Talk:Content-control software: Difference between revisions

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::(What you mean is that "filtering" is not confusing, but rather non-neutral -- in the same fashion that censorware, I believe, is. [[User:Sdedeo|Sdedeo]] <small>([[User:Sdedeo/advice|tips]])</small> 21:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC))
 
::(What you mean is that "filtering" is not confusing, but rather non-neutral -- in the same fashion that censorware, I believe, is. [[User:Sdedeo|Sdedeo]] <small>([[User:Sdedeo/advice|tips]])</small> 21:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC))
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::: No, I have two different, though related arguments: 1) "filtering" is non-neutral. 2) It is non-neutral in a confusing way.
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:::The censorware companies themselves use this term extensively, so I'd say since they want the word associated with them, that's strong evidence of non-neutral implications. -- [[User:Seth Finkelstein|Seth Finkelstein]] 22:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
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What does, say, the New York Times use to refer to these programs? Or, let's say, Wired? These are generally neutral places to look (if anything, slanted anti-censorware.) [[User:Sdedeo|Sdedeo]] <small>([[User:Sdedeo/advice|tips]])</small> 21:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 
What does, say, the New York Times use to refer to these programs? Or, let's say, Wired? These are generally neutral places to look (if anything, slanted anti-censorware.) [[User:Sdedeo|Sdedeo]] <small>([[User:Sdedeo/advice|tips]])</small> 21:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
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[[User:Sdedeo|Sdedeo]] <small>([[User:Sdedeo/advice|tips]])</small> 21:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 
[[User:Sdedeo|Sdedeo]] <small>([[User:Sdedeo/advice|tips]])</small> 21:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
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:: Yup, that's me. Guilty :-). But I didn't write the article :-)
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:: In my view, over the years, censorware proponents have waged a PR campaign to say that use of the word "censorware" is partisan, while "filter" is proper. They've been very successful at it. However, that does not make them right - or NPOV, In fact, I think that campaign is evidence of the opposite. Since one of the major censorware programs is called "SmartFILTER" (my caps), that shows it's hardly a *neutral* term.
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::Regarding court documents, in fact, I got deposed on this very point in expert witness testimony, with a government lawyer questioning me on the linguistic implications of my terminology, trying to cast doubt on my testimony. But again, I'd say that shows the PR campaign, and my reply to the lawyer was that I felt I was being accurate.
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::I hardly deny that words have connotations. I'm saying, given a choice, pick the word that leads to less confusion in discussion. When we talk of "censorware", it's obvious what it means. "Filtering" has too many meanings. -- [[User:Seth Finkelstein|Seth Finkelstein]] 22:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 22:55, 8 April 2006

The man (8e6) is holding me down

Someone who's a beast give me some ideas to get around their filtering system.

Thanks boo.

Won't somebody think of the children?

Would it be possible to add a rating system to Wikipedia. It has been mentioned before that Wikipedia is used in schools etc. There are a number of pages that may not be suitable for school use. Maybe a checkbox on the edit form could be used to generate a SurfSafe header (http://www.safesurf.com/ssplan.htm) or other PICS header. I would suggest keeping it simple and having just "suitable for all" or "suitable for adults". Some schools can only see suitably rated pages. I know that some people would say that children should be able to see all facts, but in practice a school is likely to have complaints from a number of parents if it turns out that the kids are looking up Handballing, Autoeroticism etc. -- Chris Q 06:13 Oct 16, 2002 (UTC)

<sarcasm>Oh oh, can we have special markup to save the children from dangerous political ideas and information about crime and violence, too?</sarcasm> --Brion 06:37 Oct 16, 2002 (UTC)
Hm. That sounds like both a feature request and a policy change. A much better venue for that is the Wikipedia mailing list. Any mention of SufeSafe or its ilk gives me the creeps and I'm not sure we should feed those demons (and if we get black listed by them then shame on them, not us). This is a Free as in Speech webstie. But go ahead and give it a whirl on the list. ---mav
This issue was a very divisive one at the Open Directory Project, where adult content was eventually cordoned off into a separate hierarchy that was labeled with PICS tags. This compromise did not please anyone, as coverage of legitimate topics was obscured from view and unabashedly blue content was still readily available to children.
No doubt there will be Wikipedia licensees who will filter and censor Wikipedia content to suit their needs and wants. However, our focus should be on generating Wikipedia content and making it freely available. -- NetEsq 07:49 Oct 16, 2002 (UTC)
OK, I can see that the concensus is against this. I guess NetEsq is right, anyone that wants to copy a subset of Wikipedia for open use will probably do so. -- Chris Q 08:07 Oct 16, 2002 (UTC)
I think that thay ar all educational so you shud be able to look up all uv them at the scool. This is a ensiclopedia -- 24.207.69.51 21:45, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
No lets not have this feature. Wikipedia wont be accomplishing it's mission of being a free encyclopedia if it starts censoring itself. Sure some things shouldn't be looked up at school but I don't trust censorware programs. --Arm
Yeah, you can't burn it since it's not a book, so censoring it is almost as good, right? Good idea. Brilliant. I think it's been tried before. Xinoph 19:30, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Content filtering software products

I'm planning on removing the section Content filtering software products. Any objections? Josh Parris 02:56, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Question: Why? --Aurochs
The list of products is transient and non encyclopedic. Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files. Surely there is a list of Content filtering software products already kicking around on the web somewhere. We could link to that instead. Josh Parris 01:32, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
*sigh* I'm opposed, but I have no argument to counter yours... If you can find a list, I'll change my mind. --Aurochs, May 30 2005
I can't find a list. Which I find very surprising, and indicative that I've done the search wrong. So, I'm holding off. Josh Parris 07:43, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am removing the long list of product links to censorware companies. Please note that wikipedia is not a web directory. External links sections should provide links to a limited list of pages that further discuss, or provide references for, the issues in the text. Including stacks of links to Norton Utilities, and other commerical, shareware and freeware products is not wikipedia's job. When we discuss automobiles, we do not then go on to include a long list of direct links to the pages of autbomobile companies. Etc, etc. Sdedeo 04:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Err, okay, but why didn't you put that in the section above? --Aurochs

Categories

Does any wikipedia guru know how to create a "category"? That would be the best way to organize all the wikipedia articles on the various software; instead of compiling an incomplete list within the article itself, we could just link to the category page. Sdedeo 02:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Start it like you would start a normal page, but put it in the Category namespace. MediaWiki will take care of the rest. --Aurochs
What about products with nonexisting article? There is a lingering class of existing objects that should be at least mentioned by name. When listed, whether in this article or in a separate "List of...", these appear as a red link. I, for one, welcomed that list. It can be worked around by creating a short stub for each of them, but then they will get listed as AfDs and we're back at square 1. --Shaddack 19:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Shaddack -- please restore the list if you want. I felt it was kind of silly: it's an invitation for everyone to list every single censorware in existence. In the same way we don't list all the titles of every mystery book ever published, we probably shouldn't do it for censorware software? My feeling is that unless a particular piece of software is famous enough to be created without a tantalizing redlink, it shouldn't be created at all. Anyway, YMMV. Yours, Sdedeo 21:59, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Strong anti-censorware bias

Is the opening phrase 'The term "censorware" is valuative [sic]" thereby intended to justify what follows as a strongly anti-censorware article? Is this within the limits of objectivity which Wikipedia strives for? (Note that "internet filter" redirects immediately to "censorware")

Any mention of a positive view on censorware is immediately followed with a counter-argument, whereas anti-censorware views are left to stand. The picture showing blockage of whitehouse.com by one filter seems designed to show that censorware is ridiculous. The section on bypassing filters seems inappropriate to include in such an article, and perhaps should go elsewhere. The final section "Opinions for and Against Censorware" seems like a joke, given that the whole article seems to be an argument against censorware, and the inclusion of one link to a few articles showing the pro-censorware point of view seems like a scant offering.

I'm not some kind of pro-censorware activist or software manufacturer. I'm just an average guy who looked up "internet filtering" for some *information* and instead what I got was *indoctrination*.

The usual line of "You don't like it? Then edit it!" isn't much encouragement, since it seems the whole article (and whoever's committed to maintaining it) is entirely and adamantly supportive of only one view of the subject.

Really? I haven't done much on the article myself (a link or sentence tweak, one of which got reverted). But maybe in terms of where one stands depends on where one sits, my perceptions are certainly affected by my own views. Don't you think sentences such as (again, not mine) "Choosing an internet service provider (ISP) that blocks objectionable material before it enters the home over software run on their own computer can help parents who worry about their children viewing objectionable content." are fair to the pro-censorware viewpoint?
I would strongly argue that "censorware" is the correct term and base article, since "filter" can mean anti-spam program or mail-sorting program. So "censorware" is more precise (which helps the goal of an encyclopedia). Blocking whitehouse.COM is not ridiculous, it's not whitehouse.GOV. It used to be a porn site (whitehouse.COM, not whitehouse.GOV). So I don't think there was untoward intent in that screenshot - Seth Finkelstein 12:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

As always, fix what you feel is wrong! I haven't looked at this for awhile, but please do your best to soften or remove "editorial" content -- I don't see why that's an impossible task. Looking over the article briefly, it does cover criticisms more than "positives", but the fact is that there are numerous downsides to using a piece of software to decide what people should see -- a task more suited to another human being -- and the article reports them: false positives, questions of censorship, restrictions regardless of age or maturity, first amendment questions, court challenges, etc. etc.. Sdedeo (tips) 14:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Page title move

Following up on the anon -- it is possible we could move the page to "content-filtering software"? The redirect from "censorware" would still remain, but I am more and more uncomfortable with using the term, which does have a POV tilt in as much as it describes something as censorship when it is really not technically censorship in all cases. I don't know -- any thoughts? Sdedeo (tips) 16:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Per above, I would claim that "censorware" is *accurate*, and "filtering" is not. Indeed, I would say "filtering" also has a POV tilt - there's uncounted times I've heard a little song-and-dance about "We all need *filters*, *filters* are necessary ...".
I would most strongly, emphatically, dispute the idea that "filtering" is NPOV.
Between two such choices, I assert one should take the less confusing one. Regarding censorSHIP, I'd say "censorware" is a derived coinage, in the same way we talk about "a taxing task" (even though that doesn't involve paying money to the government), or "policing the language" (even though that doesn't involved men in blue uniforms from the government). -- Seth Finkelstein 22:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

"Censorware" I do think is problematic. For example, we do not refer to the MPAA ratings as "censorship" -- but one of the uses of these kinds of software is to achieve similar things. "Tax" is a very old word, lost in the midsts of time, but "censorware" is a very recent coinage of "censor"+"ware" used only by people who criticize it -- while the IRS does indeed use the word "tax"!

Can you come up with something that is neutral? "Content filtering" seems pretty neutral IMO, but perhaps there is another term. I mean, it's pretty clear that only one side uses "censorware" as a term, and that makes it as problematic as "internet safety tool" or whatever the companies are calling it. Sdedeo (tips) 02:22, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but my point is that "taxing" and "policing" are used in metaphorical, non-governmental contexts. Note for a close example, that spyware sure isn't the term used by the makers of those programs either. Again, "filtering" is confusing, because while I've never heard "We all need censorware", there's many times I've seen someone say "We need filtering because ...". So it's most assuredly not a neutral term. -- Seth Finkelstein 18:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
(What you mean is that "filtering" is not confusing, but rather non-neutral -- in the same fashion that censorware, I believe, is. Sdedeo (tips) 21:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC))
No, I have two different, though related arguments: 1) "filtering" is non-neutral. 2) It is non-neutral in a confusing way.
The censorware companies themselves use this term extensively, so I'd say since they want the word associated with them, that's strong evidence of non-neutral implications. -- Seth Finkelstein 22:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


What does, say, the New York Times use to refer to these programs? Or, let's say, Wired? These are generally neutral places to look (if anything, slanted anti-censorware.) Sdedeo (tips) 21:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm -- OK, the New York Times uses the word "filter":

This year one of the three winners was Seth Finkelstein, an activist who decrypts filtering programs, the software used by private companies, libraries and schools to block out undesirable sites. [1]

Hey, wait, that's you!

A plaintiff in a case uses the term "filtering":

Library Grapples With Internet Freedom (Oct. 15) mentioned the Loudoun County library filtering litigation. That case, in which I am a plaintiff, argues that filtering software is overbroad, blocks numerous innocent and socially valuable sites and cannot pass the strict tests imposed by the First Amendment. [2]

Nearly all the opponents use the term "censorware".

I have a strong feeling that court documents involving these things will use the term "filtering". My feeling is that WP:NPOV means we should be using something similar to "content-filtering", which I believe is the most neutral description.

Sdedeo (tips) 21:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Yup, that's me. Guilty :-). But I didn't write the article :-)
In my view, over the years, censorware proponents have waged a PR campaign to say that use of the word "censorware" is partisan, while "filter" is proper. They've been very successful at it. However, that does not make them right - or NPOV, In fact, I think that campaign is evidence of the opposite. Since one of the major censorware programs is called "SmartFILTER" (my caps), that shows it's hardly a *neutral* term.
Regarding court documents, in fact, I got deposed on this very point in expert witness testimony, with a government lawyer questioning me on the linguistic implications of my terminology, trying to cast doubt on my testimony. But again, I'd say that shows the PR campaign, and my reply to the lawyer was that I felt I was being accurate.
I hardly deny that words have connotations. I'm saying, given a choice, pick the word that leads to less confusion in discussion. When we talk of "censorware", it's obvious what it means. "Filtering" has too many meanings. -- Seth Finkelstein 22:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)