Talk:Cultural Muslim

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Zeeshan, thanks for making this article. We can improve it if you can find some internet links on the topic to put in an exteneral links seciton. or to use to cite things. Its kinda of odd to have an entire article without a single citation. Look forward to working with you in the future :) 12.2.239.15 14:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Done. --Zeeshanhasan 13:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Practicing Muslim[edit]

There is a case to be made for simply allowing those that practice to define themselves, rather than those that do not. A German Christian is more likely to 'I am German' than I am a Christian. When it religious influence is queried, the response is usually, 'I am a practicing Christian'.

As a secular, rationalist humanist, I would rather not have labels. Labels arise in context, when questioned thus: What nationality, what religion, what sect, are you practicing, etc. Genuine secular-humanists find cultural affinity as claustrophobic as religious affinity.

There are a range of adjectives for those who ascribe to religion in various strengths - practicing, fundamentalist, non-practicing, etc. The concept of 'Cultural Muslim' does not advance does not advance our understanding, it appears to be an attempt to cling onto an identity which is riddled with conceptual problems. A person who is an adherent of Islam is a Muslim. A person who is not an adherent of Islam is not a Muslim. There is no such thing as cultural Islam.

The concept of a non-believer from the perspective of Islam is also at best, unappealing at worse, rabidly racist. The words Kafir and Kuffar are loaded and full of the worse kinds of stigma. Would a describing yourself as a 'Cultural Muslim' allow ex-Muslims to escape such stigma? Would 'Cultural Muslims' challenge the sigma? The most beneficial tensions in society are those of the 'other'. Those that were slaves, serfs, immigrants, etc. They were the ones that experienced racism and exclusion and fought to make the society a great deal more egalitarian.

Allow believers to describe themselves in every diminishing forms of exclusivity but describe yourself with biggest, most inclusive denominator - a human. Wear the Kafir badge with pride! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.145.225.143 (talk) 16:59, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

This page doesn't make any sense[edit]

I'm going to use the idea of a Cultural Jew as grounds to propose why this article shouldn't exist. This article seems to be reflexive of the fact that there is such a thing as a Cultural Jew. There isn't such a thing as a cultural Muslim. The only reason people consider Cultural Jews to exist is because the Jewish faith dictates anyone with Jewish ancestry through their mother as a Jew and if someone becomes an Athesit they still carry the tag of being a Jew. There is no such law in Islam and to say anyone that does not subscribe to the Islamic Faith is a Muslim of any kind is an abhorrent error in usage of terms.

Raki?[edit]

Why was Raki changed to şerbet?? Greatal386 23:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"Kuffar" does not mean "apostates"[edit]

I have edited the Kabylia section which previously stated that "Kuffar" is Arabic for "apostates". It is not. The Arabic word "Kuffar" is the plural of "Kafir" which means "disbeliever". An apostate is called "Murtad" in Arabic. In Islamic terminology the "Kafir" is one who has openly rejected Islam. The "Murtad" is a type of "Kafir", but specifically someone who was a practicing and believing Muslim who abandoned Islam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.200.208.170 (talk) 21:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

(overlong rant removed; the article does not say that Bosnian Muslims are not Muslims, it says that some Bosnians designated as "Muslim" for official purposes may not be active adherents of that faith) <eleland/talkedits> 22:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

How dare you are to tell me I am not true believer of Islamic faith just because I am Bosnian![edit]

Quote: " In non-Muslim societies, such Muslims may subscribe to, and be vested with, secular identities. The Muslims of Bosnia, descendants of Slavs who converted to Islam under Ottoman rule, are not always noted for attendance at prayer, abstention from alcohol, seclusion of women and other social practices associated with believing Muslims in other parts of the world. They were officially designated as Muslims to distinguish them from (Orthodox) Slavs and (Catholic) Croats under the former Yugoslavian communist regime. The label 'Muslim' indicates their ethnicity and group allegiance, but not necessarily their religious beliefs. In this limited context (which may apply to other Muslim minorities in Europe and Asia), there may be no contradiction between being Muslim and being atheist or agnostic, just as there are Jewish atheists and Jewish agnostics... It should be noted, however, that this secular definition of Muslim (sometimes the terms 'cultural Muslim' or 'nominal Muslim' are used) is very far from being uncontested."

You have no righ to speak about Bosnian muslims in this way!

You have no right to declare Bosnia as non-MUSLIM society.

Bosnian muslims were not Slavs!

You don't know anything about bosnian-herzegovinian people!

You have no right to declare anyone as non believer!

You can't judge belonging and level of true Islamic faith of Bosnians.

Bosnains were brutally tortured because they were members of islamic faith!

You are calling them now "non believers"?

You have no right to measure the level of their faith and their religious beliefs.

You have no right to compare them to other 'believing Muslims'.

Who are other 'Believing Muslims'?

In other parts of world people "all people" are believers? True followers of Islam?

Why did you delete my post? Did I take your country as an example of Muslims non-believers?

What you do is unislamic!

What do you know about Bosnia? You don't know anything!

signature: how dare you are? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.209.233.108 (talk) 23:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

When you write "you", you are presumably addressing the author of the quote with which you begin your comment. That quote is a literal quotation from page 3 of the book Islam: A Very Short Introduction by Malise Ruthven. However, it is far from sure that Dr. Ruthven is reading the comments on this talk page, so your remarks may be lost in that respect. Before you get too indignant, please note that the text does not say that the Muslims of Bosnia in general should not be considered to be Muslims on the basis of their religious beliefs, but only that among the Muslims of Bosnia there may be individuals who are identified as Muslims more for their their ethnicity and group allegiance than for their religious beliefs. Do you claim that this is false, in other words, do you think that each and every person who is considered a Bosnian Muslim, rather than a Bosnian Serb or a Bosnian Croat, is classified that way because of their beliefs?  --Lambiam 09:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any proof and evidence that what you have stated is correct? No you don't. Do you have any research to back up your statements about Bosnian Nation? No you don't. What does a very short introduction quote proves? Nothing. It's just someone's opinion without any facts, and you used and abused it to define the entire group of people based on their religious belonging from one European country that you have never seen in your life, not to mention experience. You should be banned from doing this page as you have no knowledge on Bosnianherzegovinan nation, and stay away from mentioning my homeland Bosnia propagating your discriminatory ideas of cultural Muslims and measuring and comparing someone's faith. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.34.77 (talk) 22:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Ethnicity: Albanian[edit]

I added a comment in the concept section.

The label 'Muslim' indicates their ethnicity and group allegiance, but not necessarily their religious beliefs. (Their ethnicity is officially Albanian - a wikipedia editor)

I just think it's astonishing that a Muslim scholar is so ignorant in this subject.

--Zslevi (talk) 19:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Where do you get the notion from that the ethnicity of the Bosnian Muslims is "officially" Albanian? Albanians speak the Albanian language. Bosnian Muslims speak mostly Bosnian and generally don't understand Albanian at all.  --Lambiam 22:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Islam is a religion, the followers are called Muslims[edit]

Therefore you can't ethnically be a Muslim, it's not possible.

My grandmother is Bosnian and speaks Bosnian - Bosniak is not a language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.73.159 (talk) 05:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

'Traditional Islam' redirect[edit]

Traditional Islam seems to redirect to the Cultural Muslim article. I dont know if thats right, since 'Traditional Islam' is generally what we use to talk about those who practice Tasawwuf; a quick google search will back me up on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BelalHaniffa (talkcontribs) 09:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Autobiographical article[edit]

Looks like an autobiography, with unverified claims and original research, reflecting the experiences and actual practices of the author(s). Tagged "original research". Behemoth (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Strange statement[edit]

The concept of a cultural Muslim, someone who identifies as a Muslim yet is not religious, is not universally accepted in the Islamic religious community.

This is a strange statement. Why would or should a "concept" be universally accepted? It exists, that's all that matters. In other words, some Muslims may identify as secular or atheist. Whether others accept this or not is irrelevant. Viriditas (talk) 02:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)