beback  talk  23:08, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure why the SPS material is still in the article. I've removed the citations. Any assertions for which we cannot obtain reliable sources should be deleted or replaced.   Will Beback  talk  00:39, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Codependency and Narcissism?[edit]

Very strange that narcissism doesnt even get a mention here as it is to narcissists that codependants are most attracted. Codependency and narcissism deserves at least a section. Sam Vaknin describes them as inverted narcissists, Alan Rappoport describes them as co-narcissists and Masterson describes them as closet narcissists. Some relevant links: --Penbat (talk) 20:34, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

COMMENT: Alright let's get real. Narcissists + codependents is pop psychology. It isn't some neat psychological mechanism that explains the fact that they end up together. It's simply because neither of them can do any better! This is such a popular phenomena because it applies to everyone who turns to psychology for answers: divorcees. All this narcissism nonsense and codependence stuff is always in the context of "getting out of a relationship with a narcissist". People need to grow up and realize that there's more to being a narcissist than the relationship they're in. It has to do with their entire life. Sure, romantic attachments are a part, but it's not the biggest thing. Charles35 (talk) 04:49, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
COMMENT: I don't believe the premise that codependency is about narcissists entrapping people into codependency is technically correct. The conventional view is that codependency is a natural pairing and it is typically defined from the perspective of the codependent enabler. The scope of enabling situations is far broader than Narcissists. The article states the term was originally coined by Alcoholic Anonymous and not all alcoholics are narcissists. Codependency is also seen with personality disorders, mood disorders, depression, and situational conditions like unemployment. So it is, for example, alcoholic and codependent enabler or borderline and codependent enabler. (talk) 19:17, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
COMMENT: I also don't believe that the central theme of codependency is about narcissists entrapping people into codependency. The section on Narcissists is very confusing. Maybe it can be boiled down into something simple. (talk)
COMMENT: Done (talk)

Question: how does this relate?[edit]

People who have experienced natural disasters, life threatening illness or accident, and personal and community tragedy have been found to perceive a benefit from the ordeal such as positive personality changes, changes in priorities and enhanced family relationships.[11] Caring for survivors serves a worthwhile ethic of empowerment - both for the caregiver and the survivors.

This doesn't seem to relate to the article at all. Either clear it up, or make it so it's clear how it relates to the article. Codependency isn't about care of infants, etc... it's about people who have a lack of healthy boundaries for themselves...--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 01:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Codependence and interdependence[edit]

I am of the opinion that co-dependence and interdependence are not compatible states of relating. Co-dependence fulfills needs implying dependency upon another, however, interdependence is our relational reality for 'no man is an island on their own' (? source. Written by: Novelsurfer (talk)
(Moved from the article into the talk page by Lova Falk talk 11:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC))

^This is totally correct. People use the word "interdependence" because they don't like the fact that in codependency, only the codependent is desperate and needy. Understandably, they try to make it seem to outsiders that the term describes a relationship of two people dependent on each other. In theory, this is somewhat correct, but the fact is that when we talk about codependency, we are talking about one person and their behavior, regardless of those around him or her. Codependency is seen in friendships, non-romantic family members, acquaintances, and even strangers. "Codependency" itself is a misnomer. Charles35 (talk) 04:57, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Requested move [Now Resolved][edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved.  Skomorokh, barbarian  10:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

CodependenceCodependency—Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelExe (talkcontribs) 23:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

  • Support, seems consistent with similar titles. Abductive (reasoning) 04:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Three dots [Now Resolved][edit]

There's an unhealthy amount of serieses of three dots in the paragraph titled "Development and Scope of Concept". It looks like they signify omitted parts of quoted text, but the text isnät in quotation marks. I don't habe time to fix it, so I'll just mention it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:30, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Conflicting information [Now Resolved][edit]

In a quick read of this article, I noticed two conflicting statements:

1. Historically, the concept of codependence "comes directly out of Alcoholics Anonymous, part of a dawning realization that the problem was not solely the addict, but also the family and friends who constitute a network for the alcoholic."[3] ^ a b Davis, Lennard J. (2008).Obsession: A History. London: University of Chicago Press. p. 178. ISBN 0-226-13782-1.

2. Although the term codependency originated outside of twelve-step groups, it is now a common concept in many of them.[18] ^ Collet, L (1990). "After the anger, what then? ACOA: Self-help or self-pity?". Family Therapy Networker 14 (1): 22–31.

These two statements as to the origin of the term are in conflict, since Alcoholics Anonymous _is_ a twelve-step program.

Otherwise, I thought the article, though neither stellar nor inspired, was acceptable and useful. While the anomaly I have pointed out does not reflect particularly well on the contributors, the article is probably about as good as it can get. Busterbarker2008 (talk) 18:36, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

You are quite right Busterbarker2008, but I don't really know how to fix this because both statements are sourced. Do you have an idea how to get rid of this conflict? Lova Falk talk 09:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
How to resolve the conflicting statements? Here are my thoughts. 1. More research; 2. If it was me and I had the time, I would contact the authors of both the publications, explain the dilemma, and ask if they had verifiable material with which they could amplify it; 3. You could make a snap judgement: publication (1) above is from the University of Chicago Press; publication (2) is from something called 'Family Therapy Networker' - - there is therefore a probability that publication 1 is correct and publication 2 is not. The simplest thing to do would be to delete the reference and claim from publication 2 on those grounds. However, definitively establishing which of the two publications is correct, or if neither are, could require a lot of research work. Personally, I think co-dependence is an important topic and well worth the work, but I can't myself do it anytime soon. Busterbarker2008 (talk) 22:55, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Lack of Quality, Suggest "stubbifying" [Now Resolved][edit]

This article lacks information, is poorly written, and does not adhere to Wikipedia's guidelines. I would at this juncture even question whether it is a valid entry (in its current state, that the topic is worthy is not disputed). I would suggest reducing the article to a stub with a brief definition, a few links, and then to await a re-write by a professional. Contributions/ (talk) 13:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Who qualifies as a professional, and how are you going to be sure that only a professional will be contributing? Do professionals ever disagree with one another? How do you know that professionals have not been contributing to the article all along, and having their work undone by anonymous editors pushing a point of view? I certainly agree with your quality concerns, but after watching the article for a few months and making a few faint efforts myself, I am not so optimistic about the value of starting over. There are contentious issues involved, and not just one contentious issue. Unless someone has a great deal of time to watch the article and gently handle all the anonymous editors who sweep through and add their own improvements (?), fixing it may be wasted work. Converting it to a stub might just invite more crazy edits, and would also set a bad example by encouraging the "bomb the village in order to save it" technique--not one of Wiki's better features. Why don't you instead start small, by repairing one section and then trying to ensure that it stays improved, keeping an eye on it for a while? If we all did that with one section, it might get to be a pretty good article. I admit that I had plans to do that with a "history of the concept" section, but I got distracted and now the fledgling little section is gone anyway.Rose bartram (talk) 20:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to restore some of the sentences for which there seems to have been a bit of consensus in the past. Unfortunately, getting them referenced properly is going to take a little longer.Rose bartram (talk) 18:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Maybe, but the staring lines is difficult to understand, what is the relation between the person who is alcoholic or drug addict and the person who is codependent?Dala11a (talk) 03:26, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
My position is that the two sentences you just added back in (The codependent is the person who . . . ) are too specific for an introduction. The best way to avoid edit wars is to keep the introductory section as general as possible, including just enough information to allow a reader to identify the type of concept being discussed. In the case of codependence, some editors have taken the most skeptical position and implied that the concept is silly pop psychology. That view, whether you like it or not, needs to be respected and allowed for. Please be realistic and consider putting specifics further along in the article where they can be balanced with other material, as necessary. Don't make the introductory paragraph a battleground, as it has been for much of the history of this article. Better to make the beginning a little vague, so people can keep reading of they want specifics.Rose bartram (talk) 13:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
A lot has been corrected since the 'stubifying' suggestion, I think the article should be left as is. The article should be kept because it now has lots of good references and the quality of the writing has also improved significantly. Plus 'codependency' is a widely- accepted concept in psychotherapy (has extremely wide acceptance, actually). So there is lots of legitimacy here, from all the added citations, the increase in writing quality and also the widespread (professional) use of the term. (talk) 04:24, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Introduction is Awful [Now resolved][edit]

I came to this page hoping to learn about co-dependency. The introduction is so poorly written in terms of both grammar and style that I just had to post this message. Whoever wrote that introduction, please think twice before you contribute to a popular subject.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
You are apparently assuming that one person wrote the introduction. Click "history" and you will see what actually happened. Multiple editors added and changed, and when others attempted to knit the sentences together in a way that made sense, someone else changed it again. As you note, the subject is popular. That makes it virtually impossible to prevent shabby editing. Fix it if you think you can (remember to sign your posts, and it helps if you register first), but it will probably not stay fixed.Rose bartram (talk) 12:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to second this. The intro is awful and the article contains virutally no information whatsoever. Normally wiki articles aren't very informative because they're poorly written (fine, I don't expect the contributors are communications/english majors, and there's still info to be had) but this article a) has very little information and b) is poorly written. The intro is basically, "Codependency is bad, mmkay?" I'd love to fix it but I don't know anything about codependency. (talk) 20:37, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree that the introduction is awful but the article that follows is even worse. It is so full of irrelevant psychobabble that is unintelligible. Co-Dependency is the process by which a loved-one assists or "enables" an alcoholic or addict in their substance abuse. The term is born out of Alcoholic Anonymous and has been massively co-opted in recent years by pop psychology, as evidenced here by some of the sources listed. The definition here is just plain false, and much of the content is misleading. Though they may appear to be, any sources that don't reflect its original meaning are not reliable sources. I hope that some well versed 12-steppers and experienced editors work TOGETHER to fix this mess.EyePhoenix (talk) 21:26, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Definition is false and misleading. "Codependency or Codependence is a tendency to behave in ways that negatively impact one's relationships and quality of life." is actually the definition of self destruction. Co-dependence is defined by two or more subjects depending on each other. This can be negative (if one values independence) or positive like in situations of tribes or colonies. The writers views comply with many others on the web, and almost seem to be motivated by dysfunctional relationships. Depending on dysfunctional parts is obviously negative. The view could deter people from any close future relationships or even create doubt in existing relationships by deception. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tencerjohn (talkcontribs) 20:22, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
It's been corrected, with citations. Following Wikipedia guidelines and adding citations for your additions is the way to avoid rabid and overzealous editing.

Consensual definition The current definition is the consensual definition reached 1989 in the scientific community Codependency is a pattern of painful dependence on compulsive behaviors and on approval from others in an attempt to find safety, self-worth, and identity. Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement. (talk)

Classic Vs Modern -- Codependency Defined [Now Resolved][edit]

I offer that the current definition of codependency is the classic, outdated one, with Alcoholics Anonymous as it's source. In it's place I offer the one coined by Robert Burney, in his book "Codependence, The Dance of Wounded Souls" as it's modern and more encompassing replacement: from Robert's website: I believe that Robert has hit the codependency definition nail squarely on it's head, though his conclusions on recovery from this pervasive disease are somewhat limited. Perhaps Robert would be kind enough to update this important topic? --Lostsoul001 (talk) 15:08, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The fundamental problem is that Robert Burney appears to be a nobody, a self-published self-described self-help guru who may or may not mean well, but no-one can tell, because he has never been monitored or measured or tested and is not subject to any regulatory body. And there is always going to be a suspicion that you are him, trying to sell more books. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 21:19, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

The current definition is the consensual definition reached 1989 in the scientific community andconsidered for the DSM. The behaviors section discusses the range of alternate definitions. Codependency is a pattern of painful dependence on compulsive behaviors and on approval from others in an attempt to find safety, self-worth, and identity. Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity responsibility, or under-achievement. ([[User talk:|t

Very strange comments by Ashley Pomeroy.... In his first paragraph he clearly shows he likes the work with very positive remarks that this writing by R.B on codependency hits the nail on the head.... (so thats good) But he then goes into some cynical dross about Roberts credentials and motives for selling books! Ridiculous!! I don't get it at all!! Since when does someone need to be a "somebody" to contribute something of value? Hopefully people will read Roberts book and form their own opinions by how it resonates with them...Pointless second paragraph Ashley and is indeed a symptom of your own codependency issues if a real deep analysis and inventory of Ashleys comments was taken by himself with full self awareness of how his own codependency operates and controls his own thinking process

Debate of 12-Step vs. Fix your self)[edit]

I'm very interested in the debate of (Codependency / 12-Step) vs. (Codependency Conspiracy / Fix yo self) as outlined by the article. Are there more resources for the latter? Could anyone chime in on current popular vs. growing methods of understanding codependence?

Codependency needs to reflect the reality - even over theory.[edit]

Melody Beattie collected information from 1976 onward, which adds to the Al-Anon literature. Neither is scholarly, but both are well-known.

When a person wishes to know about Codependency, it will be useful to have an article that presents what is known about the term, "a popular psychology" term, but a term with meaning.

There are support groups that use the 12-Step model that originates with the Alcoholics Anonymous program. Most support groups use an admixture of spiritual growth and personal assertiveness skills.

Finding no good explanation of Codependency is not helpful to the general public, who reads articles like these.

I will offer my definition of modern, larger-scope codependency:

A self-defeating lifestyle, marked by unsuccessful attempts to influence or control the behaviors of others. It is not unlike the manipulation seen in the popular personality disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder; but the psychiatric community has resisted making connections between the two ideas. Neither Codependency nor Borderline Personality Disorder are scientifically provable. Therefore, there is no reason to exclude Codependency from serious psychiatric discourse.

Codependency is an imbalance, and with careful attention to behaviour, it can be corrected. It is relational to the cognitive-behavioural therapies: the consumer must decide to follow a program of thought alteration (correction) to achieve a positive outcome.

If Codependency as an idea was taken a little more seriously, more people might be properly brought into short-term therapy to assist in focusing the treatment to achieve a better outcome.

- Sylvester Wager —Preceding unsigned comment added by Subwaysleuth (talkcontribs) 19:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't agree that Wiki articles can "reflect the reality, even over theory" of a concept like codependency. Wiki editors are not the arbiters of reality, and I'm afraid your suggestions for the article sound a lot like original research. Perhaps what really bothers you is that presenting the theory as "pop psych" makes it too easy for someone who ought to be coming to grips with his/her own dysfunctional behavior to instead reject the idea that anything is wrong. Part of the problem with this is the focus on just one type of potential reader, the would-be client you want to reach. Even if you are right about what that particular reader needs, paternalism is not a legitimate role for Wikipedia editors.
Why don't you find some references written by respected clinicians, and replace some of the undocumented part of the "symptoms" section with better material? That would add balance and utility to the article. Also, keep in mind that Wikipedia is not intended to save the world, only to inform. The part about Borderline Personality Disorder, by the way, strikes me as incorrect and I would hate to see it added to the article.Rose bartram (talk) 17:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
This article is so full of popular misinformation it is just sad. I can't find the actual definition ANYWHERE in this mess. The original source of the term is the literature from Alchololics Anonymous and Alanon. Most of the sources listed for this article are pop psychology books that have co-opted and altered it's original meaning. Co-dependency is not "two or more subjects depending on eachother". The 'dependency' that it refers to is a subject's dependency on alcohol, drugs or other compulsive behavior. The 'co' refers to another, who assists or enables a person in that dependency. The definition needs to be clarified by some RELIABLE sources and editors who UNDERSTAND what they're talking about. EyePhoenix (talk) 07:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
I agree with both Subwaysleuth and EyePhoenix. This article is lacking. I can't put my finger on exactly why, but it feels like it's walking on egg shells and avoiding something. It might be trying to achieve some sort of political correctness? I don't know. Maybe I could better identify the issue if I knew more about it (but general info seems to be lacking as well). I agree with Subwaysleuth - codependency is a psychiatric issue. Sure, it's not in the Holy Bible, but it definitely belongs there (not saying you should add this thought to the article; I'm just saying it for the sake of this convo). It is definitely a personality issue as well, mainly a part of borderline, dependent (obviously), and narcissistic. I'm not opposed to theory, but there should be more substance in this article. Like they've already said - it needs more definitions, or bold statements, etc. Charles35 (talk) 04:44, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
I think laying out the history will help. If you see how the term evolved it tends to clears the confusion. I took a stab at it. (talk)

Copyright problem [Now Resolved][edit]

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Symptoms and Behaviors [Now Resolved][edit]

Shouldn't this topic have Symptoms and Behaviors or similar section? ( (talk) 23:46, 9 September 2014 (UTC))

Added (talk)

You've got to be kidding![edit]

This article on codependency is incredibly inaccurate. Has anyone even noticed that the "criteria" listed for "codependency" are the same criteria listed in the Dianostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association....for BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISOER, NOT Codependency???

Like most people, I have fallen into the pattern of perusing Wikipedia for information on many topics. But if this is what is considered to be an acceptable submission, I will go elsewhere and work harder for accurate information. I have contributed to Wikipedia in the past, more.

P.S. I am a psychologist. This is not about theory. it is about accuracy. (talk) 01:06, 2 February 2015‎ (UTC)

The DSM 5 criteria for Borderline personality disorder and the criteria listed in this article are listed below for comparison.
Wiki-psyc (talk) 09:44, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Borderline Personality Disorder

  1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
  2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
  3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
  4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., substance abuse, binge eating, and reckless driving)
  5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
  6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
  7. Chronic feelings of emptiness
  8. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
  9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

Failed proposal for inclusion in DSM / Co-dependency

  1. Continued investment of self-esteem in the ability to control both oneself and others in the face of serious adverse consequences.
  2. Assumption of responsibility for meeting others' needs to the exclusion of acknowledging one's own.
  3. Anxiety and boundary distortions around intimacy and separation.
  4. Enmeshment in relationships with personality disordered, chemically dependent, other co ‐ dependent, and/or impulse ‐ disordered individuals.
  5. Three or more of the following:
    1. Excessive reliance on denial
    2. Constriction of emotions (with or without dramatic outbursts)
    3. Depression
    4. Hypervigilance
    5. Compulsions
    6. Anxiety
    7. Substance abuse
    8. Has been (or is) the victim of recurrent physical or sexual abuse
    9. Stress ‐ related medical illnesses
    10. Has remained in a primary relationship with an active substance abuser for at least two years without seeking outside help.

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