Talk:Country music

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

Sciences humaines.svg This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 February 2019 and 3 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rrerastephanie.

Above undated message substituted from assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

George Strait[edit]

Should a picture of him be in this article? He’s one of the best selling artists of this genre, and has more Billboard #1’s hits than any other musician in the world (60 to be exact). Averagetennesseejoe (talk) 04:31, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Problematic, non-cited declaration[edit]

Paragraph four of this article has some real problems, Quote:

"The term country music is used today to describe many styles and subgenres. The origins of country music are the folk music of working class white Americans, who blended popular songs, Irish and Celtic fiddle tunes, traditional English ballads, cowboy songs, and various musical traditions from European immigrants."

That second sentence ignores the influence of African and Native American contributors to country music, and falsely asserts that its origins are wholly "working class" - when the actual history appears to be that wealthy, landed individuals had a role in its development by sponsoring dances and providing quality musical instruments. Both slaves and free laborers were taught the traditional music and learned the instruments. Slaves took the "old world" tunes home and played them informally, adding African instrumentation as well, for instance the banjo. Slaves and poor free people played these tunes and tunes of their own devices on their own instruments, some of which were homemade instruments. The music truly developed among very poor, down and out groups of people on plantations and in the Appalachian mountains, as well as the "working class" in the coal mines and other industries.

I think the fourth paragraph of this article, quoted above, is inaccurate and misleading. Although the contributions of disenfranchised groups has been largely ignored in popular histories, there can be no doubt that the contributions were enormous, particular the African contributions, as even an African instrument (the banjo) has survived and thrived in country music. Native American influences are more difficult to trace, but at any rate, that paragraph as it stands now should be removed, or altered and citations provided.

--MarksCarts (talk) 14:52, 7 October 2018 (UTC) MarksCarts[reply]

Recommended Sub-Section Changes - Topic too big for one page[edit]

This page may need review because it is causing confusion. It might work better if the subsections were by decades. The decade of 1920-1930 was different than 1930-1940 years. Each decade would not exist without the previous decade. Every decade did expand, evolve, and spawn country music into new styles. By considering it in “generations” it leads the readers to think the music has evolved from the original format. It has not. A listener may think they are listening to the 1930’s Grand Ole Opry when listening to some of Jon Pardi or Miranda Lambert’s newest songs. Chris Stapleton's music is the example of country that is true country for any decades. But should that be discussed on the topic page of "Country Music" topic page? Probably not, instead link it out to his page.

George Strait, Willie Nelson, Dolly Parton are legends but except a few songs their music is still the same from early in their careers. It is not unusual for a young fan to hear a new song by an artist and then realize they have years of previous songs to enjoy. At the same time singers like Reba McEntire have adapted her music to appeal to a younger base allowing her to establish several decades of songs that appeal to all ages.

Country music is also a difference in its delivery. Whereas other genres see artist  “go on tour” when they drop a new album, country music fans have the luxury of their favorites going on tour, every year. They tend to follow the rodeo circuit and state/region fairground patterns. Luke Bryan hit the scene in 2007 and has released nine albums. He’s been touring since 2008. Stopping only long enough to record and see his family. George Strait’s tour schedule was even more impressive considering he had been touring since 1981. His music changed/evolved over that time but it is still the same.

What is considered country music has changed because the age of the listener has changed. Elvis Presley may have been the King of Rock-n-Roll but you won’t hear his music on the rock or even pop stations unless it is a rare throwback nostalgia day. His music is a regular on country stations and playlists. The era of Loretta Lynn and Patsy Cline ruled the airways and set a generational change and led up to the burning of bras in the late 1960’s, still relevant today, but still sounds like the 1930's.

The listener will find current country music is all over the place. Some of the biggest stars right now are from the South - Tennessee. Georgia, and Florida. You listen to their music but you may easily mistake them for a band from the early years of Molly Hatchet or Allman Brothers. That is because their parents (my age group) raised them listening to those groups. Their music is solid 1970’s Southern Rock. This is also another way country music is different. Brantley Gilbert is a top seller but only tours regionally. His music has not made it into other areas yet.

For the record, true country music fans would find a page on “country music” with a subsection devoted to an individual artist disrespectful. Just because they have had a number ones and big sales does not mean they are considered true Country. Let their stats and accomplishments shine on their individual pages. Country music is subjective but to the country music fans it means staying true to the music. Yes, we are in the age of "cross-overs" but can they sustain the art of country music.

Giving individual contributor’s like Conway Twitty or Taylor Swift could distract the reader from the first thought of “What is Country Music?” Yes, they had the number one songs for a certain amount of time but they do not qualify as fair because we did not have digital distribution through the decades. Unless we are going to embed a equation formula that allows for value data to be updated based on distribution, currency, and global impact, not a fair comparison. This includes Garth Brooks. Legendary, but his impact is considered negative by some because of how it changed country music from the Grand Ole Opry format to stadium status.

I found some information on this page was inaccurate. The decline of country music in the 1960s? That is the years of Conway Twitty, Loretta Lynn, and Porter Wagoner. There was an seismic shift in everything in the 1960's. It would be unfair to describe it as a decline.

Buy focusing on the decades and the different styles of country music (without elaboration) highlighting those specific years we would allow the reader to gain knowledge without overwhelming them.  By using a Learn More feature, We can show the artists who were prominent during each decade, then have links to those individual pages. Using the same feature we can have links to other different types of country. Trying to breakdown styles like Bakersfield Country to a subsection just leads to confusion. Allow the reader to follow that link on as a choice not as a static amount of information they must read through to try and understand the topic.

This would simplify the page but allow the page to be a guide through country music with examples for them to explorer versus a crash course on country music which is overwhelming. Zarilla (talk) 05:36, 10 November 2018 (UTC)Zarilla[reply]

problems at a glance[edit]

First off, how is it that country music has been granted "generations" in its evolution? In Rock music specific reference is made only to "second generations" of subgenres heavy metal and punk, and then only in a passing manner, and there is no such pigeonholing for Jazz or Blues. The "generations" are in no way obvious or natural or intuitive: I sincerely doubt that the country musicians of the early 1930s started thinking of themselves as "the second generation." Given the centrality of this conceit to the article, I challenge its maintenance and demand that a very specific source for the origin of those divisions be presented — and NOT merely citing someone else (certainly NOT multiple "creators"!!) who might have mentioned something somewhat similar in a book or article — else the divisions themselves are blatant original research and all mention of "generations" ought be scrubbed. As mentioned above, decade-by-decade structure makes somewhat more sense, though only somewhat.

(Effort ought to have been made to make this somehow conform with the amazingly stupid List of country performers by era — stupid because someone like Merle Haggard can appear in FIVE "eras," redundancy that gratuitously inflates that trivia pile.)

Second, aside from passing reference to Regional Mexican, there is virtually no mention of country music in any language other than English. At the very least, Jim Reeves certainly had a huge following in South Africa and recorded a couple of albums in Afrikaans. Given the degree of music fanaticism in Japan for various genres, there certainly must be Japanese country lyrics; they definitely have produced credible bluegrass instrumentals for decades.

Third, whole chunks are pretty much unsupported personal essay, and vulnerable to outright deletion. Start with Country music#Performers and shows and Country music#Latin America.

That brings me to a fourth point: how is it that a clearly pop or rock or blues tune (nowadays even hip-hop) becomes "country" simply by being sung with a nasally twang? Jim Reeves (among others) went quickly from rock-&-roll/rockabilly to pop, yet everyone would agree that his entire catalogue is "country." Marty Robbins was by turns in rock-&-roll, pop, "Polynesian," and ballads about men shooting each other. Basically, a city-raised kid who's never seen a horse up close can establish a career by glorifying various "blue collar" and "rural" stereotypes for the amusement of comfortably wealthy managers whose idea of "my country roots" consists entirely of driving the Lincoln Navigator to the Grand Canyon for three days a year.

Fifth, the article is entirely too long. At 130K, it's too bloated to read through and too bulky to navigate easily with mobiles. At a guesstimate it could be improved by paring it back to ~85K. Anyone who feels driven to preserve the content should figure out how to split it.

And in the process, big gray paragraph swathes ought to be trimmed down and broken up, and some effort made to reduce overreliance on one-paragraph sections (for that matter, two-paragraph too).

Finally, as noted in a previous post above, there's an underlying (propagandistic) thread running through this article that country music is somehow representative of "the little guy," the working man. This is romantic claptrap. For instance, the genre demonstrates a recurring theme of wholesale theft from the music of African-Americans — slaves entertaining their owners, minstrel shows, "blues modes," rapping — yet excluding black composers, musicians, and performers: aside from Charley Pride and Darius Rucker, name a non-white country artist. Clearly, there's basis to argue that country's "little guy" MUST be white (at least mostly, certainly not Italian!) and Christian (at least nominally). Country is proudly reactionary, and leans heavily upon Reaganesque "good ol' days" myths such as discussed in The Way Things Never Were (1999). For the purposes of a Wikipedia article, any furtherance of the mythos MUST be clearly attributed to specific sources, and then as their mere opinion unless backed by credible research.

For starters.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 18:31, 14 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of Portal:Country music for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Country music is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Country music until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 17:59, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Complicated history with regard to race[edit]

User:Kerry_H1 added a very important sentence, which I will quote below.

The genre has had a complicated history with regard to race in the U.S.
  1. "Country music reckons with racial stereotypes and its future". ABC News. Retrieved February 22, 2021.
  2. "Morgan Wallen and country music's race issue is no surprise". CNN. Retrieved February 22, 2021.
  3. "Country Music Continues To Confront Racism". NPR. Retrieved February 22, 2021.

I like where this is headed, but I think it deserves its own section. Especially broadening the topical issues of race in Tennessee's music industry, which deserves note. We should however highlight that in the Western music scenes this was not the case, as indigenous and Latin communities have created entire subgenres that thrive. I'm shocked that there isn't an article on Navajo country music, or that several of the New Mexico music artists continue to lack articles on this site. (talk) 08:50, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think the work being done now on the section will be much more productive. Perhaps we can expand into a more broad "criticism" section? (talk) 23:42, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cliff Carlisle...citation and text in question[edit]

The section on the "first generation" of country artists ends with a sentence on Cliff Carlisle that identifies him as "hillbilly", whereas his WP article makes no mention of the term. I don't doubt that as a yodeler he may qualify, but it would help to have a source to support the claim. The citation that's provided links to the Vernon Dalhart article on pages 14-15 in Tony Russell's Country Music Originals, which doesn't mention Carlisle at all. Matters worse: the sentence says Carlisle (among others) recorded blues throughout the 1920s, which is true of others but not Carlisle since he didn't begin recording until 1930. BTW, Russell's book does have an article on Carlisle, on page 163. I have no idea what's in it because I don't have an internet archive account and can't access the book's full text. Allreet (talk) 00:38, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence I just mentioned - errors and all - is repeated in the History section, though it adds that Carlisle recorded into the 1930s. Allreet (talk) 00:56, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The book mentions that he started recording in 1930 (the citation covered a number of pages, not just pages 14-15), so we should adjust that. Hzh (talk) 14:56, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]