Talk:Cornish language

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Alison Treganning[edit]

Alison Treganning is thought, by some, to be the last fluent speaker of the Cornish Language. It is said that she died in 1906, forming controversy over the previous assumption that the Cornish language had been dead since the time of Dolly Pentreath (d. 1777). // It was long believed in England that the Cornish language had died in the 18th century with Dolly Pentreath, but by 1906 the language's revival had already been going for a few years.[1] (compiled 2005-2009) // References

  1. ^ "Cornish Language Anniversary". Retrieved 2009-05-25. 
This was an article for most of 2009 but is inadequate without better references. This refers to the subject [1] : if this was promoted as an anniversary articles must have been published in newspapers within Cornwall which may reveal the evidence if any. See also Talk:Alison Treganning--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 20:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Alison Treganning. I looked hard for evidence of her. As you'll see, I found no reliable sources.Moonraker (talk) 20:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I've left a comment at that talk page, arguing that she could very well be a hoax, despite an ostensible piece of evidence to the contrary mentioned there. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
OK, I just saw that the article linked above is dated August 2005 and actually mentions Alison Treganning in passing, together with Dolly Pentreath; but puzzingly, the writer simply seems to assume that the reader be already familiar with the name, since he does not explain her significance explicitly, nor mention her presumed year of death. This is all very strange. If she really lived so recently, and was a speaker of Cornish, how come there are no other mentions of her anywhere else? At least Henry Jenner should have known of her and mentioned her somewhere in his writings, but Google Books doesn't turn up any results. And the Cornish revivalists active on Wikipedia should have heard of her, too. For all we know, the John Doyle who wrote the article in 2005 might be the same person who introduced the mention of Alison Treganning into Wikipedia, so I'm still wondering if the whole story is not entirely bogus. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:46, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Cornic language[edit]

Cornic language should to come in the classification "Cymric language", and never in this stupid class of this aberrant, deviant & ridiculous wrong "celtic" tongue. It's like if, all the people had the brain full of opium's smoke, stuffed by jesuitic & holly joe drugs; with their memory totally lost.

Really crazy to read always the same lies & fallacies from mystifiers & hoaxers from Sects, Queens of propagandas.

I have re-discovered (Because my French tongue is very closed to the Old Cornish) that between CORNISH and LOEGRIAN (New-Loegrie = England or Angeland; Old-Loegrie = North of France; the right word now will be LOIR, LOIRE; previously LIGER, LOER = also the name of the "MOON". But, here, that will be too long to explain why.), so between KERNOW (CERNOU) or LOEGR (LLOEGR) there is absolutely NO, NOT, ZERO difference or dissimilarity of language; but just a geographic distinction by the terms. The Cornish lived in heights, montains, headlands, promontories, and the others LOEGRIANS lived on the side of water (coast of sea, rivers, pools, lakes); they speak exactly the same CYMRIC language. Of course following the place where you live, you take an accent and you create your own expressions. So, do you imagine century after century how much the words change. It's enough to see your tongue of the year 2011, totally different from the one of your grandparents (oh! "Grand Parents" it's 100% French from Galli-A, Great-Gall; country of Galli = Welsh; one Gall [gall, vall, gelsh, guelsh, welsh, velche).

For info : GU = W = VV, VU, UV, IV, YV, &c; also G = H or HI; and the finale double letter LL = SH, CHE (always in CYMRIC languages, like PortuGALL, GALLia, IBÊR = SPEAR-MAN = GALLIC, GALLISH, GALLICAN (not "Gaulish" at all, but all Welsh = Galli = Same CYMRIC = FIRST, language), &c; more 60 languages in World; which Arab, African dialects, some Chinese too & so much others).

To make simple & easy to understand (schematic): LOEGRIAN or CORNISH (= ONE CYMRIC, GALLIC COUNTRY, with several regions or kingdoms, it's the same thing), it's like today, you say "the Montagnards", the "Countrymen" and the "Urbans" (Oh! Three races, Three languages, now? NO of course there not); but there are always some differences in the languages, to describe or express the things, no? You don't think that is true & right? One thing is sure, the word "celtic" is an invention between 17th and 19th by very bad & idiots hoaxers (Celtomaniac, Churchy, Sect idolatrous of dead gobbledegook tongues).

It might that explains to you, what is the real meaning of the french word "LATIN", but it's enough to look at in a good dictionary of old Welsh (7th century) and you will sea alone its signification; LATIN, composed by "LAT', LAD, LADD" + suffix "IN" (from RINE) = (it's long for me to say in English, Find by yourself, Thanks!).

In the 10th and 11th century AD, there are only 2 MILLIONS people who lived in PRYDEIN = ENGLAND, U.K = NEW-LOEGRIE, when VVILLELM 1 (Williams = Guillaume) who spoke Welsh, and lived in CERNOU (French Kernow; named ORMANS, ORMANZIE, ORMANDY, "country of the ELMS" or "at North of MANS"), comes to fight HAROLD (not really a saxon) to solve a problem of succession, inheritance. I'm sure that the Welsh was happy that WILLELM (WILL of ELM; strong or quality of Elm) arrive in England to free this country form their Saxons. You should to to reexamine, to reassess seriously your History totally forged, falsified by the SECTS and HOAXERS (religious or not).

Ok, i hope that my english is not too bad with not too much spell mistakes. & stop all the Myths = False, Lies, of our History! 90% of the books are Wrong, only 10% are right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:31, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. This is a very impressive piece of linguistic lunacy. (talk) 14:46, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

History of the language[edit]

There is very little about the history of the language itself such as the actual content of the differences between Old, Middle and Late Cornish. It may be observed that the History of the section is primarily focused on the politics and sociolinguistics rather than the actual features of the language itself. Govynn (talk) 07:18, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Questionable Authenticity of "Revived" Cornish[edit]

The whole article from revival onwards strikes me as suspect and reading more as a propaganda piece by and for Cornish revivalists. As I understand matters only 2000 words of genuine Cornish survive, which is an inadequate basis from which to reconstruct a language and that the many gaps have been filled by borrowing from Welsh and Breton dialects. This is certainly recognised in textbooks of Indo-European languages, ie in my copy of Fortson's "Indo-European language and culture" it states "A dedicated effort has been made recently to revive the language; the result cannot be called authentic, since the paucity of our documentation and the inconsistencies in spelling leave many facts about the pronunciations, grammar and vocabulary unknown."

I think the entire article from section 4 onwards needs to be rewritten in NPOV with regards to scholarly linguistic opinion. What do other people think?Cthulhu Rising (talk) 21:02, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I think you're getting hung up about linguistic purity. If the community is happy calling whatever they salvaged and extended Revived Cornish, then that's what it is. That aside, I see sufficient conunuity between what is known of native Cornish and the revived forms. You might as well argue that modern Hebrew isn't Hebrew because it pilfered Yiddish for words. Akerbeltz (talk) 21:40, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Well as this is supposed to be an encyclopaedia entry, linguistic purity and scholarly dispassion are important. The speakers of "Revived" Cornish may think that it is a continuation of Cornish, but that doesn't make it so if the facts are otherwise. Which they are in both morphology and vocabulary. At the moment this isn't mentioned in the article and I feel it needs to be. But at the moment I'm just trying to gather opinions before I consider a rewrite, but it frustrates me that in so many areas of linguistics political dogma takes precedence over linguistic fact ("Croatian language" vs "Serbian language" anyone?). Language articles should be above such matters.Cthulhu Rising (talk) 19:36, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Now that I think of it, wouldn't it be better to have two pages - one for Cornish and one for Revived Cornish (linked to each other obviously)?Cthulhu Rising (talk) 19:40, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Cornish isn't "my patch" so any accusations of being partisan will hardly stick. I've looked at the whole page again and I fail to see where it substantially differs from Hebrew language. Or indeed any other language that has suffered significant change such as Rapa Nui.

I doubt there's a place for it in the article, but I still find it amusing that there is a regional option for Cornish in iOS which displays days of the week and month names in Cornish. (talk) 10:39, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

By all means, expanding a section on gaps that were creatively or otherwise filled would add to the article, no questions, but to split the article on the basis that some (mainly you just now) think it's not authentic enough flies in the face of reality. Akerbeltz (talk) 20:31, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
I've no idea where you got the idea that only 2,000 words of traditional Cornish are attested - that's utterly wrong. You say the article should be made more NPOV, but you do so from a position of POV - that revived Cornish is inauthentic. I would like to know what sources you have read that brought you to this conclusion. --Moon (talk) 21:30, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Fred W. P. Jago in his 1887 English-Cornish Dictionary says that "Excluding the names of persons and places, and numbering from all other remaining sources, it may be stated that about fifteen thousand words of the Celtic language of Cornwall have been saved to us." This was of course before various works of Cornish literature had been discovered, such as Beunans Ke, discovered in 2000, or John Tregear's Homilies in 1949, both contributing significantly to the traditional corpus. Bodrugan (talk) 20:32, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Jenner quote[edit]

I added "sic" to the Jenner quote (There has never been a time when there has been no person in Cornwall without [sic] a knowledge of the Cornish language) and made some additional changes. See this comment by Geoffrey K. Pullum. Thanks for pointing that out. If anyone can establish whether the error was introduced by Jenner or the cited source, that would be even better.--Boson (talk) 14:39, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Bodinar's Letter Transcriptions[edit]

Looking at the image of the letter, it seems to me that the top two boxes in the table of transcriptions are the wrong way round, the version with random Capitals being Bodinar's original spelling. Does anyone concur? (talk) 13:52, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Cornish films[edit]

It is good to see that the article mentions that there have been films in Cornish. However, rather than simply saying that this has been a "recent development", couldn't it state that when the first Cornish language films were made? I think that Cornish films were made as long ago as 2002, which is nine years ago now, so arguably no longer recent. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:46, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

There was a television series broadcast on ITV in the 1980s in Cornish with English subtitles. Bodrugan (talk) 20:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Currently (June 2016) a British Channel 4 Television advertisement for the Cornwall-based Kelly's ice-cream uses a combination of spoken Cornish and English. If this can be supported by RS then it may be added to the article. Barney Bruchstein (talk) 18:10, 20 June 2016 (UTC)


I know nothing about this so I don't want to tread on the experts' toes, but I notice that the last sentence of the "Revival" section has "From the earliest days under Grand Bards Henry Jenner and Morton Nance the 'Unified Form' has been used for the Gorsedd ceremony."

"Gorsedd" is the modern Welsh word - shouldn't it be "Gorseth" with a -th? Or is there a good reason for the -dd form in the Cornish context? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:50, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Gorsedd is Welsh. However, as there is no corresponding word in English, the Welsh Gorsedd is often used in English translations. For example, Cornish: Gorsedh (or Gorseth) Kernow English: The Gorsedd of Cornwall. There are currently two Cornish spellings, Gorseth (UC, UCR, KS) or Gorsedh (SWF, KK). Gorsedh Kernow previously used UC but switched to SWF in 2009 and the application of the SWF to the name is reflected in their website, so that's the spelling I've used in my revision to the section. (talk) 07:31, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Structuring and tidying[edit]

Hello- I've embarked on a improvement of the structure and tone of the article. There seems to be a fair amount of repetition and overlapping and parts need a few subheadings. In general I'm not really adding or removing content, other than eliminating repetition and adding a few sentences or short paras to make the sections flow better as part of structure improvement. I'll also try to add new citations and references where I've got the materials.Sweorcan (talk) 06:35, 23 July 2012 (UTC)


This article is a mess, and I feel it focuses too much on the history of the language and debating its death rather than its modern use. I'm going to be bold and start restructuring this article around the following headings, which are based on featured language articles like Swedish:

  • Classification, History, Geographic distribution, Phonology and dialects, Grammar, Writing system, Vocabulary, Samples.

--Kernowek (talk) 14:48, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I've moved the huge amount of info debating the last speaker of Cornish to a new article Last speaker of Cornish, and I've put most of the info about the spelling wars into Cornish revival. It's not 2004 anymore, let's put it in the past where it belongs. Perhaps we can model the revival article on such articles as Hebrew revival. --Kernowek (talk) 16:29, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't think Last speaker of Cornish is a very "encyclopaedic" article title, or standalone article for that matter. -- Evertype· 21:03, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Neither do I, but someone spent a lot of time writing that and it had to go somewhere. --Kernowek (talk) 22:02, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


The Cornish was largely extinct before punishment for speaking any language except English came in, in State schools. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:42, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Native speakers[edit]

I've tried to add a figure for the number of people brought up as native speakers. The best source I could find is from 2000, the independent academic study of Cornish, which was undertaken by Ken McKinnon on behalf of Government Office for the South West. This found a number of people had been raised as Cornish speakers or were then being raised in in that language. Indeed he found one woman Mrs Phoebe Proctor (c1910-2007) had been raised as a Cornish speaker by her father, Robert Morton Nance, one of the key people in the early 20th Century revival of Cornish. Also noted were an estimated 20 children acquiring the language as native speakers at that time and approximately 12 children raised bilingually with the help of an organisation established for that purpose in 1979. The study can be found here:

In addition there is now a full time Cornish language nursery school being set up. Since 2009 approximately fifty children between the ages of 1 and 7 have attended the setting for significant periods of time. but I don't know whether that is any good to mention in the article. Bodrugan (talk) 22:55, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Revival is certainly an important topic to discuss. I think the figure is fine to include as long as we note that it's a claim by activists rather than by uninterested parties. However, the extinction is just as important to note. What people are speaking now might be called "Neo-Cornish", but it's not true Cornish in the sense of being the same language that went extinct. Once a language is gone, you can reconstruct it, but you can't actually bring it back. (Modern Hebrew is debated, but even it has been restructured by the native languages of its first generation of speakers, and that's with the advantage of having had a continuous history as a liturgical and literary language, and advantage that Cornish does not have.) — kwami (talk) 00:48, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't think your point is valid, Kwami. There is enough documented overlap between native speakers and the revivalist to ensure authenticity of the Cornish of the revivalists.Jembana (talk) 02:01, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
There were no fluent speakers when it was revived, so it was being revived from extinction. It's not like the last native speakers started a kindergarten and raised a new generation of native Cornish speakers, who then went on to teach new generations. Modern Cornish is a reconstructed language. The claim that the result is original Cornish would be astonishing, and so would require some very good sources. — kwami (talk) 03:57, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Kwami, why did you accuse Bodrugan of edit warring and ask him to take it to talk. It is obvious from the above post that Bodrugan did so before your intervention. He has adequately explained his change when he did it. I feel it is improper of you to accuse an editor when they appear to have done the right thing by Wiki standards.Jembana (talk) 02:15, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
You take it to talk to try to find consensus. You don't take it to talk and continue edit warring. — kwami (talk) 02:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
But you have left the page not at is original state but the state that one of the edit warrers has changed it to. This doesn't seem right. The page should be left at the state it was before it was touched by any of the edit warrers. Wouldn't that be fairer ?Jembana (talk) 03:43, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, you're right, of course. I thought that's what I was doing. Could you rv. to the appropriate version? — kwami (talk) 03:51, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Wait a minute: What I reverted to is exactly as the article was before the edit war. It should be left as it is until we determine how to address the extinct/revived issue. — kwami (talk) 05:52, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Please be aware that there has been considerable academic debate over the death of Cornish both as a community language and as a native tongue. This is reflected in the article: Last speaker of Cornish (this used to be part of the Cornish language article but was removed a few months ago because of it's length). Indeed the evidence given there shows that there may have been at least one native speaker, John Mann, alive at the time Robert Morton Nance was bringing up his children in the revived language. Also worth pointing out is that the early revivalists did not start learning in 1904, but actually several decades before. Indeed they learnt a lot of words and phrases from old fishermen, and others, during that time, so learning the pronunciation from late Cornish. It was only later in the late 1920s and 1930s that there was a switch made to a Middle Cornish based spelling system in order to allow learners to easily read the middle Cornish texts.
There have been a lot of changes to this article over the past few months and I think that maybe a few key points were removed that ought to have stayed. Bodrugan (talk) 09:13, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I should also add that the UK government recognises Cornish, without differentiating between historical and revived, as a living language (see European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages) and so does UNESCO ( which obviously thinks the language being revitalized is the same as the one it had previously said was extinct. I don't really have a problem with stating in the infobox that the speakers are speaking a revitalised/revived form of the language. Bodrugan (talk) 09:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Unless John Mann taught Robert Morton Nance's children, the chain of transmission was broken and the language went extinct. Also, UNESCO knows nothing about languages; they presumably have no opinion, and even if they did, it wouldn't be worth anything. (Some of the stuff they publish is absolute garbage.) Decisions by UNESCO and the European Charter are political, not linguistic; they may defer judgement to activists who claim a right over diagnosing the language, so we're back to a biased POV. The linguistic sources I've checked all say that Cornish went extinct. People who have an emotional tie to a language will often deny that it's extinct. You can see this in the Cornish extinction article, but it happens with Coptic and plenty of Native American languages as well. Given that there are linguistic sources that say the language went extinct, we'd need a good linguistic source to contradict them. — kwami (talk) 10:47, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The issue here is not whether or not Cornish became extinct, but whether this article is suitable for describing the language as currently spoken in Cornwall. Kwami asserts that it is not, as he is of the opinion that traditional Cornish and revived Cornish are too far removed from each other (I would like to know how he came to this conclusion, was it by studying traditional and revived Cornish? Or is it a bias against revived versions of languages?). As far as I can see, this is merely his opinion. Regardless of how close modern Cornish is to its pre-1800 life, the language currently spoken in Cornwall is overwhelmingly called "Cornish", which in my opinion (and following common usage guidelines), would make it suitable for description in this article. --Kernowek (talk) 18:37, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Which Cornish? There have been different attempts to recreate the language which each call themselves Cornish. bobrayner (talk) 20:38, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
This is a misconception; there have been different orthographies attempting to codify the same language. --Kernowek (talk) 23:03, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, the different forms of Cornish come down to the different ways in which they are written rather than any great difference in speech. Bodrugan (talk) 00:17, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Since the edit war started up again, I added several linguistic refs for the status quo, but also accepted the ref'd claim of 20 native speakers from the other version (presumably to be removed if the ref turns out to not be a RS, but I'm not going to try to pass judgement on that). That's an attempt at compromise, but revert to the status quo if you really think it shouldn't be touched. BTW, when digging up sources, I came across several that said Davies was not a native speaker: He had some knowledge that had been passed down to him, such as numbers, but couldn't actually speak the language. I didn't come across a single source that said Cornish had survived; all who addressed the issue said it went extinct, like Manx. Also, the modern language has been called "Revived Cornish" with a capital R. One ref said most linguists were dismissive of the revival, but at least one was supportive, and that in the author's opinion Revived Cornish was of great importance for sociolinguistics. — kwami (talk) 01:02, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't see what point you're trying to make with those sources. You've used them to reference the line "Extinct by 19th century". Let's examine them:
  • Ken George, "Cornish", and George & Broderick, "The Revived Languages: Cornish and Manx" - The first chapter discusses Traditional Cornish which it says "was spoken until about 1800, when it ceased to exist as a living community language". In the second chapter, Cornish is described as having "been revived" and is "now spoken" after "being moribund throughout the nineteenth century". "Cornish" (not "Revived Cornish") is later described as "unquestionably a living language". The second chapter does not make any judgement about the authenticity of the revived language.
  • Christopher Mosely, ed., 2007, Encyclopedia of the World's Endangered Languages - The UNESCO Atlas (which you previously dismiss as a "political source") does not list "Traditional Cornish" and "Revived Cornish" separately. It lists them under one entry, "Cornish", which it classifies as "revived".
  • Hadumod Bussmann, 1996, Routledge Dictionary of Language and Linguistics - The entry for Breton describes it as belonging to the same group as "Welsh, Cornish and the extinct Gaulish". The entry for Celtic describes Cornish as "extinct since the eighteenth century, but currently experiencing a revival". There is no entry for Cornish.
  • P.J Payton, "Cornish", in Brown & Ogilvie, eds., 2009, Concise Encyclopedia of Languages of the World - This source says nothing about an extinction. It treats Cornish as one language in its description, from the Old Cornish period to the present day.
  • Bernard Comrie, ed, 2009, The World's Major Languages, 2nd edition - The author briefly mentions Cornish as "extinct".
  • James Clackson, 2007, Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction - The author briefly mentions Cornish as "no longer spoken", along with Manx and Gaulish.
  • Gareth King, 2003, Modern Welsh: A Comprehensive Grammar, 2nd edition - Cornish is described as "extinct since the late eighteenth century, though recently 'resurrected'".
So in fact, only two of those references you've given definitively describe Cornish as currently being extinct. Two others say nothing of the sort. But this is not what is under dispute. Rather, this is about your opinion that traditional Cornish and revived Cornish cannot be treated as the same language, therefore it's impossible for Cornish to have native speakers, and therefore should be made clear in the infobox. This is an opinion, nothing more, and cherrypicking sources in an attempt to reinforce that opinion does not hide the POV.
There are countless sources, including a few given by you, that treat traditional and revived Cornish as one language. There are also countless sources that describe Cornish as currently having native speakers. Your POV does not invalidate those sources. The following is a quote from Nicholas Williams' (Associate Professor in Celtic Languages at University College Dublin) book Desky Kernowek, which while not suitable as a reference for this article, I'd like to throw in for good measure:
"It is important that learners should at every stage understand that what they are being taught is grounded in authentic Cornish, and is not a modern construct devised according to modern preferences and thus only partially related to the traditional language".
Whether or not languages like Hebrew, Cornish and Manx can be said to be truly revived is a lingustic debate that does not belong, and will not be solved, on this page. With that in mind, there would seem to be two solutions to this debate:
  1. Recognise that Cornish, including its revived version and regardless of how close it is to traditional Cornish, is overwhelmingly treated as one continuous language from its development from South Western Brittonic to the present day, and treat it as such in this article.
  2. Treat revived and traditional Cornish separately, splitting the language into periods of Old, Middle, Late and Modern/Revived. Since the modern language as currently spoken is overwhelmingly described as "Cornish", common usage would require this article to focus on the revived language, and treat the historical language under separate headings. Which is exactly what is done now.
I suggest that for the purposes of this article, Cornish is treated as one language, and that information given in the infobox reflect that. --Kernowek (talk) 11:36, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry kwami, you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick. The 'status quo', as you put it, was the version before Bobrayner's edits on 11 November.Bodrugan (talk) 12:18, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
It's also the version people decided on until this was worked out. — kwami (talk) 12:49, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
That's a straw-man argument, Kernowek. I never said Cornish is extinct. Quite the opposite: I restored the source saying it now has native speakers. My point is that it went extinct, and was then revived. My argument is with those who say it never went extinct; I have not found a single linguistic source which backs that up, while I've found many (and not just those above) that say it is or was extinct. — kwami (talk) 12:49, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
So what are we arguing about then? And what is a "straw-man argument"? --Kernowek (talk) 14:58, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Maybe nothing? I'm happy with noting the language now has native speakers (assuming of course the ref holds up); I just think it's important to note that at one time it was extinct. As for how authentic the revival is, that's up to our sources, and won't fit in the box anyway. — kwami (talk) 16:06, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
A straw-man argument is when you misrepresent your opponent's argument so you can more easily refute it. I thought that's what you were doing. (Though I suppose it's a straw-man argument even if you don't know you're doing it.) — kwami (talk) 16:06, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I am also happy with noting the language has native speakers in the infobox where it says "Native speakers". But I don't think that infobox field is appropriate for mentioning the language died out, because the field's title is "Native speakers" not "Date of Extinction". The language's decline should be mentioned in the intro and the main text, which is already is.--Kernowek (talk) 09:00, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

You stated above "Modern Hebrew is debated... and that's with the advantage of having had a continuous history as a liturgical and literary language, and advantage that Cornish does not have." I beg to differ. Cornish was used as a liturgical language until at least the first half of the 19th century. (Peter Berresford Ellis, The Cornish Language and its Literature, p125), also it was studied and learnt by antiquarians and academics straight through from the 18th to the revival.Bodrugan (talk) 14:41, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Maybe. Hebrew's unusual, though, in the degree to which it was learned after it went extinct. — kwami (talk) 16:06, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
The Hebrew info box does not mention that it became extinct - why are you insisting on it for Cornish ?Jembana (talk) 06:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I've just changed the info box slightly to read more like Manx language. Also "Extinct as a community language by about 1800." to correspond with the sources as Kernowek pointed out above: "The Revived Languages: Cornish and Manx" - The first chapter discusses Traditional Cornish which it says "was spoken until about 1800, when it ceased to exist as a living community language".Bodrugan (talk) 16:34, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

See above, I don't think the "Native speakers" infobox field is appropriate for mentioning a past extinction. --Kernowek (talk) 09:00, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
That's been how we treat other languages. Also, what does "extinct as a community language" mean? Language extinction is clearly defined, and Cornish was simply extinct. — kwami (talk) 21:09, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
It's a fable that Cornish died. This is outlined in detail in 'The Story of the Cornish Language' by Peter Beresford Ellis (1998, reprinted in 2005). The book is was readily available. Let's got through the history documented in this book as per WP:VERIFY so we can have sure that the word extinction can be left out as it has been in the article for a long time until the current edit war (as it is on the Hebrew language page to be consistent). Regarding use by a community of people we have only to look at the fishing village of Mousehole in particular it's fishermen. Historian Daines Barrington (brother of Admiral the Hon. Samuel Barrington) in 1773 reported his interview of Dolly Pentreath and her two neighbours opposite to the Society of Antiquaries who published it in their journal in 1776. Dolly Pentreath died a year later. Daines Barrington contributed a second paper to Archaeologia in 1776, containing a letter received in 1776 from a fisherman of Mousehole together with and English translation. The fisherman, William Bodener who died in 1794, says that he knew five people in Mousehole alone who spoke Cornish, and this disproves the now popular but entirely erroneous fable/belief that Dolly Pentreath was the last speaker of Cornish. Indeed, Barrington himself said that John Nancarrow of Marazion (born 1709), who was still living in the 1790s, was also a native speaker. Bodener claimed that he and Dolly Pentreath used to have long talks in Cornish, though a man named Thompson of Truro, who was the author of Dolly Pentreath's epitaph, claimed he knew more Cornish than she did. In 1790 one of the the most interesting and exacting text books to be written on Cornish was published. This was Archaeologia Cornu-Brittania by Dr William Pryce. The book contains Lluyd's grammar, under his own name, and the copious vocabulary collected by Gwavas and Tonkin plus several Cornish texts. Pryce's books enabled the nineteenth centrury scholar, Dr Edwin Norris, to gain sufficient knowledge to bring out a translation of the Middle Cornish dramas.Jembana (talk) 22:10, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Assuming all that is true, it still leaves a gap of a century. Given that we have multiple RS's that the language went extinct, what you would need are RS's that the first generation of bilingual children in the revival were taught by native Cornish speakers. — kwami (talk) 00:40, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
I'll go on to address the first point first, others have already addressed the second point and their comments on those RS's have not been refuted and as to the third point all discussing here should read WP:OWNERSHIP and decide whether it applies in this instance to your further restriction of the criteria to disprove extinction. The detailed RS 'The Story of the Cornish Language' by Peter Beresford Ellis (1998, reprinted in 2005) goes on to address your first concern in the following section on page 20 titled "Did Cornish Die?". It poses the question 'Did the Cornish language die at the end of the eighteenth century?" It goes on to say that: 'By death it is meant that native knowledge of the language ceased.' so we have the criteria to use now. It goes on to say that "We have ample evidence that there were a number of native speakers still alive in the early 1800s." and then poses the question "But did they pass on this knowledge to their children?". It then lists these:
  • John Tremethack died in 1852 aged 87. He taught Cornish to his daughter Mrs Kelynack of Newlyn who was still alive in 1875.
  • Mrs W J Rawlings of Hayle learned to say the Lord's Prayer and Creed in Cornish at her school in Penzance. She was the mother-in-law of the Cornish scholar, Henry Jenner [one of the principal but not the first as noted above of the revivalists], and died in 1879 aged 57.
  • Bernard Victor of Mousehole learnt a great deal of Cornish from his father. Victor met Jenner in 1875 and passed on to him his knowledge of the language.
  • Jago, in his English-Cornish Dictionary of 1887 remarks: 'Even now there are men living (Mr Bernard Victor of Mousehole and Mr W F Pentreath of Newquay, to wit) who know many Cornish words apart from books; words which have been handed down and are not yet dead. Furthermore, the Cornish dialect is to this day full of Celtic Cornish words.'.
  • Victor and Pentreath listed some of their Cornish vocabulary in the Penzance newspaper The Cornishman in 1879.
  • Dr Stevens of St Ives, talking to the historian John Hobson Matthews in 1892, recalled he was taught to count in Cornish, He remembered that his grandfather frequently used to exclaim Scatel angow! which has been interpreted as 'a pack of lies!'.
  • John Davey of Zennor died in 1891. It was claimed that he was the last surviving native speaker of Cornish. His stone memorial reads 'John Davey 1812-1891 of Boswednack in this parish... who was the last to possess any traditional considerable knowledge of the Cornish language.'. Davey, it was reported, could hold conversations on many topics in Cornish. He also sang various traditional Cornish songs.
  • But I see much of this has already been documented in Last speaker of the Cornish language. Please can every contributor please read this page.
  • To quote from this RS: 'It would seem, then, that there were at least a small number of Cornish who had learned the language, or phrases of it, from their parents. From this evidence it can safely be said that the last native speakers of Cornish did not die out until the end of the nineteenth century.'.Jembana (talk) 05:27, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
And assuming all that is true, there was still a break, and still extinction. But "speaking" is being used loosely here. Many of these people are what are sometimes called "rememberers". They're not native speakers, but they remember some words or phrases that were used by their parents or grandparents, who were native speakers. Then there are "passive speakers", who understand the language through exposure to it, but don't speak it. Generally some knowledge of a language survives for a few generations in a family after the last native speaker has died. (That's the case in my family.) That can be valuable for documentation, but it's not the same as a native speaker. John Davey, for example, is thought to have not been able to hold an actual conversation in Cornish, according to the linguistic refs I've seen. Other people knew songs that had been passed down, or specific vocabulary, but didn't actually speak the language. You'll find the same thing in other extinct languages, sometimes ones that have been extinct for a century. — kwami (talk) 09:02, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
There was no break as the RS concludes, Henry Jenner (1848–1934, a brilliant scholar and incidentally the first Grand Bard and founder of the Cornish Gorsedd) carried on as a new native speaker deriving his knowledge of the language from his own family (mother-in-law) plus Victor from the Mousehole community, John Davey and other native speakers at his time even the Bishop of Truro or some of his parishoners (see below). He started the revival and passed on the language to Nance and others in the revival movement. In the section in the RS titled 'The Revivalists' on page 23 it states "Jenner spent much time touring Cornwall interviewing people who still remembered the language and collecting vocabulary, songs and phrases....In December 1877, Jenner organised a memorial ceremony for Dolly Pentreath in order to draw attention to the language. The Bishop of Truro surprised everyone by sending a message of congratulations in Cornish....Jenner had become proficient in Breton as well as Cornish....In 1901 Jenner instigated the formation of Cowerthas Kelto-Kernuak - the Celtic Cornish Society - the first Cornish language movement.'. So from the RS native knowledge of the language did not cease so no mention of extinction is warranted in the info-box. The hypothesis us Cornish are defending is that "native knowledge of the Cornish language continued to the present day". The null hypothesis of this is "at some time in the modern era there was no native knowledge of the Cornish". This null hypothesis is disproved by the evidence us Cornish have presented and in scientific terms it only requires one instance of disproof of the null hypothesis to uphold the hypothesis "native knowledge of the Cornish language continued to the present day" so your other sources are irrelevant. Appreciate your own family history regarding language extinction - you cannot know how close it is for some older Cornish descendants.Jembana (talk) 00:07, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
So, you have one promotional source against all the linguistic sources I was able to find. That's not convincing. According to the sources I could find, Davies was probably not a native speaker: His primary language was English, and he had some knowledge of Cornish that had been handed down. That's how it's always worded: "traditional knowledge" and "enthusiast", not "native speaker". Most linguists at the time dismissed the revival from extinction as folly, or as a hobby. Looks like they were proven wrong, but still, the linguistic POV at the time and until today is that the language went extinct. Now, if you wish to present the survival hypothesis, that's fine, but RS's depend on the field. For linguistic claims, linguistic sources. — kwami (talk) 00:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Recognised Celtic scholar and historian Peter Berresford Ellis publications can hardly be called a "promotional" source. It is a serious and detailed historical account on the Cornish language indeed it is called "The Story of the Cornish Language" as I pointed out before so it is a linguistic reference. Not only that but the shallow depth of the research you have done for your claim of extinction for Cornish is revealed by your continuing use of "Davies" for John Davey and your recent unsourced changes on the Last speaker of the Cornish language page to support your case (thankfully now reverted). I'll repeat the finding of Peter Beresford-Ellis that the language did not go extinct because the initiator of the revival movement, First Grand Bard Henry Jenner, was in fact a native speaker having learned the language from many people in Cornwall including John Davey as outlined. Indeed his version of Cornish was based upon the form of the language used in West Cornwall in the 18th century. Peter Beresford-Ellis makes the point on page 18 that the account by historian Daines Barrington of an interview he had with Dolly Pentreath of Mousehole in 1768 gave the foundations to the now popular - but entirely erroneous belief that Dolley was the last speaker of Cornish.. This popular misconception explains why you can find so many sources that state this. Their depth of research is clearly inadequate.Jembana (talk) 06:01, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

There may of course, have been other speakers who left with Nancarrow. He certainly seems one of the last ‘recorded’ speakers to carry with him knowledge of Cornish. As both Weatherhill and Lyon have noted, Cornish continued to be spoken in west Cornwall for much of the nineteenth century; Lyon’s research in particular demonstrating a small yet notable continuity from Dolly Pentreath and William Bodinar through to people with knowledge of traditional Cornish, such as Ann Wallis, John Tremethick, Mrs. Berryman/Quick, Jane Barnicoate, Bernard Victor, John Davey Senior, Jacob Care, Elizabeth Vingoe and Mr. Mann, in the same period as the late nineteenth and early twentieth-century revival. Presumably many unrecorded miners, fishermen and farmers took knowledge with them as well, that was above and beyond the stage of Cornish words preserved within Cornu-English. Bodrugan (talk) 03:33, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Infobox description[edit]

I'm forking this discussion because it keeps veering towards debating whether or not Cornish became extinct, which for all intents and purposes it clearly did. What I want to discuss is the description under the infobox field "Native speakers", which previously said "557 main language (2011), 3,500 total speakers (2008)", to which Kwami added "Extinct as a first language by 19th century" with the reasoning that "The extinction belongs in the box. Native speakers today don't actually speak Cornish, but a reconstruction of Cornish." The infobox is for current information about Cornish as it is today. Cornish did become extinct, but it was revived, so it is no longer extinct. Therefore mentioning the extinction in the infobox is unnecessary. The sole purpose of the "Native speakers" field is to mention the amount of speakers that Cornish currently has. Kwami's opinion that "native speakers today don't actually speak Cornish, but a reconstruction of Cornish", is what I have an issue with. --Kernowek (talk) 17:40, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

When did the "Cornish" ethnic group appear? Was that before or after the cornish language was reinvented? Since there were different reinventions of the language, does that mean there are different "Cornish" ethnic groups determined by an individual's choice of orthography and syntax? bobrayner (talk) 20:42, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Although the nation is British, there are those amongst the speakers of Cornish and amongst those from Cornwall who speak English who identify as Cornish at the same level as those calling themselves English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish. To deny this when it is sourced is plain unjust and ignorant, and implicit that they are "something else" (ie. English). A person chooses his ethnicity, it is not affected by his parents or what people see him as. --ТНОМАЅ МАСКЕТ (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2013 (UTC) Striking out sockpuppet. bobrayner (talk) 13:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

When did self-applied labels become the basis of ethnicity? Of course, a few thousand people said they were ethnically Cornish (as a subset of British) on a census form; rather less than a fifth the number claiming to be Jedi. bobrayner (talk) 21:21, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Since forever. Self-applied labels are all that form the basis for ethnicity. Read the article and read the sources. If one could not identify differently from his parents, the whole world would be one and the same. ТНОМАЅ МАСКЕТ (talk) 21:27, 5 December 2013 (UTC) Striking out sockpuppet. bobrayner (talk) 13:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Also Jedi. Yes, some people identify by that but that tends to be their religion. End of the day, when census results are released and they say 2 million Turkish live in Germany or half a million Silesians in Poland, it is down to what people chose and for me to tell them differently based on what the wider community says is ignorant. ТНОМАЅ МАСКЕТ (talk) 21:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC) Striking out sockpuppet. bobrayner (talk) 13:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
I just searched the archives of Ethnology, the International Journal of Cultural and Social Anthropology. Zero results for Cornish. Of course, all ethnicities are ultimately human creations (and most nationalities were built relatively recently), but that doesn't mean that any word somebody uses to describe themselves is automatically an ethnicity. That is nonsensical and it is unfortunate that you keep this nonsense in the article with repeated reverts. Sooner or later, this article will reflect what reliable sources say. bobrayner (talk) 21:38, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, any word that any people use to describe themselves means that is their ethnicity, and automatically. Sorry it comes as such a shock. If it weren't so, the whole world would be one and the same. How do you define a Kurd in Iran when they are both Aryan nations, their languages forming a dialect continuum and people on the fringes mixed on whether to call themselves Persian or Kurdish. ТНОМАЅ МАСКЕТ (talk) 21:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC) Striking out sockpuppet. bobrayner (talk) 13:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
[2] from the Cornwall Council. Scroll down to the bit that says "In Cornwall, a Cornish ethnicity is recognised." It isn't just a self-recognition, it is wider than that, and there are other reliable sources. Referring to it as "nonsense" is nothing more than insulting. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:56, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. So Cornish people go beyond the minimum criteria for being a nation in their own right. Also there is this 2001 census information[3]. ТНОМАЅ МАСКЕТ (talk) 22:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC) Striking out sockpuppet. bobrayner (talk) 13:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

"Distribution of the Cornish language in Europe"?[edit]

The infobox tells us very clearly the language is spoken in Cornwall. No other regions are listed. In view of this, how useful is the map showing "distribution of the Cornish language in Europe"? In essence it simply shows us where Cornwall is. No similar map is used for Welsh language, nor would I expect one. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:42, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I really dont see the big deal having it. If anything its a reference for a large amount of people who dont know where Cornwall is in England. Do you think having the map is somehow disruptive in the space of the article? Shabidoo | Talk 22:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
It's not "disruptive" in my view, just a waste of space. As useless as a European map would be at Manx language, for example. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:14, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
A misuse of prime space having it so prominent. The historic distributions are more important. Leave it in commons where it would still be accessible. SovalValtos (talk) 22:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
The wikilink Cornwall in the lead is sufficient to inform those who do not know where Cornwall is.SovalValtos (talk) 22:55, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree with SovalValtos and Martinevans123, a map of Europe to show where Cornish is spoken is hardly necessary. On a related topic, is there any locality even in Cornwall where 5% or more are fluent in Cornish?Jeppiz (talk) 23:13, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
The map is also wrong. It shows Cornish being spoken in Devon, but not in Penwith! --Kerneweger (talk) 16:02, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Interesting papers[edit]

there's an interesting paper about the history of the language and its revival here with plenty of things that could be added to this article or potentially other ones specifically on the revival, history, media, education etc. Bodrugan (talk) 16:01, 17 January 2015 (UTC) this paper would be useful too.Bodrugan (talk) 16:22, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Great Bodrugan. Why not be bold and add some of the material to the article? Shabidoo | Talk 02:38, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Infobox problems[edit]

The infobox currently states:

Extinct      by 19th century, perhaps with the death of Dolly Pentreath in December 1777[1]
Revival     20 native speakers of revived Cornish (2000)[2]
557 people claim Cornish as their main language (2011)[3]

The opening paragraph of the Extinct language page states that: "An extinct language is a language that no longer has any speakers,[1] or that is no longer in current use. Extinct languages are sometimes contrasted with dead languages, which are still known and used in special contexts in written form, but not as ordinary spoken languages for everyday communication. However, language extinction and language death are often equated."

So surely Cornish fits the description of Language death better. Cornish was known academically by antiquarians and as a liturgical language (the Lord's prayer, creed and ten commandments were all known and taught in Cornish through the 18th, 19th and still known by some elderly people into the 20th century) right through the 19th century to the present day.

Another point is that the "20 native speakers of revived Cornish" is not supported by the reference given. The reference only tells us that there were 20 children in the year 2000 who were then being brought up as native speakers. The figure doesn't seem to take into account those raised in the 100 years before as it states that probably the first child in the 20th century to be brought up with Cornish was Morton Nance's daughter Phoebe Proctor (she died in 2007 at the age of 97) and there were approximately 12 children raised as native speakers through the work of Dalleth, which was established in 1979. Bodrugan (talk) 23:24, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Would you give the sources, please?Jeppiz (talk) 23:37, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
the reference is the same: Ken McKinnon, Cornish Language Study 2000 - pages 20 and 65 (on Phoebe Nance), page 50 (on Dalleth), page 34 (on number of children being raised as 'native speakers' in 2000) and 14-17 gives much information on the continued use of the Lord's prayer, Creed, numerals etc. into the 20th century and also on academic/antiquarian knowledge in the 19th century. Bodrugan (talk) 17:47, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 4 external links on Cornish language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 20:03, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Neutrality of Text[edit]

The style of this page suggests that it was largely written by enthusiasts and/or promoters of the revival of Cornish. The introduction, for example, says that Cornish is "widely" considered to be "an important part of Cornish identity, culture and heritage". Further into the page we read that Cornish is a "vital" aspect of "Cornish culture and identity". Given that less than 1% of people living in Cornwall claim that Cornish is their first language, and, at most, only a couple of thousand people claim to have any conversational ability in Cornish, the claim that Cornish is "vital" is hardly born out by the facts. I have no interest in Cornish specifically and only a passing amateur interest in language generally, so this impression is coming from someone who has no skin in the game, pro or anti! My criticism is of the un-encyclopedic language. Some of this reads more like a promotional pamphlet than an encyclopedic article. --621PWC (talk) 21:40, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I would tend to agree that those two external sources in the lede do not support the use of the word "widely", so it should be removed. Similarly the senetence "Cornish was the predominant language of the Cornish people for most of their history, and is still seen today as a vital aspect of Cornish culture and identity" has no source(s), so I have added a tag. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:44, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Erm - what?[edit]

"Edward Lhuyd theorises[citation needed] that the language of this time was heavily inflected, possessing not just the genitive, ablative and locative cases so common in Early Modern Cornish, but also dative and accusative cases, and even a vocative case, although historical references to this are rare."

This is nonsense. Cornish has not marked for case since loss of final syllables in the 6th-7th centuries, like Welsh and Breton. Can this reference just be deleted

— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:07, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Extinct - infobox[edit]

"probably with the death of Dolly Pentreath on 26 December 1777" is clearly incorrect. No need to cite this old myth.--Batmacumba (talk) 17:40, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Those seven separate sources are all wrong, then?Martinevans123 (talk) 18:06, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, if that is what they claim. Check out the article Extinct language for the meaning of extinct in this context. There was still at least one fluent speaker of Cornish alive after Dolly Pentreath's death. Even the man who discovered her mentions several other speakers younger than her who survived her. She was probably the last Cornish speaker to reach adulthood without learning English, but we don't know that she was alone in that respect.Bodrugan (talk) 22:21, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
You mean Barrington? Maybe you could provide an exact source for his claim. But yes, even the article for Dolly Pentreath says "Although it is sometimes claimed she was the last monolingual speaker of the language – the last person who spoke only Cornish, and not English – her own account as recorded by Daines Barrington contradicts this." Perhaps we need to examine exactly what each of those seven sources say. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
"Probably" isn't very encyclopedic. Furthermore, dinosaurs are extinct because they all died. They can't be brought back. Pictish is extinct because nobody knows enough about it. Languages like Cornish, Manx and Hebrew fell out of use, but they never became extinct. --Kerneweger (talk) 04:38, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
You're saying languages are essentially like dinosaurs or, at least, like animal species? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:05, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
No, Kernoweger is saying that languages don't go extinct like animal species. Bodrugan (talk) 22:49, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
So can "extinct" even be used in the infobox? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:53, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Yes, similarly to use in the infobox of Hebrew language. Jeppiz (talk) 23:29, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Dains Barrington's original account published in 1775 states that two women, neighbours of Dolly Pentreath, were able to not only understand her, but told him that they could speak Cornish as well, although not as readily as Pentreath. Pentreath stated herself that she did not start speaking English until she was twenty years old, so she was a monolingual Cornish speaker throughout her childhood. William Bodinar (died 1789) wrote a letter in Cornish in 1775 in which he states that he learned Cornish as a child and that there were four or five others able to speak Cornish in Mousehole at that time, a year before Dolly Pentreath's death. Later, in 1779, Barrington was informed that a 40 year old man named John Nancarrow of Market-Jew could speak Cornish. This can all be found in, amongst other sources, Barrington's own published accounts, Berresford Ellis's The Cornish Language and it's Literature, and Rod lyon's Cornish: the Struggle for Survival. Bodrugan (talk) 00:02, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Discussion at ANI[edit]

There is a discussion about recent edits to this page at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User_deliberately_disrupting_WP_as_a_school_assignment. DuncanHill (talk) 17:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Plase add the protection template[edit]

Please add the protection template to the page, so that editors can more readily make edit requests instead of having to google what to do. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:49, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Number of speakers today[edit]

How many people speak Cornish today? The number isn't in the lead section or the infobox. Did I miss this in the article? Foreignshore (talk) 19:45, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

L1 0-300 (estimated), source -
L2 users: 325-625 (estimated), source -
Cdjp1 (talk) 13:11, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

An elusive Cornish sound[edit]

The sound represented by the IPA symbol "ɹ" is linked to an article on 'alveolar and postalveolar approximants'. The same symbol appears there as the correct IPA symbol for such sounds - but Cornish isn't mentioned as one of the languages that contains it, even though the lists include a number of very out-of-the-way languages such as Dahalo, Igbo and Zapotec. This means that one of the articles is incorrect or at least incomplete - or perhaps both are. (talk) 16:59, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

No, it does not mean that. No phoneme has an article in which every language containing it is listed, so one cannot draw the conclusion that Cornish not being mentioned there means either Cornish does not have it or that one of the articles must be wrong. Jeppiz (talk) 19:38, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Dead Language?[edit]

The Wikipedia article on Celtic languages says that Cornish "died out in modern times", citing the specific date of 1777.

Either that article or this one must be incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:20, 11 February 2017 (UTC)