Talk:Craniosacral therapy

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The American Cancer Society[edit]

As CranioSacral Therapy has never claimed to cure cancer, I'm unclear why The American Cancer Society leads off as an "expert" source in the first paragraph of CST's definition. And to attribute the 'quackery' label to them is even more perplexing. I've also noticed that several attempts to gently revise this paragraph continues to be rejected. Is there another avenue that we can take to create a more neutral definition? Awmerrell (talk) 17:43, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Try raising it at WP:FT/N (hint: it's neutral as-is). Alexbrn (talk) 17:44, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for coming to the Talk page Awmerrell. The answer to your question is kind of involved. But here it goes. Everything in Wikipedia must be supported by what we call a "reliable source" - people cannot write whatever they want here - it has to be a "summary of accepted knowledge", as we say, that is based on a.. reliable source (or "RS" for short). We have a guideline that covers general content that you can find here: WP:RS. But for content about health in Wikipedia, we have a slightly different guideline that is here: WP:MEDRS. What that guideline says, is that content about health, needs to be based on an independent, recent review in the biomedical literature, or a statement by an independent major medical or scientific body. For CAM-type interventions like CST, where itis hard to find reviews in the biomedical literature and our usual go-to scientific and medical authorities don't say much, we have found ACS to be invaluable as a reliable, independent source describing these CAM treatments and their relative safety and efficacy. That is why we use it. About what you said, unfortunately some people do say that CST could be used to treat cancer. But I agree with you that those folks are rare. You will notice that that ACS page mostly talks about CST as a complement to medical care - as something to help people deal with pain, etc. Anyway, that is the "why" and as much of the "what" as I can say briefly. We can chat more about how Wikipedia works generally at your Talk page. That would probably be a good thing, while you are figuring Wikipedia out. Jytdog (talk) 19:07, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
The ACS published a book on CAM which is slightly more recent than their archived page(s). I'll dig it out and update the ref ... Alexbrn (talk) 19:08, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Re: Time Magazine's "America's Next Wave of Innovators"[edit]

I didn't want to wade in when I haven't worked on this article before. But I noticed that an editor that Jytdog is working with in regard to potential COI issues was reverted (here) with the comment "Upledger is not the subject of this article". This factoid about Upledger is repeated many times on the web, and I was able to find a link to the TIME article in question, which was not properly cited in the reverted link. Here's a corrected cite:

Greenwald, John (April 16, 2001). "Alternative Medicine / Craniosacral Therapy: A New Kind of Pulse". Time Magazine. Retrieved April 8, 2016. 

I'm not proposing one way or the other whether this is valid content for the article, I just wanted to save everybody some Googling if this claim comes up again. This article was part of a special section titled "TIME 100: The Next Wave/Innovators" which you can see in the table of contents for that issue. Carry on. --Krelnik (talk) 19:45, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

A couple of inserts for Craniosacral Therapy Reception?[edit]

1. In 1999, The Upledger Foundation conducted an intensive-therapy research program for 24 combat-scarred Vietnam veterans suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). The study employed a scientific protocol co-designed with the West Palm Beach Veterans Administration medical center. Treatment focused on CranioSacral Therapy and SomatoEmotional Release.®

On the first day of the research program, subjects underwent a craniosacral system evaluation, a videotaped psychiatric interview, and psychological testing by an independent licensed psychologist. Each of these evaluations was repeated on the last day of the program.

The psychological assessment battery consisted of five instruments: Mississippi Scale for Combat Related Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (Mississippi), Trauma Symptom Inventory (TSI), Quality of Life Questionnaire (QLQ), Brief Symptom Inventory (BSI), and Beck Hopelessness Scale (BHS). All five instruments were administered on the first day of the program. The BSI and the BHS were administered on the last day of the program and again one month post treatment. The entire assessment battery is also scheduled to be given again at a future date.

At the program's conclusion, the independent psychologist's report confirmed that the veterans "experienced fewer symptoms, most notably those related to obsessive/compulsive thoughts and behaviors, depression, lack of motivation, feelings of alienation and withdrawal, and in the total number and severity of general symptoms." What's more, the report rated these milestones as statistically significant, noting there was more than a 95 percent correlation between the veterans' improvements and the CranioSacral Therapy they received at UI HealthPlex.

2.The Colorado Board of Medical Examiners vs. W. M. Raemer, D.D.S., Court of Appeals, State of Colorado, Case No. 87CA1589, March 22, 1990. The unanimous ruling of the Appellate Court, in favor of W. M. Raemer, D.D.S., states that CranioSacral Therapy is an effective form of treatment for TMJ dysfunction. As such, it was ruled that dentists in Colorado are allowed to use CranioSacral Therapy for treatment in the scope of their practices. This conclusion was made after enough study to unanimously satisfy the Colorado Supreme Court.Awmerrell (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for making a proposal! Small thing - we don't use the registered trademark symbol in WIkipedia. See MOS:TM. Much bigger thing - you didn't cite any sources. Everything in Wikipedia needs a reliable source. For anything about health, the source has to comply with WP:MEDRS (the source has to be a review from the biomedical literature or a statement by a major health authority like the NIH, CDC, or the NHS in the UK); for non-health things the source has to comply with WP:RS - in any case it should be independent - not a self-published thing like the foundation's website. Jytdog (talk) 20:34, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

New Craniosacral Therapy Research (Document on Regenexx® web site)[edit]

We find the term "quackery" used quite often so it was interesting to find this article by an MD that has done significant research on CST. Perhaps we could add this to alexbrn's American Cancer Society's paragraph? Go to:

to read the articleAwmerrell (talk) 19:20, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Not a reliable source, see WP:MEDRS. Alexbrn (talk) 20:01, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
Why in the world would you change my Title on a Talk page? Balanced feedback is appreciated but I feel that the following report was more valid than I first thought: (talk) 20:13, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
What, you think "This Duck Doesn't Quack Anymore" was more accurate? One study doesn't establish craniosacral therapy as not fringe. --tronvillain (talk) 21:34, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
It's one study: Craniosacral Therapy for the Treatment of Chronic Neck Pain, single blinded with "light touch sham treatment", and only one of the therapists did the "sham" treatment. It may indicate that the treatment had some clinical effectiveness (at eight weeks, though not at twenty), but it doesn't establish that CST actually works as described - as the article says It remains unclear whether CST techniques actually affect the indicated fascial structures and joints, and if so, whether these changes in turn would result in quantifiable physiological responses. For all we know, a good neck and shoulder massage might have as much of an effect. --tronvillain (talk) 21:54, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
not a reliable source per MEDRS; not even close. Jytdog (talk) 01:15, 29 September 2016 (UTC)