|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Counter-Reformation article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
|Counter-Reformation has been listed as a level-4 vital article in History. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as C-Class.|
|WikiProject Christianity / Theology / Catholicism||(Rated C-class, High-importance)|
|WikiProject Netherlands||(Rated C-class)|
- 1 End of article is wanting
- 2 A lot of work to do here
- 3 Requested move to Catholic Reformation
- 4 Counter Reformation vs. Catholic Reformation
- 5 NPOV?
- 6 Unsourced statement removed
- 7 Expand...
- 8 Art
- 9 Oddity: counter-reformation reformation
- 10 Requested move
- 11 Title change definitely needed
- 12 Counter-Reformation
- 13 Devotional, Observantine, and Legalist traditions
- 14 Spain and the Catholic Reformation
- 15 Early calendrical work
- 16 LeRoy Froom reliable?
- 17 Needs indepth section on why counter-reformation was a flop in England and Sweden
- 18 "Roman Catholic" is standard term among Catholic scholars
- 19 Orphaned references in Counter-Reformation
End of article is wanting
This article is in need of a "summary and legacy" section at the end. This article ends very abruptly and I think its inappropriate for a period of history that had so many reaching effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 20:56, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
A lot of work to do here
Wow, there is a lot of work to do here. The treatment of Trent is very poor. It should be outlined briefly by sessions without such sweeping statements with a POV tone. Since Trent had numerous sessions over the course of several decades, it should be a recurring subheading. There is so much material here that it should be first decided whether to organize it chronologically or thematically. Previously, the structure was a real mess with Trent as a heading following be Reforms as a heading with the "Reforms section being a continuation of the Trent discussion. It is even confusing to describe it! this is gay how you can change this all you want.
Anyway, am chipping away at this, if anyone out there is interested, give me a holler!--Vaquero100 00:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
== I've deleted the signed comment suggesting this page be moved. If the move is uncontroversial, just do it. If you expect the move to be controversial, follow the procedure described at Wikipedia:Requested moves. --Stebulus 03:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Requested move to Catholic Reformation
Counter Reformation vs. Catholic Reformation
to take back what the Catholic Church lost to Protestantism.
Protestants didn't come back to the Catholic Church
One main church
to reform Catholic Church (hence the name "Catholic reformation")
Popes aren't calling meetings because they are scared their authority will be lowered,
Finally decide that they will call Council of Trent because Protestantism is spreading fast!
Reform in Catholic Church
18.104.22.168 03:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)AP STUDENT in HS
The widely-used term "Counter-Reformation" usually means not only the spiritual reformation of the Catholic Church, but also the violent trials to destroy the protestant movement. E.g. the Hugenots Wars and the Thirty Years War are usually seen as a part of the Counter-Reformation.
In this article, the war violence of the catholic powers is not mentioned at all. The protestants are named "sects", and their eventual return to catholicism is described as fully peaceful. (In the reality, there were hundreds of thousands of victims.)
The article should be completed in this direction, or marked as non-NPOV. (I myself cannot do it because of my poor English.)
--M.m.h 13:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm... this comment has been sitting here without a response for four months. I think M.m.h makes a valid point. Unfortunately, this is not an area of expertise for me. M.m.h, if you will attempt to write some text that addresses these issues, I will be glad to copyedit for you and insert it into the article.
- --Richard 00:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- I will try it to change the first information, so that both the main definitions of the term would be mentioned. --M.m.h 13:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Sadly, I think that linking the term "Counter-Reformation" to the violence due to religious intolerance between both Protestants and Catholics (who were equally guilty of such violence as were royalty who wished to excuse mass-murder under religious justifications) is a distraction. Some actually believe that the Jesuits are sworn enemies of Protestantism willing to do whatever it takes to demolish the Protestant sects. I know about this because someone from my church tried to excuse his admittedly anti-papist prejudice using such "reasoning."
Protestants right after the Reformation were just as guilty of murdering Catholics as Catholics were of murdering Protestants. Back then, folks in Europe were not as educated as they are today. The Gutenberg Press was recently invented, and Martin Luther's protest was just starting to get attention. To slur present-day Catholics by using the past is akin to blaming German babies most recently born for the Holocaust. In other words, it is wholly inaccurate.
--Kulturvultur 04:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
- Numbers game, dude. Picture two groups, one that is relatively small (think less than 1/10 the size of the other at first) and one that is, comparatively, quite large. The big one is bent on imposing the options of destruction or assimilation on the smaller group; the smaller group is more focused on survival. And if that's not working so well, escape to America. (And yes, they go on to commit genocide there...but this is about Catholics and Protestants and what they did to each other). As far as that goes, it's not right for you to say Protestants and Catholics were doing the same exact things to each other. It's not accurate. That's a lie. You'll go back to talking about size disparity as soon as you feel like it does good things for you, but when you're on this topic you want to avoid it all of a sudden. How nice for you.
You are not right. It is not the question to blame somebody, but to describe the term as exactly as possible. At present, only one point of view, or one of several definitions is described. We should at least discern between (1) the counter-reformation as a movement within the catholic church and (2) the counter-reformation as a historical period. --M.m.h 13:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- The Counter-reformation and the religious wars were not as linked as you think. The Huegnot war and the Thirty years war were initiated for purely political resons. This is seen by the fact that Henry of Navre, the Protestant King of France converted to Catholicism and that a century later Catholic France fought against Catholic HRE in favor of the protestant powers. Cite your references before making absurd suggestions that the religious wars were linked. I can't see any POV issues here. The counter-reformation was the peaceful way to bring Protestants back to Rome; the religious wars were politically motivated wars with a secondary objective of changing the religion of the vanquished. Tourskin (talk) 07:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- You are mixing the concepts. I do not speak about religious wars only, but about the violent recatholization of some parts of Europe, not only during, but also after the Thirty Years War in Bohemian lands, or a lot of local processes earlier. There was mostly no peaceful return of Protestants back to Rome. And there is a lot of sources about it, almost every book on history of that period, read e.g. http://www.tourmycountry.com/austria/history7.htm (it cannot be linked here): "From around 1600, they launched a campaign called the counterreformation, which consisted of violent prosecutions and the expulsion of protestants (Salzburg expelled protestants in two waves, too)..." (this was the first one in Google, you can find a lot of others).
- As I have written above, the concept "counter-reformation" is widely used not for the "peaceful way etc.", but for the whole historical period of (mostly violent) recatholization in Europe. --Mmh (talk) 09:47, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Unsourced statement removed
I have removed the following statement, as it was tagged "citation needed" for several months.
- This examination of the Copernican theory was a factor in starting the scientific revolution outside the Catholic Church, which banned the study of Galileo's works until the mid-eighteenth century.
Can we expand Counter-Reformation#Spiritual Movements. I believe it's necessary for that's short it provides very little information. You only said about that Spirituali, but that there are so many other movements have sprung up, including those seen on the introduction part of the article. -Pika ten10 (talk) 06:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC) Well, I expanded. The Spirituali had according to the Wikipedia article here, Zero influence, so why include them? I could name 100 persons equally unimportant at that time --Ambrosius007 (talk) 14:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm surprised that there's nothing in the article about Counter-Reformation painting or other art forms except music, or the wider cultural project of the Counter-Reformation. There is a separate entry on The Reformation and art which discusses both Protestant and Catholic art, but perhaps there should be a brief summary in this article. I added a reference to the "See also" at the bottom, but that's not a substitute for a proper mention of visual arts, literature, etc, in the article body. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 17:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know if that was an explicit part of the Counter-reformation. Tourskin (talk) 19:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Oddity: counter-reformation reformation
Being a "protestant", I cannot avoid criticise the idiotic term "counter-reformation". OK, a reformation to counter reformations? The best way to counter-reform is to refuse to do anything... Isn't it instead a reformation in parallel, inspired by (the bad sides, mostly) of protestant reformation? This is my criticism, but shouldn't the name of the article be "Roman-Catholic Revival"? Counter-reformation seems to be a bad term, since it gives the false reactionary impression about a constructive and progressive spiritual work. (??) Said: Rursus ☻ 09:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that the term is - as you say - "idiotic"; It should be Catholic Reformation, there are plenty of references here:  ClemMcGann (talk) 09:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, Johnbod, it might or might not be idiotic, but since you seem to have serious difficulties expressing yourself in English, you hardly seem the right person to pass judgement on a question of terminology. I also notice that most European languages use a similar term: Controriforma in Italian, Contrarreforma in Spanish, Gegenreformation in German, Contre-Réforme in French. It seems both firmly and widely established.Campolongo (talk) 15:00, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Revision as of 17:55, 26 February 2009 (edit) (undo) 126.96.36.199 (talk)
Removing the unsourced text: "In the end of the Reformation Martian Luther announced, at his death bed, that they were better off under the church."
As it has nothing to do with the article, and a reasonably sourced blog entry denies it: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2007/01/did-luther-recant-on-his-deathbed.html
Title change definitely needed
Leaving the title "Counter Reformation" on the pretext that it is "commonly used" is equivalent to naming an article "America" instead of "The United States of America", "Flu" instead of "Influenza", or "Aryan" instead of "Indo-European"...
To start with, the Protestant Reformation is itself a misnomer. A "reform" in any community, society, or organization is something initiated by existing leadership, using existing channels, in accordance with existing rules - e.g. Catholic Reformation this article deals with, Gorbachev's reforms in the USSR, Deng Xiaoping's reforms in China, healthcare reforms made by governments, education reforms etc. But when some lower-ranking members of any organization claim authority and take things into their own hands locally, capture buildings, expulse their superiors etc - this is should be called a mutiny, rebelion, etc. What if someone today enters, say, a City Hall, throws out all the officials and starts issuing "reforms"? Will we consider that guy a "reformer"??? Thus, correct names would be "Protestant Revolt" and "Catholic Reformation". But even though Protestants incorrectly (as discussed above) called their movement a "Reformation", it should not prevent us from accurately describing the events of this article as a "Catholic Reformation", for the second wrong will not make things right.
Wikipedia should be primarily concerned with its titles be as accurate and as descriptive as possible, and not use titles generated by old-days political propaganda, just because they are "popular", especially as it is possible for everyone searching for "Counter Reformation" to be directed to "Catholic Reformation". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vox Veritatae (talk • contribs) 10:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- There should be two articles: Catholic reformation with the contents of this article, and Counter-Reformation about the time-period called so generally by the historians (see the discussion above and under). The term "reformation" is a generally accepted term of history science (not as only colloquial "flu" etc.). --Mmh (talk) 06:30, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
The Wikopedia article on the counter-reformation must include a major section on the attacks by Catholics on Protestants. The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary defines "counter-reformation" as "... the movement in the Church of Rome which followed on the Prostetant Reformation." This sense of the term is wider than and not synonymous with The Catholic Revival or the Catholic Reform as the first line of the article suggests. The Oxford definition certainly reflects the approach taken in my university course on European history. I fear that the authors in the WikiProject Catholicism are slanting the article towards the views of the Roman Catholic Church. This is a disservice to the entire Wikopedia undertaking. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 19:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
- Were you able to write such a section? I have already written the same argument above, but my English is not good enough to write it. --Mmh (talk) 10:27, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
- during the reformation, everyone attacked everyone, except some radicals. It was only after the Wars of Religion, where the idea of tolerance came about. the counter/catholic-reformation article should focus on the changes in the Catholic Church. one thing I hate about wikipedia, is every time someone sees a bias, they accuse some obvious group, really that is unnecessary. Heretics were executed long before the council of trent, so, yes it occurred during the time period of the counter-reformation. If you view the counter-reformation as the Roman Catholic Church's response to and attempt to stop the Protestant Reformation, then yes it should be all about prosecution of protestants. however, and this is the reason that scholar's call it the Catholic Reformation, it is the Catholic version of the Protestant Reformation. The Catholic-Reformation should be seen as Catholic's saying to themselves, the protestants raise some good points. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 05:56, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
In Council of Trent Section, it says: "as epistle of st. James states...", is St. james stands for Authorized King James Version for Bible? if so why it is not linked to the specified page? also where is the citation?, which epistle?, the number of chapter and sentence?? thx Wafaashohdy (talk) 11:24, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Devotional, Observantine, and Legalist traditions
There are references in the article to devotional, observantine, and legalist traditions, but these are not defined. The links are to either to dictionary definitions of devotion and legalism, or to Franciscans in the case of observantine (an article in which the word "observantine" does not occur). What are these words referring to in the context of this article? If observantine is a synonym for Fransiscan, I don't understand what is the specifically Fransiscan influence on the development of the Jesuits. Underalms (talk) 16:40, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Spain and the Catholic Reformation
While I realize that this article has decided to limit itself greatly with the consensus holding that the counter-reformation title should be retained, it nonetheless is true that part of the reason catholic reformation is currently favoured is that the movement to change the church didn't merely start at trent but began even before the council of trent. this is no less evident than the changes in piety in spain, where the reformation itself ended up having little effect. To that end I question why the inquisition isn't even mentioned in this article when it is an integral part of the catholic reformation. indeed it wasn't just a political activity but also combined spiritual movements and an increase in popular piety which fought against many of the abuses the reformation reacted against.
Early calendrical work
If work on the calendar causes a scientific revolution, then the calendrical work of the Babylonians and Egyptians must have done so in 3,000 B.C. The Maya of Central America did some work on the calendar without starting a scientific revolution. There is a feeble attempt at sarcasm in the article, from James Burke and Kchishol1970. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 13:01, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
LeRoy Froom reliable?
It seems to me that LeRoy Froom may not be a reliable source for this article. He is quoted as writing that preterism and futurism were used as ruses by Jesuits to argue with Protestants during this time period. However, Wikipedia lists preterism as developed in the 3rd century, and futurism not developed until the 20th century. The latter (article) does not seem related to theology.
Froom is a Seventh Day Adventist. That religion is listed as believing (among other things) that: "(a) the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon; (b) the pope is the Antichrist; (c) in the last days, Sunday worship will be "the mark of the beast.."
Froom is reliable. His WP page quotes several book reviews which state that despite his SDA views, his books are invaluable resources for religious and church historians. Froom documents, with quotes and photos of documents, Jesuit sources that show that Preterism and Futurism were developed for the Counter-Reformation. Preterism does have its seeds in the 3rd century, but it was not fully developed and named Preterism until the 16 century specifically to counter the protestant reformation. The wikilink to Futurism should be changed to Futurism (Christianity). Those who read Froom know that his works are exhaustive and largely unbiased. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 05:23, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Needs indepth section on why counter-reformation was a flop in England and Sweden
I'm being flattering to Rome in calling it a flop, the counter-reformation didn't even get to leave a scratch (: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 07:05, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- See Cuthbert Mayne. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 11:13, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
"Roman Catholic" is standard term among Catholic scholars
I looked at the reliable sources and find "Roman Catholic" is used without any problems as a standard term. I browsed the titles in some self-identified Catholic scholarly journals to demonstrate this: 1) "Faith and Leadership: The Papacy and the Roman Catholic Church" in Catholic Historical Review. (Autumn 2015); 2) "The Feast Of Corpus Christi In Mikulov, Moravia: Strategies Of Roman Catholic Counter-Reform (1579-86)" in Catholic Historical Review (Oct 2010); 3) "Divided Friends: Portraits of the Roman Catholic Modernist Crisis in the United States." in U.S. Catholic Historian (Fall 2013); 4) "The church and the seer: Veronica Lueken, the Bayside movement, and the Roman Catholic hierarchy" in American Catholic Studies (Fall 2012); 5) "Incompatible with God's Design: A History of the Women's Ordination Movement in the U.S. Roman Catholic Church." Catholic Historical Review (Oct 2013); 6) "The Rise and Fall of Triumph: The History of a Radical Roman Catholic Magazine, 1966-1976." Catholic Historical Review (Spring 2015); 7) "Mary, star of hope: Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary in the United States from 1854 to 2010, as seen through the lens of Roman Catholic Marian congregational song." American Catholic Studies (Spring 2013); 8) "Roman Catholic Ecclesiastics In English North America, 1610-58: A Comparative Assessment" CCHA Study Sessions (Canadian Catholic Historical Association). 1999; 9) "Gender, Catholicism, and Spirituality: Women and the Roman Catholic Church in Britain and Europe, 1200-1900." American Catholic Studies (Fall 2012); 10) "Master'S Theses And Doctoral Dissertations On Roman Catholic History In The United States: A Selected Bibliography" U.S. Catholic Historian (Jan 1987). Rjensen (talk) 10:01, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Orphaned references in Counter-Reformation
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Counter-Reformation's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "britannica.com":
- From Venice: "Venice (Italy) :: Economy – Britannica Online Encyclopedia". Britannica.com. Retrieved 22 April 2010.
- From Florence: "Florence (Italy)". Britannica Concise Encyclopedia. Britannica.com. Retrieved 22 January 2010.
- From Italy: "Italy – Britannica Online Encyclopedia". Britannica.com. Retrieved 2 August 2010.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 20:41, 7 September 2016 (UTC)