Talk:Confessing Church

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Untitled[edit]

This article needs cleaning up. There needs to be some scholarly reference and proper citation to have any credibility. --JECompton 07:15, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The description of the Confessing Church as 'crypto-Christian' only applies, if at all, to a tiny group. Norvo 03:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"Many of the leaders..." of the Confessing Church were sent to concentration camps? In fact, only a small minority of CC members, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Harald Poelchau, actively sought to overthrow the Nazi regime. The CC in general was not opposed to the regime as such, only to the Nazis' totalitarian approach to church politics. The CC in general can hardly be called a resistance movement. 87.169.50.73 00:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This article seems to start repeating itself halfway down Edmund1989


I would like to see this article longer and with more detail. By and large I have found the Protestant churches to be full of simony and greed and hypocrisy, and I have found Bonhoeffer to be a shining light in the darkness, a Protestant who actually is willing to forsake money and safety for truth, and by extension I have assumed the Confession Church to be likewise a symbol that not all Protestantism is mired in greed and fear. I would very much like to have this article be more historical and detailed, protraying the history however ugly or beautiful (most likely both, and mixed, and tawdry, as is so often the condition). I would also love to see a treatment of the parallels between this "divine test" in Nazi Germany, and the recent years in the US, when the US publicly embraced torture, and apparently the Protestant Churches in the US did not oppose it. The parallel would be not perfect by any means, and sufficiently controversial that I'm sure all the rabid nuts would try to derail any discussion, so I suspect wikipedia is too hostage to the US right-wing for such a treatment in this day, but perhaps one day, with more time and more capability for objectivity, I may see such a treatment here. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hassid (talkcontribs) 02:12, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea for a magazine article, but not really appropriate for an encyclopedia article. If you think the article needs to be improved, then the best way to make sure that happens is to improve it yourself. Josh (talk) 20:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Protestant Reich Church article[edit]

In my reorganization of the Protestant Reich Church aritcle, I removed alot of material as it was all about the Confessing Church. Some of it might fit well with this article. Ltwin (talk) 10:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Schismatic?[edit]

I have read a bit on the subject (Donald Bloesch's Christian Foundations Series: The Church) and I think it is incorrect to refer to the confessing church as schismatic in the lead sentence. Schismatic refers to splitting away or separating into a new group. I was surprised to see this term used. It should be changed. Sectarian would be incorrect too. ...was a movement within the Protestant Churches would be more accurate and less open to misunderstanding. DMSBel (talk) 03:45, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

NPOV[edit]

This article desperately needs a POV header. Not once, not twice, but at least three times we have mentioned that the Confessing Church did not oppose the Nazi policy regarding the Jews. Not only is this factually incomplete, it's overkill. Someone has an axe to grind and it shows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.187.129.100 (talk) 09:22, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree with the above. Someone's afraid of the idea of Christians who did the right thing (or at least something like that).
75.141.114.24 (talk) 05:15, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
It could equally well be critics of Germany who want to show how little resistance was put up by a complicit society. Or general cynics who want to tear down hero stories. Or conscientious Germans.
But I agree, the repetition of this theme in this way gives the article an amateurish feel. Is there some popular conception that the bekennende Kirche was extremely heroic? In other words, what are these words fighting against? Ultimately, there will be some consensus, I suppose, about how very good or only partly good the movement was. It should be soberly reported on. Instead, we get working notes. 84.226.185.221 (talk) 09:03, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Kirchenkampf[edit]

In Doris Bergen's doctoral thesis, later compressed in the book "Twisted Cross: The German Christian Movement in the Third Reich" (1996, The University of North Carolina Press), she discusses the nature of the Kirchenkampf in 1933. Rather than a rally against public national socialistic policies, it was a fight for control over the Protestant church, and its shape, she argues (p. 12).

Though divisions within German protestantism were blurred in 1933, some traits can be identified. The German Christians fought for a unity of Volk, Kirche and Staat. Thus, their goal was a state church. An opposing network of Protestants were organised as the Confessing Church. They stated that "church must remain church", thus the church had to be independent from the state.

This oversight shows that there was no coherent church. It is therefore not thinkable that the Confessing Church could have had such a role. This is, however, suggested by the Wikipedia article, that deals with the German Christians as an anomali, within a coherent German protestant movement (= the Confessing Church). The portrayal of the Confessing Church as if it was synonymous with the whole of the German Protestant civil society, forcefully neglects the lack of unity that characterised it.

The article takes side in the Kirchenkampf, continues to misportray it, and further adds to the public perception that it had to do with public policies at the Third reich's inception. There was no coherent German Protestant civil society. Suggestions saying that there was, risk exaggerating the Confessing Church's strength and commitment in opposing the Third Reich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.191.208.132 (talk) 12:50, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

These points are well discussed in Gerlach which I have added to the references. When I have some time, I will try clean this up a bit. Joel Mc (talk) 20:40, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Added an even more recent refernce: Wiese&Betts. Joel Mc (talk) 08:01, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

A mess[edit]

This article is a disorganized mess!

I'm sure that no movement lived up to the nice thoughts of people who would like to see hope somewhere, but putting aside the emotion... In place of this repetitive, rambling, sad set of notes, can't we have a proper encyclopedia article?

84.226.185.221 (talk) 08:42, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

When did the CC cease to exist?[edit]

Does it make sense to ask when the CC ceased to exist? And if yes, then should the article say something about the end of the CC? I asked this question on the talk page of the German article nearly a year ago, but obtained no response. GroupCohomologist (talk) 10:13, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

A quick answer is: yes. The CC ceased to exist in 1945. "An additional noteworthy postwar leadership body was the reform-oriented council of brethren (Bruderrat), which had been the leadership council of the Confessing Church from 1934 to 1945. Although the Confessing Church officially disbanded after the war, the council of brethren continued to exist as an alternative voice within the EKD."[1]----Joel Mc (talk) 11:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
The organization may have been disbanded but the people were left to live with the consequences for many years. I met a few in the 60's who told my parents and me that they were usually still hiding their identity from Germans around them for fear of being branded traitors and the like. Jcwf (talk) 02:21, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

What formed the Confessing Church??[edit]

The article suddenly starts referring to the Confessing Church without saying what bodies formed it. Nor does it explain 'the confessional freedom of churches'. Basically, this article only makes sense to someone who already knows what the Confessing Church is! It does not explain what joined up to become the Confessing Church, its hierarchy, its leadership, what its name means, why it got its name and who named it, and so on. It starts referring to it without every properly explaining what it is. SandJ-on-WP (talk) 17:50, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

  1. ^ Hockenos, Matthew (2004). A church divided German Protestants confront the Nazi past. Bloomington: Indiana University Press. p. 7. ISBN 0-253-34448-4.